WingedEagle

I love Savage for his charisma, his promos and making things feel big. But he's not someone with many matches I look back on as either classics or ones I want to rewatch. The former will probably ensure he makes my list, while the latter will put a pretty firm ceiling on his placement.

Thanks for providing a little background and context regarding the the SC poll and Taue. I might not have participated in PWO and its predecessors / peers as long as some others, but the idea that Taue is a beneficiary of any recently discovered footage or rethinking doesn't jibe with anything I've seen anywhere. The guy has has been a fringe HOF candidate. Perhaps folks didn't think his work was stellar enough to merit inclusion there, but that's a far cry from not ruining some classics.

I love when someone here takes a view counter to the traditional wisdom about a wrestler and then says things like "Doubtful at this point the light is going to come on for you" like I'm the one out in left field. The onus is on you to explain why everyone has been wrong for two decades, not vice versa. I like Taue. I think it's commendable that he was able to take part in some classic wrestling matches without ruining them. It's also clear that All Japan's fans, hierarchy and contemporary American fans didn't see him on the same level as the promotion's top stars. There's such a desperation in some circles to be the one to "discover" someone that people are able to talk themselves into things that are self-evidently not true. I can't imagine you'd have such strong thoughts on Taue if you haven't watched a lot of his matches. If you have watched a lot of his matches, its doubtful you're going to markedly change your mind on him. Is that such an outlandish suggestion? Wisdom is not conventional because it is yours. Where has the opinion that Taue was a middle of the pack worker for AJPW during that era become commonplace? I'm not aware of it being the case here, in the WON or the few other places online I may visit. And who is discovering anyone here? This is Akira Taue. No one's unearthing anything that people haven't watched for years. Just let me know the grain I'm going against and where all this indifference towards Taue became so prominent and the established CW and I'll be happy to to tell you, subjectively, why I think its bs. On the other hand, I'd like to hear why you find him such a bore, how the fact he wasn't athletic dragged things down or why he was lazy. Have you spoken to him? His motivations would certainly be news to me, but perhaps you can explain why most people I'm aware of who've watched that era of AJPW enjoyed his work.

I'm with concrete in that I know Benoit belongs, and can probably easily say he's better than some on my list and not quite as good as others, but its hardly worth the energy to place him. There are better things to think about.

Embry would definitely be near the top of the list of my favorite wrestlers who don't make my GOAT 100. Long live the sleaze.

It sounds like Taue simply didn't click at all for you, which is really a shame. I think Fuchi is one of the more underrated wrestlers from that period, but couldn't begin to sell myself on him at Taue's level. I also think Taue's awkwardness and lack of athleticism, and how he worked around them, are part of what makes him so unique and compelling. But you're reading apathy and boredom into what the rest of us see as a dickish heel who can't believe someone like Kobashi would make him expend energy just to hold onto his tag titles. Doubtful at this point the light is going to come on for you with respect to him.

Which 10 were better and could've taken his place during that era?

While we're at it, same goes for Suzuki/Tanahashi from 10/12, which also didn't have juice going for it.

Or it could be case of Mays, Mantle, Snider and Ashburn. It may depend on how much one views them in relative terms to each other or in relative terms to everyone else. How about as the Isaiah to Magic or Bird, or Barkley to Jordan? He's not The Guy. But that guy isn't The Guy without him.

I'd probably put Taue at number four as well, but wouldn't tune out an argument to plcae him higher. But what are 1990s AJPW without him? I don't see Fuchi or someone else stepping up and filling even 50% of that role for purposes of the tag feud, and you're also wiping out the Kawada matches before they paired off and in the Carnival afterwards, the Misawa classics in '95 and the Kobashi title win in '96, and that's just scratching the surface. Akiyama certainly wasn't ready for that role yet; so I just don't see how removing Taue out doesn't markedly impact the others, as you can't stretch out and build all the TC matches without those tags providing layers along the way. For HOF purposes if people want to argue against his record as a draw and weight that significantly over his work you can certainly make that case, but you can't do that without poking a few large holes in a number of previous inductees.

I've seen and forgotten most of Rey's WWE work from the '00s so will need to refresh myself on the big matches there. He may also suffer a little in my eyes from simply having so many good matches that blend together as opposed to someone like Lyger where I wasn't watching him every week but everything I did see stood out. They obviously wrestled very different opponents and styles over the last 15 years, but curious how people rate him and Lyger.

EDIT: If it wasn't already clear, I was talking about Samurai here and somehow had a brain freeze and put this in the Dragon thread. Ultimo will probably get a seat in lodge or mezzanine to view my list.

an example that always springs to mind is a Money in the Bank match he was in 2ish years ago. they do an 'everyone climb the ladders' spot, except for henry. henry comes in, stands between the ladders, and pushes them over. now these ladders are easy to push over, smaller guys than henry have pushed over these ladders with minimal effort multiple times in the match. but henry stands between them, tries to push over both over at once, makes a strained face, screams, and slowly builds the momentum/energy to start tipping the ladders. it was a spot made memorable entirely by henry's treatment of it in doing something unique and interesting in how he went about doing it. and most of henry's matches have a couple moments like this. that impresses me more than working a standard 'epic' style match more or less the same way those matches have been worked before, without doing anything individually interesting or unique in them. smart fans put too much weight on epic, main event style matches in terms of valuing wrestlings and less weight on 'regular' matches, even if a wrestler manages to make them consistently entertaining(something many of the more highly regarded wrestlers on the basis of their epic-style matches arent able to do, jericho comes to mind) and always make sure to do something individually interesting and creative, even if it's low key, instead of phoning it in. Great point here about Henry doing certain little things differently from the norm and adding a wrinkle with his execution and charisma to make the routine stand out. Somewhat similar to what I appreciate about Taue, who was obviously an all timer but had some very unique aspects to his game that distinguished his game and character. A couple other workers in the past I've noted were similarly unique and I'll have to go back and dig those names up when not watching football since they're not on the top of my head. That being said, it doesn't get Henry anywhere near the top of this kind of list, but will be interesting to see if it finds a place for him towards the bottom.

There's room on a ballot for someone who had a hand in classics as different as the Liger series in '92 and Kanemoto in '97, not even mentioning the rest of his work in tags and singles with a wide range of opponents. Enough depth and diversity that he should rank higher than most juniors.

He's been excellent the last couple of years. I think I need to see a whole lot of stellar performances before the current NJ run for him to make the list, but he's someone I'm more than willing to seek out gems to try and squeeze him in.

I absolutely agree with this sentiment even if I don't quite agree with the 50% number. But I've never understood the Piper love, especially on the character side. I want to watch more of him in connection with reviewing Portland, but can't imagine him sniffing a top 300.

Misawa has the conch heading into this thing, with Kawada, Hansen, Kobashi, Jumbo and Tenryu the immediate challengers. Curious to see how high Flair, Austin, Michaels and Taue place.

Curious to check out some of the examples you point to here before injury / illness compromised him. They're not flaws I found in him at all but want to see what I'm missing or if it just doesn't matter to me.

This is my conundrum. He was vital to the 6 man classics from that era, but I'm not sure how you build a case for him individually on the back of those matches. Also one of the best examples of a junior heavyweight who rose above that stigma without actually graduating from that class.

Bret vs. Cena. Now that's a comp that will give me a reason to look back at Hart.

The biggest standout feud is Jarrett/Lawler vs the Moondogs right? I think Moondog Spot is pretty much unquestionably a better candidate than Jarrett. Concur. Enjoyed many non-Jarrett Moondog matches more than non-Moondog Jarrett matches.

Gut reaction says top 20 feels right with top 10 a distinct possibility. Someone I watched a ton of on the ROH/Indy level and just about everything in his WWE run. When I sit down and look at just the depth of his record and extent of classics on top, it would not surprise me if he finished a lot higher than expectations. How many guys that worked as frequently had as few matches that were worse than good?

I enjoyed Butcher vs. Joe. I've yet to see other Butcher that even left me comfortable, so hoping there's some more "normal" in his repertoire to check out.

That's probably 4/14/83. I agree those are top notch, but check out the title matches vs. Baba from that era as well. Totally different and so much better than I would've expected going in. Baba wasn't exactly power or speed personified at that point, but Hansen made him look like a world beater. Some of my favorites from early 80s AJ.

I watched the 80s Memphis set and didn't come away from that thinking of Lawler as an all timer. Not sure there's a whole lot else out there that would change my thinking here but happy to have my attention turned somewhere new.