thebrainfollower

Well a lot of us became teenagers then. Couple that with a guy none of us had any loyalty to or really liked (Lex) and a lot of my friends gave up. My best friend simply HATED Yokozuna, when Yoko became a tip top guy he stopped watching and never resumed. He'll watch old school stuff with me and collects footage too but nothing after that moment. I wouldn't say it was a question of new guys taking over so much as new guys we had no loyalty to taking over. Had things transitioned right away to Bret and Shawn rather than Lex and Yoko I think the damage would have been less. They were at least "our guys" and not newcomers. There was in my opinion a way to maintain SOME loyalty with most of your audience. Vince just made the wrong moves in 1993 and by the time he fixed it, most had moved on. Likewise my original point, the HHH run following the massively botched Invasion killed the Attitude era's momentum. It didn't HAVE to happen that way, but it did. I'm not saying it's all Vince's fault both times his company ended a boom period, but in both cases you can point to things he did that made it much worse and things he didn't do that didn't help. Usually consisting of pushing what HE wanted vs what the audience wanted.

35 years old. My dad watched during the Bob Backlund era and he tells me I watched with him but don't remember it. I watched Hogan's rock and wrestling and definitely remember a Championship Wrestling episode in 86 giving WM 2 results. Was watching WWF regularly from then on, and also renting Coliseum Video's starting in 1987 when we bought a VCR. Without cable it was just Superstars, Challenge and the occasional Spotlight from the Worcester based TV station. Talked wrestling with my friends. Favorites were Tito, Ricky and the Bulldogs, then loved Savage. And no, was not a "smart kid" as I also liked the Undertaker and the Bushwhackers later on. Bought tons of the Hasbros and stayed interested in the product during the dark ages. We got cable in the summer of 93 allowing me to get PPV (one week of newspaper deliveries) and watch Raw. Watched WCW a bit and gained interest in it when Heenan defected as by then he was my favorite wrestling performer. Still is. Stayed around during the entire MNW and began to watch older stuff in the early youtube days, branching out to JCP and the territories. Gave up on WWE in 2002 during the endless HHH reign of terror though I watched off and on when I had cable until 2005. Still watched older stuff and played the wrestling card game a lot, video games as well. Have watched a lot more stuff since finding PWO two years ago (through the Observer write ups initially)

Yes Jerry decline. Revenue from online sales overall is increasingly hugely this year from last at ever retailer. All that tell you if you ignore the propaganda is that WWE is following national trends.

I wonder if it's loyalty. I suspect it's more using Dunn to be the heat magnet to mess with people for Vince's amusement. It's well known Dunn is messing with each NXT prospect (Paige is basically done at this point career wise at 21 ish). But Vince could stop it in a second and doesn't. Either he's just out of touch or it's a subtle reminder to HHH who's really in charge.

I wasn't comparing Vince to Hitler except in how he uses various minions against each other and ends up doing more damage to a company that he ultimately does have control over and doesn't need to do this stuff anyway, but just does to give himself a few laughs.

But Vince could fire Dunn today or at least no longer let him run anything so it's his call ultimately. Dunn is his Martin Bormann.

Also population and costs have gone up. It's like in 2004 when Karl Rove claimed George W Bush was the most popular President in US history, over Washington, Lincoln and FDR because in 2004 Bush got more votes than any candidate ever had. Which happens every year because the population goes up.

By that I mean a real corporation where the McMahons ultimately control everything.

WWE will not turn into a corporation. It will be Stephanie and Hunter replacing Vince. Some things will change for the good (newer guys pushed, Dunn gone and NXT talent not getting buried when they move up to the main roster) and some things for the bad (Stephanie thinks even less of pro wrestling than Vince does, and HHH is far less forgiving of people who dare to challenge the almighty HHH than Vince is. Also I have a funny feeling Rock and Austin will no longer be welcome so HHH can be the big star of the Attitude era.).

The difference with your first 2 analogies is that Disney and Nintendo had different people in creative to shake things up. WWE will always be Vince and Stephanie and (assuming he never has a divorce) HHH running and micromanaging creative. That's a problem that won't let them adapt the way Disney and Nintendo were able to.

So Vince is basically trying to just stay above water in a tough media environment that he hasn't been able to figure out how to master the way he did in 84 and 98 Parv? If so then he is no longer a genius. A genius businessman would adapt and triumph ala the people who run Disney (smaller scale for Vince of course). Vince hasn't done that. You yourself are the biggest supporter of the Vince is a genius theory (which I agree he definitely was). So that's our argument, which you admit to agreeing with. Vince McMahon is a man in decline who can't keep up and is no longer the success he once was.

No it's really not. Promotions in history pushed new talent and tried to make new stars from time to time. When Crockett tanked in 84 he brought in a new booker and a huge crop of fresh talent and rebuilt his promotion. When WCW was failing in early 94 financially Bischoff turned it into the Hogan nostalgia show and when that wore off, reinvented the promotion again with new talent and the NWO. Vince himself reinvented his talent roster 3 times as far as I can see, 84, New Generation and Attitude era. There's just a huge list of talent Vince dropped the ball on all for this one guy and his doofus son in law and his friends. That's the issue. Not everyone can be the main eventer. That's true. But there are a lot of guys who MIGHT have been the next big thing and MIGHT have taken WWE out of a 12 year slump if Vince had still been what he was years earlier.

One can be biased and still be either factually correct or incorrect. The best thing WWE has put out in a decade? But have you seen anything else in the last decade?

You are right. If it wasn't Cesaro, it would be the roughly 25 other guys Vince dropped the ball on in the last decade in order to keep Cena on top and his Attitude era stars as bigger than the modern product. Vince 1985 sure as heck didn't suggest that Roddy Piper do a job to Pedro Morales at WM,

I said CARED Parv not listened. As I said until about 1991 what Vince Mcmahon wanted and what his fan base wanted were in touch so he was willing to go along with their ideas (turn Jake, Savage etc) as you say because he didn't go against them as much. In the Attitude era Vince's sleazy side took over as he turned WWF into the Jerry Springer wrestling show. Again he was in touch with what the fanbase wanted to a great extent. But for the last 12 years he's been out of sync with society in general for the most part. And Linda's defeats in the Senate election sealed that disconnect for good IMO. So yes Vince used to be MUCH better at listening to his audience. I'm not convinced he did that because he wanted to, I truly believe he did that because he had to (not wanting the huge expansion to end early and then needing to come back from WCW beating him.) I think deep down Vince is a misanthrope whose has contempt for every wrestling fan from JDW to the 5 year old kid buying a Cena shirt. I do believe Vince was a genius, but I also believe he's a pretty horrible human being. With Daniel Bryan, that happened because the fans, bless them, were going to hijack the ENTIRE product for good until Vince caved and gave them what they wanted. And the moment he won the title he was put with the greatest momentum killer of the last 10 years, Kane. His push when he comes back, we'll see. It was a great example of how the "great men" theory of history is total BS and how it's the people who make history.

Vince is so out of touch he doesn't realize he's created the very fear that makes them what they are.

Because Vince has NEVER cared what the fans want except when WCW was kicking his ass and he had no choice. In the 80's what Vince wanted and what most of the fanbase wanted just happened to be the same thing so everything was cool then. Vince was the ultimate product of Reagan's America. That's why Loss and it's a sad fact isn't it? No other business seems to have such obvious contempt for its own fans as pro wrestling does.

When things were successful they ran 2-4 house shows a night also. Raw still does around 10K a week that's pretty good. Compare that to the number of places including WWF doing 8-10K 3-5 nights a week 30 years ago and it's a blowaway. And not Buddy Rose's diet either.

And Parv I recall a thread here on PWO which proved that 1983 was actually one of the most successful years for all the territories still around (No Detroit or either CA promotion) in history.

30 years ago as an umbrella for around 30 years ago. I was not specifying December 1984. Crockett Georgia Mid South WCCW Memphis AWA Just off the top of my head were all doing great. If anyone with more knowledge than I would like to add some more, have fun.

I don't blame you for not watching Parv. I myself keep coming back in and out and when I watch it's out of habit. Yes online smart fans bitch a lot. I can only imagine how the internet would have reacted to the Mega Powers explosion given their feelings towards Savage and Hogan in 89. Do I think WWE would be better off pushing the smart darling of the year each year? I'm not sure about that. I don't think that's the point. It's that Vince will NEVER allow anyone that sort of chance again for fear they would leave him. It will be John Cena, who has been neither a huge mainstream success nor a spectacular failure ala Diesel until the day Cena retires or Vince dies. I've long come to deal with that fact. There are a number of fans who do see Vince's refusal to listen to them as proof of his decline but there are a number of thoughtful ones who see it as something more profound than that.

So selling out 12 shows a year vs what they were doing in the 80's and Attitude era and what tons of promotions were doing 30 years ago is a sign of success? Talk about empty talking points. The idea that wrestling only succeeded because there was nothing else to do. Okay for TV I buy that, there just wasn't as much to watch 30 years ago sure. But the idea that people had no other entertainment options is silly. And IF Vince was the god businessman some claim he would have found a way to have WWE keep up. So far all his attempts to fit into 2014 have FAILED. And that's why's he's in decline. By your own argument, you just proved the very point you seem to oppose.

Vince's FATHER put those guys on top Parv. Vince Jr's top stars, with one notable exception (and even he was never pushed as THE guy, he was always 1a to Austin and then even really to HHH in how he was booked) have always been white men. Whether Vince is personally racist and sexist I cannot say. His product sure as heck is though and always has been.

Having one hugely successful show a year (and that 80,000 in Wembley was 22 years ago) doesn't qualify you to be a success. Is Vince still the most successful promoter today? Sure. He successfully devalued pro wrestling so much that nobody wants to touch it. As I said earlier, pro wrestling is at the lowest point of interest in North American it has been in over 100 years. You can argue as some do that is BECAUSE of the way Vince McMahon changed what it is. I remain unsure of that but increasingly leaning towards agreement. But what you cannot argue is that it IS at its lowest point. And we can't call Parv out for some of this. He himself is out of touch with modern product fans, talent and the product itself by his own admission. If he had watched week in and week out for years, his view of Vince McMahon would be much dimmer. It's the same as someone adoring Woody Allen who's seen all his movies up to and including Manhattan and nothing else.

No one is saying that Vince McMahon is in decline because he's not booking Punk and Bryan as his top guys Jerry. But he's been in charge of WWE for 32 years. During that time he had eighteen months to get started followed by a six year boom, a 6 year decline, a 4 year boom. He was up and down but his ups were like nothing the business has ever seen. He was definitely in his peak. But for the last 13 years the WWE product has fallen. The only notice it gets outside of its own bubble is when yet another wrestler dies. It's not treated by the mainstream media as a joke, it's treated as irrelevant. Raw ratings are half what they were at their peak, and have been that way for years with no signs of upward mobility. House show revenues are in freefall and have been for years. And the Network, the next big thing for WWE has not been the roaring success it was expected to be. The numbers are half of what WWE promised and they also took a huge hit on expecting much higher revenue with the USA deal renewal. Right now fewer people are interested in WWE, and North American pro wrestling, than at any time in history. By any measure you want to use, ratings, house show gates, network numbers, PPV buy rates and merchandising things have been in decline for nearly HALF of Vince McMahon's run on top. About the only success has been the Mattel action figures and right now Mattel has enough power to dictate to Vince on broad things, and he's just lucky they don't really care that much. THAT is the argument anyone is making and as you yourself say, THAT is why VInce McMahon is a sad old man in decline. And getting exactly what he truly deserves, a slide into total irrelevance by the mainstream media he deep down wishes adored and followed him.