thebrainfollower

I don't think the time was right to end Shawn's run. SS 96 would have been a HUGE downer with all the heels going over right and left (Did Owen REALLY need that win over Savio? Goldust over Mero there still baffles me). Ending that with Vader winning the title would have been one heck of a downer. I would have had Shawn win on a banana peel and get his head handed to him afterwards and put Vader over at Survivor Series.

I'd like to think Loss refers to the contract Vince broke and that's his point. The day of Montreal Vince has a point but his actions in that past year are so deplorable that at that point Bret owed him nothing. It's Bret and it's not even close. Signing someone to a contract you have NO intention to pay and bail out on to prevent them from taking a job elsewhere is disgusting behavior. And I don't even believe it was for business reasons purely, it was Vince's insane man crush on Shawn Michaels refusing to know bounds or see common sense. Vince spent a year doing everything possible to ruin Bret Hart's value without being so obvious he ended up alienating his entire locker room and having his head handed to him. I truly believe he was supporting everything HHH and Shawn did to Bret, because he resented a talent being smart enough to negotiate a great deal for what he felt he was worth rather than the "dumb rasling jocks you control with an insane schedule that all but forces them to do drugs" style he had always employed in dealing with most of his talent.

Back to the podcast, I thought Will was the perfect guest for this. A friend of mine recently sat me down and asked what the worst PPV of all time is considered to be. We watched both KOTR 95 and this. And neither is really THAT bad in retrospect. If any show makes me question Meltzer having zero objectivity as a reviewer it's this one. That Morton-Gibson match is great, makes sense and feels like how the R and R wrestling each other would. Will was a great addition to the team, I found myself a little sad hearing his "will I be back next time" being answered with a no. I feel like you guys did an excellent job at rehabilitating this show and making me like it more (For the record I don't think it's good but it's rather like someone accusing Millard Filmore of being the worst President of all time and you learn they were Zachary Taylor's biggest fan)

If there's a better wrestler for taking the excitement out of matches partly by making them too long than 02-05 HHH I'd love to hear about him.

It is indeed an awful argument Parv. Bret didn't ask for more money he asked for what he was owed, the contract he negotiated and signed. Vince told him, "sorry I'm breaching your contract and not paying you" and Bret did something wrong in that how? Flair refused to drop the strap for Luger in 88 at Starrcade and again at 90 so please don't tell me Herd wasn't justified in being concerned that Flair would absolutely refuse to job to him again here. He was completely correct in that concern. Bret by contrast laid down for Shawn willingly in 96 and he hated him nearly as bad then. I'm not suggesting Bret was justified in refusing to drop the strap at SS 97 but IMO he WAS more justified than Flair taking the belt and leaving with it for another company. A security deposit does NOT make an item "yours" in this country, that's one reason that the courts demanded he stop showing the WCW belt on WWF TV, among others. Flair is justified because he's the GOAT? Even if I agreed with that, that's total nonsense. It's borderline fascist in its ideology, saying because someone is the best they are above the law.

I wouldn't have fired Flair but I'm not sure I would have kept him around either. He wasn't drawing anymore and his face run in 89 produced poor box office as well. I think Flair become an albatross in that nobody would get over as the new top guy as long as Flair was around with THAT crowd, but THAT crowd was dwindling and was no longer enough to make a company solvent. Here's another question, given what Flair did here is there ANY justification to his condemnation of Bret Hart at the screwjob other than blind dislike? You know the guy who DIDN'T show up at his competitor with their world title.

That was an odd match to say the least. I am not sure WHO the face was but Steph took easily 95% of that match in offense then pinned Trish with interference. The night after and week after that were two of the most disgusting things WWF had done to that point. That marked the end of my real passion for it, seeing that even with Russo gone, the misogyny he and Heyman brought to wrestling were here to stay.

Huh? When did that happen? That wasn't a feud just an SNME match and a few house shows. Summerslam 91 Savage is definitely a face.

This wins greatest post in PWO history IMO

Because Vince.

So what is it? If he's pinballing and calling it in the ring he's being "disrespectful" (to guys by that point who really had no right to clean his boots let alone work with him), if he changes up and works a more dominant style he's "burying" the opponent. Okay let me take this one Parv and explain it. No wrestler has "no right to clean his boots". Every wrestler who steps between the ropes is putting their health and their lives on the line and deserves respect for that. Period. End of discussion. If I were a promoter I would fire any prima donna with that approach and that's exactly what I HAVE done in 16 years of directing theater. Every actor I've ever worked with knows to leave their ego at the door and work as a part of a team. And every match is a team effort of both guys. That's why I'd drop some moron like 1996 Shawn Michaels in a heartbeat because no matter how good they are guys who are "only about them" do more harm than good. As great as Hogan was for wrestling, I'm not sure he hasn't done more harm than good in the end. Anyway back to the main point. Flair gives depending on who the guy is. He has no problem giving someone like Hawk or Lex Luger tons of offense because they are zero threat to him. Hawk is a tag guy and Luger is green and hated by the boys, who will sabotage every effort to give Luger the run Sting had, and that I truly believe (and I think you agree with me Parv) he would have been more successful at than Sting. It's why Flair politicked to keep Luger from the title but Sting...no problem? Flair for six years in 91 played a heel so wimpy that jobbers gave him a fight. That was his character, the wimpy braggart who got his ass kicked for 80% of the match and escaped on a fluke again and again and again. What worked in the pre-cable territories darn near killed southern wrestling in the late 80's. but if there's any match where Flair SHOULD have done that it's against Scott Steiner. It's very hard to separate today's Scott Steiner from then. In 1991 he was the MAN. He was the new upcoming guy everyone liked that seemed to have it all and was going to be the next big thing. So Flair goes out there and does everything POSSIBLE to prevent Steiner from getting over. It was awful and inexcusable looking at it THEN and why did he do it? Cause he was genuinely scared of being replaced. Now I don't think Steiner had any chance of achieving that or being the GOAT but Flair did then and did what he did.

Because Flair is calling the spots Parv. "now give me a backdrop. Good now a press slam. Now another backdrop". He's calling the shots he takes. I just don't think Flair respects anyone really unless it's in his political interests to do so. It's not a knock on the guy? It is if the guy can produce better work with other people. Cause I think Taker-Warrior was better in 91 then Flair-Taker in 92. It was something genuinely different whereas Flair-Taker is no different, as you say, from Flair-Hawk and anyone trying to say Hawk and Taker are about the same character is out of their minds. Obviously Flair is a much better worker than Warrior but I'd argue his inability to let others help construct the story is proof of Flair's rampant ego and a self justifying argument "See this guy ain't good enough, I had to to carry him". Yeah but how do you know that if you never give the guy a chance and insist on it being done your way? The ultimate example of that being his abomination with Scott Steiner. I blame that mostly on Flair. Scotty should have had enough balls to say F this and start throwing bombs and if need be rough Flair up enough to force him to stop burying Scott. To his credit as a human being, he didn't do that. For his career he should have. And I don't think Steiner's a nice guy, he's a sicko bully but the one time it would have been understandable he caved out of inexperience and fear.

And yeah I'd put the Freebirds ahead of the Shield but a lot of that is how the business changed. Hotshotting breakups faster and a lack of different places to go are two reasons why.

To take these one at time Parv Megabucks and Virgil - not really a team. Yeah Dibiase and Virgil teamed up a bit but Virgi's a stooge and was treated as barely a wrestler. It's the Mega Bucks and some moron who's their gofer. MX and Cornette - Okay Cornette wrestled occasionally but as a manager and a joke. I think he wants wrestler trios. Original NWO - hotter than the Freebirds by far. Didn't jumpstart a territory they jumpstarted the entire wrestling business. My only question is this - how many matches are there with them and ONLY them on one side? I would assume next to none (hogan didn't wrestle at BATB and by the time they started wrestling on TV the NWO was much bigger. The Russians - Great upper midcard act that could main event as Nikita did. Put them a step below the Shield and Freebirds. Too Cool - Great choice. As you say arguably the hottest mid card act in wrestling history. Demolition - Shadows of their former selves when Crush came in. They did main event against Warrior and LOD but it didn't exactly light the world on fire. I'd argue that push was more about sabotaging what was left of Warrior then them being over. The Brood - Not really that over at all. Top of the bottom half of their era at best. E and C are a totally different beast than the Brood. The Rat Pack - Place them a shade above the Russians and a shade below the Shield.

Parv I think the frustration I have with Flair is somewhat related to this, but not quite the same point. Yes his matches are usually different. But they're really one of about 5 matches that he walks his opponent through, move for move, without allowing them much contribution at all. He loves certain spots and darn it you will see them if they make no sense. For instance every Undertaker match in 92 has a press slam spot. I've seen literally every televised UT match from the 90's and Flair is the only opponent he uses that with. Why do it then, it makes no sense? Well because Flair likes it and thinks it's a cool spot and we're doing it darn it. If an actor on stage ever came to me and said "you know there's certain things you need to do that I like, they don't really make sense but I like them so we're doing them he'd be told to f off in no uncertain words. And Flair DOES give you the same match Parv, with totally different opponents. There's no story to most of Flair's stuff it's just Ric has stuff to do because insane alcoholic Flair is so hung over that all he can remember is a stock match. For PPV matches he tended to handle things differently. I would say Flair has a couple of power man matches, aerial matches, tech matches, brawlers etc, maybe 2 of each. That's not a knock on Flair but the almost non-existent contribution of his opponents is. It's disrespectful and it's irrational. You learn by TRYING, DOING and SOMETIMES FAILING not just repeating like a robot whatever so called GOAT Flairs tells you to do.

Actually Raw caught up a few weeks back with ECW. Still nadda.

Southern Wrestling is up. That ends that. I still don't get how they just gave up on all the early content, old school, WCCW and now it seems ECW as well. But they seem to be rushing to the MNW which makes me think Nitros will start being added in a month or so.

I feel like this is either Jerry losing his mind or Round 4353425 in my favorite online war.

I don't know if I'd consider either guy underrated or overrated but the Diesel-Bam Bam Bigelow match from April of 95 on Raw is a really good match, definitely much much better than expected. Nash was as motivated as I've ever seen and energetic as heck, one of his best efforts of all time. The WWF tag team division is rated highly not so much for the matches (there were many many good ones and a few great ones) but because tag teams were taken seriously and treated as important by the WWF then, pretty much for the first time ever and except for a brief comeback in the Attitude era and then Smackdown, pretty much the only time in WWF history. And they usually were placed on the cards after a few boring as heck squash matches which helped a lot. They also had a lot of good SNME matches. It's not that they were head and shoulders above the rest of the company as some have nostalgically rendered, it's that they were right there with everything except the main events.

Is Attitude era WWF really that loved in terms of matches? I dunno. I watched the Austin saves Stephanie episode and while the matches were terrible and short there was a strong feeling of fun and energy and must see TV throughout. I'd say the era is rated as lousy wrestling, sometimes great, sometimes lousy TV. I just watched an episode of Continental (my first, Missy Hyatt's debut I think) that had so little wrestling in it Vince Russo called and said "dudes you need more wrestling". Having said that everyone cut a heck of a promo.

Shawn Michaels is Vince McMahon's favorite wrestler ever. Vince is the most powerful guy in the industry. They're either sucking up, or. like most wrestlers, simply incapable of looking at things from an audience perspective. If I had been Nash I would have picked him up and whispered "I can give you 20 of these things if you want, but you're taking one right" with a lot of swear words thrown in.

I'd agree. Sting seems to be PWO's whipping boy at times. Watching WM 11 this morning, is there any wrestler ever more selfish and unprofessional IN RING than Shawn Michaels from 94 to the injury? Kevin Nash is his best friend and I lost count at the number of times Shawn threw a tantrum or went out of his way to make Nash look bad, including the worst powerbomb I've seen in a while.

Bushwhackers definitely. Was Duggan winding down? I thought he started as a pro in 1980 so when he joined the WWF his career was barely entering the peak era for most guys.

Luger in 99 was great. I just watched every Raw and PPV from 94 over the last few months and that might be his worst year overall. I think its highlight was giving me a huge high ten when I watched him main event a house show against Crush, I was 15 and interest was fading. I mocked Luger like hell at the time, but the second he came out was so caught up in his undeniable charisma I turned into a Luger fan. And he seemed genuinely happy to see someone screaming like a nut for him.

Overrated for me is Vader. He's great, but he's not as great as so many people make him out to me. Almost every WCW match I've seen has some minor awkward botch (The Bossman match in 94 has a bunch) that no one seems to comment on and gives him a free pass. Granted that may be the expert WCW camera crew at work. Underrated overall would be Lex Luger but not really on PWO Jerry. Here I'd be hard pressed to come up with someone who's not getting his due, so I'll throw Eddie Gilbert out there just because we never talk about him it seems.