NintendoLogic

I never said that Bryan wasn't over. Just not as over as he was a few months ago.

It appears to me that the reactions he gets these days aren't nearly as enthusiastic as the ones he was getting before and immediately after Summerslam. He still gets the Yes chants, but that's more of a Pavlovian reaction at this point.

I don't know that this is the case. Bryan's pretty clearly less over after months of being laid out and screwed over than he was immediately after Summerslam.

How is Bryan raging against the machine by joining the Wyatts? I thought it was implied that it was the Authority who sicced the Wyatts on him in the first place.

I like Punk a lot, but I don't really think he was all that good until he got to WWE. He's certainly improved a lot from the days when he was doing rolling elbows and falcon arrows as mid-match transition moves. Even now, he'll occasionally give in to his worst indy-ish instincts, like in the Jericho match at Payback. With that said, his hits far outweigh his misses. The match with Lesnar is my MOTY by a comfortable margin, and the Rock matches were Cena/Khali-level miracle carry jobs. Also, I have no problem with him being a dick to his fans. Wrestling fans, particularly smarky ones, are the scum of the earth. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't heap enough abuse on them.

The vertical suplex has always held a certain amount of mystique for me due to the Pro Wrestling game for the NES (the game called it a brainbuster because it was Japanese). It's the most powerful basic move in the game-so much so, in fact, that you couldn't even execute it unless your opponent was sufficiently worn down. I recall unleashing piledriver after piledriver until I heard the whistle signifying that my opponent was depleted, at which point it was brainbuster time. You know, I've never understood why the Northern Lights Bomb was named such. It's not a powerbomb, it's a brainbuster. That is, a brainbuster brainbuster, not a vertical suplex brainbuster. Fuck, wrestling is confusing.

I liked Regal/Cesaro a lot more than I thought I would. I think Regal's become a much smarter wrestler as he's gotten older.

He was big and ugly. I'm increasingly convinced that's all it really took for Americans to get spots in Japan in the 80s and 90s.

You mean besides the fact that all the Shield matches are basically interchangeable?

There was plenty of that in 2001 too. To take two examples I came across recently, the Austin/Regal strap match and the Rock/Jericho vs. Austin/Angle tag match from the Smackdown right before Survivor Series would stand out as strong matches in any year. I haven't really seen either match pimped much, which leads me to believe that there are plenty of other hidden gems from that year.

2001 is one of the best years in company history from an in-ring standpoint. In fact, you could argue that the Smackdown Six era represented a step backward from what they were doing that year.

So what's the 1999 WWF MOTY? I remember Rock/Austin from Backlash holding up OK the last time I watched it.

These days, it seems that pimping New Generation/Attitude Era WWF is more contrarian than praising matches from the past decade of WWE.

If TNA really was paying AJ Styles $300K a year, that is absolutely insane. Last I heard, New Japan wasn't even paying Tanahashi that much.

I was actually going to point out that Angle is a good technical wrestler when he wants to be. From memory, his matches with Benoit at Unforgiven and Eddy at WM20 had some pretty slick mat exchanges, at least by WWE standards. He'd probably have more fans here if he did more fireman's carries and fewer pop-up superplexes.

What was so great about the psychology of Angle-Benoit? I fact, what even was the psychology of Angle-Benoit? Apart from "two über workrate guys workrate the fuck out of each other." My memory of the match is that the psychology is non-existent. They just take turns doing moves, lots of moves. There's no story involved in any of it, and even the moves themselves werent that novel or interesting. they just did stuff. Going into my most recent viewing of it, I figured the overkill finisher-fest would piss me off the most. In fact, that was the best part of the match because at least it was exciting. Everything up until that point was just...doing moves, and not in a very interesting way. I get liking the match, and I especially get liking the match if you're into the Kurt Angle, go go go, let's do lots of MOVES style, and liking it for its athleticism. I do not get the claim that the match has excellent psychology. I've talked a lot about this match in the past and I like to now just watch wrestling or put time into my other interests instead of just getting too much into analysis and psychology talk. Thinking this way eventually hurts the enjoyment of wrestling imo and I've seen this happen to fans. I like thinking of matches as legit when you get lost in the moment, kind of like how an announcer would view it. I also don't like being a critic at times so my talk gets limited. I even delete posts after writing a good amount of words at times. But since you asked, I'll be respectful and try to remember some of my thoughts and feelings on the match. I've seen this match a good amount but haven't seen it in awhile so I'm forgetting some stuff. Some things I'd like to point out ..... The sharpshooter wether used by Benoit or not at this time was not a Bret Hart end of match type finisher. Benoit's had some power and some danger and although used some (It was actually after wrestling Benoit that the Rock started using it) it was definitely not a finisher. I would say this match actually upped the danger of Benoit's sharpshooter in the WWF because the importance this match gave it. It wasn't until the A-Train match at No Mercy 2003 that the sharpshooter became a lethal finisher for Benoit. This was when its value upped. Psychology to me exists in every single match that has ever occurred. It is the why. It can be "good", "ok" or "bad" psychology but it is there. Everything is psychology. Benoit felt the beginning of the match could have been more intense. Although very proud of this match, he wanted it to be better. Okay, so back to why this match works. I will try to remember. `1)The flow is terrific and flow to me is essential in enjoying a wrestling match. And this one has it. The beginning part of the match is not as strong in this department but is fine. The second part of the match has an A+ flow and is totally congruent to the type of match they were going for. Great timing, rhythm and escalation here. Overall, I say Unforgiven has a better flow as that is A+ from start to finish in that department. Wrestlemania has flow too and is a great match but is not as strong as the Unforgiven and Rumble classics. Also, the match after the Rumble on Smackdown was fantastic for flow. Flow to me is a humongous part of psychology and absolutely essential on how I enjoy and rate wrestling matches. 2)To make this point, I want to take a look at the 3 most well known Angle vs Benoit matches. Mania, Unforgiven and the Rumble. All wrestled the way they should've been at the time they should have been. This actually shows restraint on Angle vs Benoit's part which is something some of their critics say they don't have against each other. You can't wrestle Unforgiven's match at the Rumble or Mania's match at Unforgiven etc. And that is smart psychology. From the very get go Angle vs Benoit was all about one upmnaship technically with two guys innovatively and passionately going at it. From the very first Raw when the match was announced? when Benoit one upped Angle in a technical exchange that had me marking out of my mind this was what this was all about. From all their backstage segments and interviews and talks to their actions in the ring it was what this was all about. And they wrestled the matches like this which is why the clear examples of trading germans and submission spots for example are absolutely freaking brilliant psychology. A clear demonstration on what Benoit and Angle were fighting hmm I should say wrestling about. When you look at Mania, it was exactly the match they were supposed to have at the time. It said a lot about who they were, where they were at and sets the groundwork for the future. Unforgiven is about total one-upmanship and nothing else. The whole match is wrestled that way and is absolutely freaking genius in doing so. Almost a perfect match and would've been if it weren't for a slip there with the Peterson Roll before Angle got Benoit into the Angle Lock. If they were going for what I think they were going for. The ending itself is beyond epicness and fits unbelievably well with what they were doing. An all time fav ending and super strong psychology. Rumble was about epicness combined with one-upmanship which was what they were building to beforehand. That's the match they had to wrestle, that's the match they did wrestle and kudos to them for it. Excellent psychology. The ending with the AngleLock03 was also seemingly meant for an epic rematch which would've had Benoit winning and overcoming the AngleLock 03 but alas that never happened. Smart wrestling. They did have an excellent match on Smackdown shortly afterwards. 3)The beginning of the Rumble match was pretty good although not as legendary as say Unforgiven's starting. The positives of it is that it keeps your interest, is compelling and allows the 2nd half of the match to feel more special for the big lengthy climax. The sharpshooter stuff was strong overall with it being worked with every time Benoit trying a new way to lock it on. It also puts some danger into the match but at the same time not too, too much as the sharpshooter as aluded to before only had a certain level of strength here. It also allows the stronger level of submissions later on to stand out more. What works with the sharpshooter also works with the flying headbutt. Benoit has to work hard to nail his always over flying headbutt finisher so by the time he hits it the third time the fans are literally drooling for it. This is something that always works in pro wrestling but what makes it even grander here is how on the 3rd time Benoit through his body language makes sure to draw every single bit of emotion, tension and emotion out of the audience. Cole picked up on this and was great announcing at this moment. Couple this with one of his best looking long distance headbutts ever after a smart one-upmanship spot that ends with the flip over german and it puts goosebumps on the audiences arms. People see that actual real life effort and it draws them in allowing them to get lost in the moment even more. Strong psychology and not random psychology. 4)There is counter learning from match to match to match which is shown in the Rumble here. Also, there is in ring learning countering as well which I remember being done in a heated, emotional moment of the match. At the end there I belive where Benoit goes for a crossface reversal that he had used earlier but Angle holds on. There is also long counter learning submission wrestling in the Smackdown match after the Rumble. 5)Going back, I remember the double clothesline spot being great for a wakeup call for the audience to get more into the match which is what they needed at the time 6) The match escalates well which I mentioned before with the flow. They never go overboard but toll the line exactly like they should which is impressive considering that they do a lot and are wrestling an epic one-upmanship match storyline wise. Smart. 7)I just love the smart, innovative countering they do which fits so well into their personalities and stores at the time. Afterwards, all escapes from going to your back from an angle lock attempt to a lot of other moves would be used again by others but at the time they were brand new. I enjoy the match a lot and believe it's smart and not random wrestling. It works on the majority of fans from my perspective. It's not perfect but it is tremendous. I think Unforgiven is almost perfect but you can't compare the two totally fairly because the objectives of the matches were different. This is what I personally get from Benoit vs Angle. I can't wait for RE to start contributing to the Memphis thread.

Got to go with the Guerreros. If Gory hadn't invented the Camel Clutch, how would the Iron Sheik make people humble?

You have to remember that the WWWF was a territory built around dynastic babyface champions who defended against a revolving door of monster heels. Escape rule cage matches were a way for someone like Stan Hansen to decisively lose the blowoff to Bruno or Backlund without being pinned. The concept has pretty much outlived its usefulness, but it made sense in the context of the time in which it originated.

Yes. Specifically, it's a Dixieland match, which is a cage match of sorts. To win, you have to escape the cage, go up the entrance ramp, and climb a ladder to retrieve the belt that is hanging above the top of the ramp. I'm not making any of this up.

The spot where Rudge pounds away on his opponent while trapping his arm in a hammerlock should have been copied by hundreds of wrestlers.

Benoit's Sharpshooter spots were terrible. Using a previously protected submission finisher as a glorified resthold less than ten minutes into a match is indefensible on pretty much every level. See also the endless Sharpshooter reversal sequence in the Smackdown Austin match that was at least as self-indulgent as anything Benoit did with Angle.

I agree with this. Angle was at his best in 2000-01. Working with Benoit turned him into what he is today.

AJ has to have had a few tag matches better than anything Kofi's produced, right?

For all that Bryan apparently learned from Regal, he also seems to have picked up some of Regal's bad habits like spotty selling. He went from acting like his arm was about to fall off to skinning the cat and applying the Yes Lock with no apparent difficulty.

I recently saw Samoa Joe vs. Low Ki, and I'm amazed that it hasn't been mentioned yet. In fact, it pretty much epitomizes what I had in mind when I created this thread.