Paul Jacobi

Bischoff had a nice run in 98, but WWE had higher profits in multiple years. Breakdown is here: http://www.gerweck.net/information/wwe-business-history/ Most insane is the 84 million in wrestling profit in FY 00-01 (excluding the XFL losses). Just an absolutely incredible run from 98-01

Related question: have the heels ever dominated a WWE PPV so thoroughly before? Backlash 2000. The heel won in every championship match. I'm pretty sure Rock beat Triple H in the biggest championship match on that one

the lyrics are somebody's gonna get they ass kicked, not whipped.

We're seriously counting Lawler drawing a few 2-3k (3 being generous) crowds as a feather in his cap? That's ridiculous. Most WWE crowds draw double to triple that. US only, Cena, and perhaps Punk and maybe Henry have a case.

I'm not sure Swagger, who's had a title run, has ever been pushed to be as important as Beefcake was when he was pushed to be his most important. It's not even something to question, Swagger was probably the underpushed champion they've had in the last decade, a complete and total afterthought though the booking of Christian this year post title win gives it a run too.

I'm guessing you mean peak as a worker for Snow right? That's probably true. For his overall career though, it's hard to say his 'peak' was his main event run in ECW with head a few years later and his role as Foley's buddy after that. Yes, his peak as a worker. Not that his run as Foley's second is anything to point to as a peak of anything. This is where we'll have to disagree. Being a second for a legit main eventer, during perhaps the hottest period for the most successful company in history, as well as being a semi credible midcarder is more than a lot of people get. They even got a brief tag title run when those belts at least meant a little.

I'm guessing you mean peak as a worker for Snow right? That's probably true. For his overall career though, it's hard to say his 'peak' was his main event run in ECW with head a few years later and his role as Foley's buddy after that.

You, and a lot of people, need to stop looking at the world through narrow, Pro Wrestling Goggles. CBS pushed Auburn in 2010. Why? The story developed over the course of the year that they were good and had Cam. 2009 Auburn Appearances on CBS November 27 - (2) Alabama at Auburn, 2:30 (ALA 26, AUB 21) That would be the Iron Bowl, which CBS has carried nearly every year since 2000. Other than that... Auburn was a mediocre team that didn't play much of a role in SEC Storylines. 2010 Auburn Appearances on CBS October 16 - (12) Arkansas at (7) Auburn, 3:30 (AUB 65, ARK 43) October 23 - (6) LSU at (5) Auburn, 3:30 (AUB 24, LSU 17) November 13 - Georgia at (2) Auburn, 3:30 (AUB 49, UGA 31) November 26 - (2) Auburn at (9) Alabama, 2:30 (AUB 28, ALA 27) I'm leaving out the SEC Title Game, which CBS had no choice on carrying it: they simply do. Auburn was a storyline. They ended up making a run to the Title. They got covered. This isn't "pro wrestling booking". It's TV Sports. Go back and look at how many national Sunday Night and Monday Night TV games the Vikings got once Farve showed up, and then how they were flexed onto NBC down the stretch in that first year. Same with the Jets with Farve got there that first year. How much more do the Saints get onto TV since Peyton/Brees got there and turned them into a contender? Dave sees this through Pro Wrestling Goggles because first and foremost in his life, he's been an obsessive wrestling fan. It's consumed his life for the majority of his childhood, and the overwhelming majority of his adult life. He'll claim that he followed other sports, but to those of us who are insane hardcore fans of a wide variety of sports, Dave really is a piker on sports. A lot of us also see some things through Pro Wrestling Goggles because we've become obsessive wrestling fans during our life. But a lot of us have sports perspectives that predate become wrestling fans, and have spent most of our obsessive wrestling fandom also remaining obsessive sports fans. We've seen decades of how Sports Leagues, Sports Teams, Sports Players and Sports TV promote their product. Every time we see something like Shaq vs Kobe being promoted after Shaq left the Lakers, we don't instantly view it from the view point of: "Holy shit... the NBA is promoting this exactly like Bruno vs Larry, with Shaq as the legendary babyface and Kobe being the punky young protege going heel. Stern's even better than this than Vince!!!!" Or look at Farve vs Rogers as some pro wrestling angle. Sports Reality: the Miami Heat got a bigger TV push when Riley & Zo were good there, then fell off when the team slid, then got a monster push when Shaq went there, then fell off when the team slid, and then got the main event push again last year when Lebron went there. It's not pro wrestling. It's the way TV Sports has been covering this shit for decades. Pete Rozell was doing this shit before Bill Watts took over Mid South, and if you look at the ratings... he was doing this shit better than Watts. I got Tebow push today. Like Vick was before him. Like Manning was before him. Like Farve was before him. Like Aikman was before him. Like Marino was before him. Like Montana was before him. Like Fouts was before him. Like Bert Jones was before him. Like Staubach was before him. Like Tarkenton was before him. Like Namath was before him. I'd go back further, but I started watching the NFL in 1971 when I was 5, so it's hard for me to put out more personal memories than that. The thing is: Dave, and you, would think that Tebow getting put on my TV over some other bland team today would be because it's Pro Wrestling Style Promoting. To which I'd say: That's hitting the bong. It's what the NFL always has done. What Dana is doing isn't Pro Wrestling. It's what sports do, and what the rest of the entertainment world does. Pay attention to the Grammys show this year and who gets to perform on it. Then go back and look at the performers over the past 20 years. Current hot stars always get put on it, mixed in with some Legends who might draw their fans. Guys like Christopher Cross have had a hard time getting on the Grammys since he took that big, flukey haul of 5 Grammys one year. Pro wrestling? Or just the music and entertainment business? For the life of me, I don't know why I have to explain this to anyone. It's fucking obvious to anyone who doesn't have blinders on. John John, In the NFL, NBA, MLB etc, a team *has* to win out in order to win their championship. In the end, the Cards won the Series because they had to beat everyone. Mavs, Bruins, etc In this case, guys aren't even getting the opportunity. UFC has been doing shit like this for years to guys like John Fitch and Carlos Condit, in not even giving them the chance. That's far different, and if you can't see that, then you're the one with the blinders on.

You can criticize Dave all you want John, but this is an example of UFC not exactly acting like a true 'sport' in terms of their booking. Diaz was a total flake for months, got demoted, another less exciting fighter got slotted in, and low and behold, UFC abruptly drops him in favor of the more charismatic (and frankly crazy) one.

I'm referencing WWF as kjh had mentioned not running the Garden or Spectrum monthly as a reason for the WWF peak in '98-01 not possibly being bigger than '77-84. Though for all of wrestling, the WWF made more in those years than any territory probably made in their entire history, so there's an argument to be made financially that it was a far better time business wise, but it's difficult to compare the revenue streams and the change in culture.

By '98-'01 they were a national promotion. Not saying it was a hotter period overall for wrestling, but there is a reason why they ran one specific arena less. Well, my point was every major arena was run less. Philadelphia was run seven times by the big two in '98, whereas the old WWF ran the Spectrum 10 times a year. In the whole state of Tennessee in '98 the WWF ran two shows and WCW eleven. Less people were attending wrestling events because less shows were being held. In a lot of markets less people were watching on TV too. To suggest the peak WWF wasn't higher in '98-01 is absolutely nuts. I'm going to use rough estimates. 77-84, they're lucky to draw 100k fans to the house shows a month (combining Bos, NYC, PHI at say 10-15k per big arena per month plus alll spot shows etc You have a few hundred thousand watching regional tv in your loop (Bos, DC, PHI, NYC, and a few other markets) In '98-01, you have the PPV to replace that with anywhere from 250-800 (or more) depending on which PPV was what month, plus all the house show numbers wihch are on fire *across the country* plus 5-6 million wathcing your tv each week. It's not even a comparison. The increase in exposure, attendance and paying customers in the boom is staggering. If you want to argue is the wrestling business healthier in '83 rather than '99, that's another debate, and not a totally fair one when considering the notion that the business was going to constrict based on cable and national expansion (which Dave has spoken about numerous times).

Was it really 'hotter' than say '98-01? It may be comparing apples to oranges, but the insane amount of people watching 2 companies during that boom and the WWF shattering thier own attendance records across the country is something we'll probably never see again.

Rockers vs. Powers of Pain from 1/15/90 at MSG is a nice big/small tag formula match. Also, 1990 is pretty much the end of the Midnight Express, so their matches vs. the RnR Express at WrestleWat, Pillman and Zenk at Capitol Combat as well as the Southern Boys Bash match are nice representatives. Flair's year should be interesting to track as well as you get the early stuff with the turn on Sting---Luger---loss to Sting----phase down----side feud with Doom----Black Scorpion.

Even from the audio, Dave mentioned he didn't vote for Doc, but I think admitted he 'saw his case' and that if all the Japanese people thought he belonged, he accepts that.

Are you simply making this up? Please provide actual numbers instead of going on hearsay. Angle vs Samoa Joe is the highest drawing PPV in TNA history. The # they did was 60k buys as reported in the observer several times. That's higher than any PPV number Sting has ever drawn in TNA. Undertaker/Austin drew the highest Summerslam in history in 1998. I guess Taker had nothing to do with that either. He also was in the highest rated Raw segment *ever* in 1999 ( 9.2 rating) and drew a good buy vs Austin again at Fully Loaded that year.

According to Graham's site, He had the belt for 15 days (9/23/01 -10/8/01). No matter what, that really isn't time to 'bomb'. It was a quick feel good switch and I suspect they never intended to take the belt off Austin. Any house shows headlined would probably have been purchased even before he had it and they were all Austin/Angle matches too and Rock is back at this point as the WCW (World) champ to boot. If you want to look at his Smackdown headline run from late '02 to Mania '03, that could be a different story, but the 2001 stuff is a myth.

Yep. Hennig MIGHT be the guy with the worst record as a main event draw to ever appear on the ballot. I'm trying to think offhand of who would be worse. HHH and Angle were both pretty spotty as draws. Angle bombed so badly so quickly in 2001 that they did the hotshot back to Austin. The part of Angle 'bombing' in 2001 is false. He had a 3 week reign that probably wasn't originally planned. It seemed to be a feel good moment after 9/11 to have "American Hero" Kurt Angle win the title a few weeks after the tragedy. The fact he dropped it back to Austin on Raw so quickly and prior to the next PPV backs this up. Do you have any kind of numbers backing up this view at all?

Are we just talking 90's singles? I think Rockers/Orient Express, Shawn & Diesel vs. Kid/Razor, and Shawn/Austinvs Owen/Bulldog are all pretty great tag matches. I think the Davey Boy match from One Night Only is pretty close and the Owen match from December '97 on Raw is about as good of a 10 minute match that you could have. Michaels/Jannetty from RAW in July '93 also knocks on the door.

He's not being slept on. It's just that other workers are more highly regarded. Here's my breakdown of 1994-97: 1994-Bret. For me, the ladder match is something that doesn't hold up at all. We've had nearly two decades of people falling off of ladders in dangerous and inventive ways, so it's kind of hard to get worked up over what they did at Wrestlemania. I don't really care for the Summerslam cage match either (I hate escape rule cage match), so Bret/Owen at Wrestlemania is the tiebreaker. That and the Waltman match on Raw are enough to put Bret over the top. 1995-Bret. HBK/Jarrett is the WWF MOTY, but my thoughts on the Summerslam ladder match echo my thoughts on the Wrestlemania one. Bret, meanwhile, had the really good IYH match with Davey, and I think the Diesel match at Survivor Series is at least on par with GFBE. I slightly prefer the former, but I wouldn't fault someone for preferring the latter. He also had good matches with the likes of Jean-Pierre Lafitte and Hakushi while slumming in the midcard. 1996-Shawn. Granted, this is partially due to Bret not working most of the year. But Shawn doesn't just win by default, as he was consistently at least very good. The Diesel match at GBFE and the Mankind match at Mind Games are both classics. He even got a decent match out of Sid. It should be noted, though, that Bret brought it when he was there. I've already given my thoughts on the Hart/Austin Survivor Series match. 1997-Bret. The Wrestlemania submission match is the WWF MOTY by a mile, and the largely forgotten rematch at Revenge of the Taker was also good. Bret/Taker at One Night Only was great, and I also think that their Summerslam match is really underrated. And don't forget Canadian Stampede. As for Shawn, the highlight of his year was the HIAC match, and I don't think it really holds up either. For one, Shawn's overselling is completely ridiculous. It's not quite Summerslam-versus-Hogan level, but it's close. Second, the whole point of the cell was to keep Shawn from running away from Undertaker. So what does Shawn do? He escapes the cell! I'm not saying that should never happen in any HIAC ever, but doing it in the very first one killed the gimmick right out the gate. In sum, I only see one year where Shawn has a clear edge over Bret, and that isn't enough to offset Bret's edge over the bulk of the decade. I guess I just disagree. I feel the ladder matches hold up extremely well because they weren't worked in the fashion that a lot of the modern ones were. There isn't a ton of setting the ladder up and waiting, it's introduction into each match feels natural and the 2nd one plays off the first a lot. They bumps are still pretty crazy, but the work is much, much smarter than we'd see later on. I also intensely disagree on Hell in a Cell not holding up. I watched that match again last week (I've been watching lots of WWF 97 of late) and it's pretty perfect. It's a great culmination of every interaction between UT and Michaels and I disagree on his overselling. UT utterly destroys him. Even the escape was well done and it backfires on Shawn as no matter he tries to do, UT keeps coming and coming. It's only the debut of Kane that ccan stop the monster. I also feel Bret as a character ran out of a lot of steam post Stampede that year (which you can see in Wrestling with Shadows), and I felt his match with Taker at SmmerSlam wasn't all that good.

Austin had some good-great main event brawls in '98 with Michaels, Foley and Undertaker. While I don't think he's #1, he did a great job adapting his style due to injury.

It’s amazing to me how much Michaels is being slept on in this thread. I have him at #1 for the US in the 90’s, with Hart 2 and probably Steve Austin (especially thanks to some great variety between the DA, Blonds, WCW singles, initial Stone Cold---Brawling Stone Cold). I have to get Will’s set to revisit ECW. The Rockers were the best WWF tag team in 90 and 91 with a great match vs the Orient Express at the ’91 Rumble as well as some other very, very good stuff sprinkled in those 2 years vs. Demolition (SNME), Hart Foundation (SNME), Powers of Pain (MSG), Haku & Barbarian (Mania) and I’m sure if I dug through the Rockers comp I have, I’d find more. Bret is the best WWF singles in 1992 and 1993, while I think Michaels equals him in ’94 and in my opinion passes him for good from 1995-1997. I like the Razor ladder match more than the Bret/Owen mania match or the cage match. I think the Diesel/Shawn vs Razor/Kid Action Zone match is one of the best WWF tags ever. I also really love the Shawn/Razor match from 8/94 on Raw. Really, aside from the Owen matches and the 123 Kid Raw match what are the other really great Bret matches in ’94? Bret’s ’95 has one awesome match, with Bulldog at the December PPV. I like it even more than the Summerslam one. The Rumble match with Nash is pretty good, but the Survivor Series one, cool ending aside, I always felt dragged. He also had some nice matches with Jean Pierre Lafitte and Hakushi. Shawn has the Jarrett match which is probably the WWF MOTY and the ladder rematch with Razor that’s close to the quality of the first. He’s got some real underappreciated stuff with Davey Boy this year with a really good RAW match from March and then another really good one from MSG that October (with their roles reversed). I also recently watched a Razor/Diesel vs. Shawn/Jarrett MSG match from March of 95 that was fun as hell. Shawn’s Mania match with Diesel is ok, but not near the level of the great match they had the next year. Bret has little in ’96. The January Undertaker match and Feb. Nash matches aren’t all that good. (particularly compared to the ones they had or would have) The Iron Man match is still pretty good I think, but wouldn’t crack a best of for him or Shawn. The Austin Survivor Series match is awesome and I think there’s a pretty good Vader/Bret Raw match in December or maybe that’s ’97. Unlike Jerome, I think Shawn’s ’96 kicks ass. I also think Loss underrated several of the, particularly the Nash one. He’s got a borderline great match with Owen in February, a really good sprint with the 123 Kid in march, the Iron man match, then the best match of Nash’s life in April. Loss had it in the 90’s and I think it’s probably Shawn’s 2nd best match of the year behind the Foley one. Nash was booked like a killer and Shawn had a great babyface performance overcoming all of the odds and punishment and taking out the giant. His Bulldog series had one subpar match and one very good one (KotR). The 6 Man at IYH is pretty great, the Vader match is ok, and the Foley match is my WWF MOTY (slightly over Austin/Hart). There’s also a really good tv match with Triple H that was worked well as a Champion vs mid carder match in which he gave the challenger a lot and then won cleanly. In ’97 I also feel he also has an edge over Bret. Bret was in one of the best WWF matches ever against Austin, but I like the initial HiaC as much or more. Other than that, Bret’s got the 4 way with Austin, Vader and Undertaker ,a pretty good match with Austin at the April show, a really, really good Taker match from England and the screwjob match. Shawn’s got a great Raw tag w/ Austin vs Owen and DBS, a very good match with Austin at KotR, a great brawl with Taker at Ground Zero, a really, really good match with DBS in England, the aforementioned HiaC, the screwjob match, a great sprint with Owen on RAW in December, another great sprint with Foley in late August, and a really good tag with Triple H vs UT & Mankind. I feel Shawn’s biggest matches (Foley, Hell in a Cell, Jarrett, the 2 Ladders, Nash IYH, Action Zone tag) are on par with (and for me a little better, but that’s more personal taste.) than Bret’s (Owen & Austin, the 2 DBS) and that he smokes him as a regular TV match performer. The mark in Bret’s favor is 1 significantly better year (1992) and one year where he’s better, but Shawn is gaining (1993). If that’s the factor one wants to use to rank him ahead, I disagree, but can understand it, but to suggest there’s a clear chasm between them seems off to me.

Widely regarded by whom? Dave, Alvarez and others would probably say Shawn Michaels (with Hart up there with him). Some would say Steve Austin, but unless you're just talking perhaps this board and a few others cohabited by several individuals who also post here, I don't think Bret is any runaway consensus. I call bullshit on this. It is possible that because of post-comeback stuff Michaels is regarded as the better of the two by Dave, Bryan and even a more recent wave of fans. What I do know is that at the time Bret got in he was regarded as an especially great talent and was considered a leg above Shawn. In the late 90's/early 00's when the debate came up online Bret was the overwhelming consensus pick over Shawn in both of these categories. Believe it or not about ten years ago I was in the distinct minority of rating Shawn over Bret - I remember one poll I did in 00 where I was the ONLY person of forty voters that had Shawn over Bret (from memory Benoit had number one votes - the poll was for best U.S. worker of the 90's). As a recently as the Smarkchoice Best of the WWE/WWF poll the consensus was that Bret was better than Shawn and that was a poll that attracted a very broad cross section of voters. I certainly believe that the WWE has created a narrative whereby Shawn is SUPPOSED to be the THE GREATEST SUPERSTAR IN THE HISTORY OF THE WWE UNIVERSE! But I see little evidence that this is a prevalent opinion in hardcore fan circles. Having said that if the narrative continues to be pushed by the promotion I think it could eventually take hold. For the record at this point I would probably rate Rey as the best in ring wrestler in WWE/F history. Not sure who I would rate as the best in ring wrestler of the 90's in the States. Reading the older Observers on Dave's site contradicts this. He's been beating the Michaels drum since the beginning and has called him the best in the company as early as 1992. I'm not saying it was agreed upon, but it's not like the idea of Shawn being the best in WWF was something that came out of nowhere. Bret went in 96, when he was already a longtime veteran, had a few main event runs and was and Shawn had really only broken through to the main event a year prior. I also think that a lot of the reporting on Shawn's bullshit in the 90's colored him in a bad way for a lot of fans, particularly with the screwjob placing Bret in such a sympathetic light. Being 1 of 40 in an internet poll is not representative of a 'wide consensus' unless you only consider the smarkschoice board or a place like DVDR as indicative as the 'hardcore' consensus. It's part of it, but to say a few hundred represent the consensus view of the hardcore base is disingenuous. I do agree with you on Mysterio though. He has a case for sure as best WWE worker of all time. I also agree that post comeback Michaels has put him above Hart. Unlike many people here, I totally agree with that since I'm a big fan of a lot of his matches from '02-'09.

Widely regarded by whom? Dave, Alvarez and others would probably say Shawn Michaels (with Hart up there with him). Some would say Steve Austin, but unless you're just talking perhaps this board and a few others cohabited by several individuals who also post here, I don't think Bret is any runaway consensus.

How did Bret 'open' anything for WWF in Europe? They successfully ran England, Ireland, Germany and other countries in 91 and 92 before he was an established main eventer. He was a top guy on several successful overseas shows (which judging from Cawthorn's site) which were pretty loaded, but then the same thing happened in '95 with Nash mainly on top. Rather than give anyone undue credit, it's probably more a case of WWF in general being over and the novelty of them coming overseas with most of the talent that was the real draw.

As far as the MSG series goes (from Cawthon's site): 3/16 86 4/22 86 (no DQ) 5/19 86 (Sammartino ref), which leads to... 6/14 86 Savage/Adonis vs Santana/Bruno 7/12 86 rematch in cage I haven't seen all of these matches, but of the ones I have they are IIRC pretty good and really heated. They also wrestled at Boston Garden on 1/11 86, 2/8 86 (the title change I'm sure you've seen before), and 3/8 86. Of these, I've only seen the title change. In Philly, there was this unique match on 12/7 85: Santana/Tony Atlas vs Savage/Ventura. They wrestled in singles on 3/7 86, 5/10 86, and 5/31 (no DQ). I've never seen any of these matches and don't know what is out there on tape. As for other matches between the two, I don't know of any others off the top of my head, but there is probably some MLG stuff out there. The MSG 4/22/86 is the best I've seen and it's an awesome match. JDW did a great write up of several of the Tito/Savage matches in his WWF 80s reviews a few years back. This Spectrum 5/31 No DQ match is ok, but not close to the Garden one. I'd watch (for a complete feud version) 1/86-Boston 2/86- Boston Title Change 3/86- MSG rematch 4/86- MSG No DQ 5/86-MSG w/ Bruno as special ref 6/86-Bruno & Tito/ Savage Adonis 7/86-Bruno & Tito vs Savage/Adonis Cage. (blowoff) It was a well booked run where Tito gets a measure of revenge with his team winning the cage match, but Randy keeps the title before transitioning into the Dragon feud. -Paul Jacobi-