thebrainfollower

The interesting thing was that if Vince is capable of any self analysis and truly believes he's going against mainstream entertainment he's a total failure. If WWE is competing with movie studios, networks and mainstream TV they've been getting their heads handed to them for 13 years straight. Which on some level really does explain his anger management issues, horrible treatment of talent and employees, micro-management, contempt for any interviewer who isn't either his employee or one of a handful of former employees he respects, and desire to write only for himself and his 5th grade loves. However successful he may have been in wrestling, Vince doesn't want to be involved or see himself as involved with pro wrestling. He's in entertainment. Running the company with the least mainstream appeal or success of any of his competitors. If he truly sees himself as against Disney, then he's about as powerful and successful as the IWCCW guys were against him in 1988, I get a kick out of Jerry thinking that Vince saying he's not out of touch means something. Of course Vince's minions tell him what the internet says about him in general, heck even Cena called him out of touch to his face according to the Observer a year or two back.

It was at a comic book store and I asked him about his push in WCW (this was April of 98) and we both theorized that Bischoff and company didn't really trust him. I mentioned to him about Owen and asked if Vince still trusted Owen. He said sort of and I mentioned concern that something might happen bad to Owen. I had a career burial in mind obviously, but I could tell it made an impact on Bret.

Of the wrestlers I've met Paul Bearer and Trish Stratus were the two nicest to everyone. Given how much fun being gawked at by guys all day long must be, that says something for her. I also accidentally made Bret Hart more paranoid in 98 and caused Ric Flair to cry in 2004. I talked to him about how his book reminded me that it was important to believe how good you were, and that, as a struggling young teacher, learning the greatest of all time had a hard time believing how great he was really helped me overcome my own lack of self confidence. With tears in his eyes Ric got up and hugged me, thanking me as a person. King Kong Bundy is pretty awesome. At a signing he was putting people in holds and when my friend asked to put him in a headlock he thought about it and said "okay but not too hard dude". Then at a later one he swiped my wallet as part of an elaborate prank.

On Where the Big Boys Play, I would estimate half the guests mention getting out of wrestling during the HHH reign of terror era. I don't think anyone's done more damage to US pro wrestling in the last 15 years except maybe Vince Russo. HHH wouldn't make a top 500 list of US workers for me. I can't think of a single HHH match I've ever watched that I've liked because of his performance.

Hogan vs. the Heenan family. I actually fell off the Ottoman at age 7 when Andre came out with Heenan. Loved Savage-Roberts a few years after that. Austin-Bret is a favorite as well. Of the WCW I caught Savage-Flair in 96 but that ended up going nowhere really. Those are the ones I watched live which I am convinced is necessary for it to be on my all time favorites list.

Listening to the Heenan vs. Hart debate I feel Will and Johnny sort of won on points despite the fact that I think factually they are just dead wrong. I sat through about 200 plus hours of 1980-1984 Memphis TV recently and watched Jimmy intently. And the one thing he can't do is be a genuine threat or menacing. He's an annoying pain you want to punch in the face and a brilliant strategist but he just isn't as multi-faceted as Bobby Heenan. Watch Bobby's post WM VI promo when Andre turns on him. In a flash he turns into one legit scary MF who you believe isn't above having someone gun Andre down in an alley just to make sure nobody leaves the family or else. Bobby spent 12 years (except for a year in Georgia) being THE heel manager in the AWA before even coming to WWF. Granted the footage isn't as much as Jimmy but from everything I've seen, and I've seen a LOT of Heenan (hence the name) he was an even better heel than in the WWF. I feel like Will and Johnny basically ignored all of Heenan's near 20 years prior to the WWF while making most of their case for Jimmy based on HIS pre WWF run. That's just a poor and unfair debate at best. Jimmy Hart was a great manager and an amazing foil. He led an entire small promotion's heel side for about 5 years, then became a good #2 manager in the biggest wrestling promotion in the world. His WCW run...eh. Bobby Heenan did the exact same thing Hart did in the WWA, we just don't have the footage to see all of it. I've collected every scrap of footage and info from that era I could though and that was peak Heenan. He then went to the AWA and became the top manager for one of the greatest heels ever and possibly the best wrestler-manager combo of all time. He then moved to the WWF and HE was chosen to be the top manager, not Jimmy Hart. For a very good reason. Hart coming out with Andre, bleh. Hart being the third member of the Flair-Hennig group, not a chance in hell. Hart as Gorilla's partner for all those years on Prime Time heeling it up no way and Hart was a TERRIBLE commentator. For a very good reason. For Bobby Heenan remains, not just the greatest heel in wrestling history, which he undoubtedly is, but the greatest entertainer in the history of pro wrestling. And just remember if you leave the Family, you're never heard from again. Humanoids.

Well there's tons of people who want me to turn off the TV. Does that count? Lana and Rusev are about the only new heels now I really enjoy. Mark Henry was a great bully/monster heel, the closest WWE came to doing Vader right and Paul Heyman is still a great heel.

Agree about McMichael. He's not a GOOD commentator per se but he genuinely seems to love WCW and put it over as must see TV viewing every Monday night.

Who we choose to play and are best at often speaks volumes of something inside us. We're not talking though about his on camera persona Johnny we're talking about the way WWE has rewritten history to appear that HHH was the big savior of the Attitude era when he was safely behind Austin, Vince, Rock, Foley, The Outlaws, Undertaker and even Sable in importance to that era winning the MNW. Now we ARE assuming that it's HHH behind this revisionist history. It's entirely possible I suppose that it's Vince in an effort to make his successor appear the most importance person in wrestling history behind himself. But I think given everything we've seen from HHH in the last 20 years and read about him, it's close to a slam dunk in evidence that it's HHH behind this version of history.

Also Parv, just take Kurt off your list and it becomes a more appropriate top heels 1975-2000.

1. Bobby Heenan 2. Vince McMahon 3. Jim Cornette 4. Roddy Piper 5. Ric Flair 6. Hollywood Hogan 7. Nick Bockwinkel 8. Jimmy Hart 9. Lou Albano 10. Ted Dibiase Would HHH be an honorable mention? He was such a good heel he got me and millions of others to just stop watching modern WWE.. He's therefore the worst heel ever, but he's darn good at it. The fact that Trish Stratus in 2004 was miles ahead of him in heel talent, though a positive for her, is proof just how damaging this goof was.

Really? Given that his business practices contributed to his vicious death I'd place him towards the absolute bottom.

UT not going for the tombstone is a result of Steve Austin never taking another piledriver in his career after Owen. Yes this is a pretty bad match. It was the last match I saw before going off to college and UT basically destroys Austin the whole match, low blow, stunner, it's over. It's the Attitude era Hogan-Andre (with the ladder match being Savage-Steamboat) basically though not with that large a match quality contrast.

For entertainment related stuff. If you want to take my analogy to the real world, then Johnny's analogy makes segregation okay.

Johnny I don't mean to criticize but what you're saying here and the attitude taken in your podcasts is very different. You frequently DO sound like there's something wrong with Parv because he doesn't like what was over then. Or something wrong with a person who doesn't like HHH......or doesn't like Jay Strongbow. Persons who are intolerant towards intolerance are just as intolerant as those they condemn. Reminds of me the hypocrisy of so many friends I've known who are committed Democrats who assume I'm a Republican because I don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't personally engage in pre-martial sex and don't drink often. "well if you don't do what we do, you're wrong" is a universal human concept. It's also a true shame.

That would have been interesting definitely.

I guess someone who was high up enough (at least mid card) strikes me as essential for a year filled with politics like 96 but I guess that's unfair, someone low on the totem pole might have a different perspective and actually have more knowledge.

Just a question - who would you guys want to get for the remaining WWF KC timelines? For 1982 I'm not sure who you get. There doesn't seem to be anyone other than Bob Backund around for the whole year. Tony Atlas seems to be around for the first half of the year only and I'm not sure Bob would do a timeline. Any ideas? For 1990 you have a problem where virtually all of the major players are either Hogan or dead. For guys who have never done a timeline Dusty would be a great choice but seems unlikely. I'll go with either Ted Dibiase or Tito Santana. For 1991 Sgt. Slaughter seems a no brainer. For 1996 - My first thought was Vader but given how lousy his WCW one was, no thanks. Sunny maybe? You're not gonna get Austin, HHH, Michaels, Foley or anyone on that level. Ahmed Johnson, but he took the last four months of the year off. If Dustin wasn't in WWE today, I'd say Goldust.

I watched this match with Skip just minutes ago and it is truly amazing how over Jannetty is. He got absolutely nothing out of it, but it's an amazing start to a forgettable run.

I don't think he wanted it to fail Johnny but I also don't think he understood what he needed to do to make it succeed, nor would it have ever been possible to get him to accept that, namely bring in the top WCW guys and treat them as genuine threats for an extended time.

If this list was GOAT Top 100 performers in wrestling history Bobby's an easy top 5 but as a worker too much of a gimmick for a list of just wrestlers.

Flair's great matches do take a nosedive in 87 but to me that's more because he's now working one territory against a much less interesting variety of opponents. To what extent did that affect his decline if any? It's (to use this movie comparison everyone hates) an actor decides or is forced to work with just one or two directors in one genre with a handful of the same co-stars. I work for the same theater company mostly but always try and do other stuff and bring in new people because even though I feel like I'm on an acting high/directing high in the last two years, I need new people to freshen me up. But Flair didn't have that kind of control over his career at that point which is not really his fault. Had no idea how much 3rd title run Flair was out there that I had not seen. Got my work cut out for me. How much does Flair's career going a decade after his prime relate to his financial choices? Was he staying because he wanted to or had to?

Savage is in my top 5 of all time if not the US GOAT. Sure his final "year" (which was really only about 3 months) was pretty bad but Ric Flair didn't exactly have a great last TEN years in his career. Savage's high impact style just could not be done with his body at that age and once he figured that out, he retired with a ton of money, married his school sweetheart and left his legacy intact rather than having a whole thread about the humiliating things he does. To heck with it Randy Savage is my GOAT US.

Well they finally started updating 94 Raw's again. You can relive the first night of the Monday Night Wars if you are so inclined.

That one wasn't a clause. Austin challenged Kane earlier on Raw and Kane accepted with a nod.