thebrainfollower

As a kid I used to love speculating what might have happened if this concept had been tried before this match each year. We debated that in school for weeks. 89 - Hogan, Warrior, Dusty & Beefcake vs. Savage, Earthquake, Perfect & Bravo - not a bad match 88 - Hogan, Savage & warrior vs. Perfect, Dino and POP (that might have cemented the idea these guys are heels now) 87 - Savage, Jake, Steamboat, Bees and The Young Stallions vs. Andre........okay that one might not have worked so well. If I were forced to book this I would have Andre murder Jim Powers just cause, then casually walk off. Though I think Jesse and Gorilla could have gotten over the idea that 7 on 1 (or nine if you wanna throw in the Jumping Bomb Angels) is too much for even a giant and Andre would have to be nuts to try it.

That reminds me of my greatest shame as a wrestling fan - the first WCW PPV I actually bought was %&%$&$&$ Uncensored 96! Yeah I admit it, I actually thought the main event was so strange it would be worth watching.

Okay huge card. But I would expect the combination of entering a major media market for the first time that was a necessity to survival and a freaking world title change on top to be a huge card. Not exactly the average night for the NWA.

Tomk I think you're right but I would say at this point both guys were treading water and it's the closest thing Beefcake has to a feud till Honky and Valentine has until Graham/Muraco. Heck I saw these two at an indy show about six years ago and they cut promos blaming each other for the Dream Team's breakup so maybe this feud is STILL going.

I call it the poor guy gives up when the possibility is thrown out that WCW"s new top heel might be Carmen Electra. Anyone who survives after that earns my respect.

Okay so the argument is which company had the cards that let's say in 88-92 had more meaningful matches and feuds on them. Yeah JCP did. Clearly. I wouldn't say it's a massacre but they have the lead probably 2-3 more meaningful matches per night per show. BUT they ran a heck of a lot less shows per night. So this is a completely unfair argument. Take ALL the WWF cards in a given day and All the JCP cards in a given day and I bet the WWF has a slight lead more often than not in total number of meaningful matches. Best way to compare is PPV"s where each card showcases the entire roster (Or should but Dusty was strange enough to book house shows the same day as PPV's). Wanna do that and see what happens?

I probably should take the hint that this is for Jerry only and no one's allowed to agree with him (or is ignored if they do) (Partly, I don't think WWF cards were loaded with stories but neither do I think the average card in this era (88-92) had 2 or 3 matches that had a story on average which was what I thought others were saying. But to pick a random card I selected earlier. WWF @ Miami, FL - Arena - May 3, 1991 (5,000) Bret Hart pinned the Barbarian Col. Mustafa pinned Koko B. Ware The Big Bossman pinned the Mountie Ted Dibiase pinned Virgil Ricky Steamboat pinned Haku WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect battled Davey Boy Smith to a draw The Legion of Doom defeated WWF Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys via count-out The Ultimate Warrior defeated the Undertaker via disqualification 75% of these matches had definite TV stories behind them So there you go. Picked completely at random since I certainly don't have all the WWF results from 88-92 memorized. I am hearing different people saying different people are saying different things though. Exactly what percentage of matches in the average WWF house show between 88-92 meant something, for a title/had tv stories and feuds behind them. I would place the number at between 50-65 percent. I don't recall Jerry claiming 75% but if am wrong I apologize.

The Halloween Havoc 90 stuff was great for a laugh soup, thanks for the mention of that. Waiting for Wrestlewar 89 with baited breath.

I think I just listed a card where five, originally six feuds were all played out (and that card had an extra Hogan match, vs. Slaughter, that wasn't announced). But since you asked here's a few with more than 2 feuds on them. WWF @ Bristol, TN - Viking Hall - January 1, 1989 Scott Casey defeated Conquistador #2 Jim Powers defeated the Brooklyn Brawler Sam Houston defeated Danny Davis The Red Rooster defeated the Blue Blazer Brutus Beefcake defeated Ron Bass Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard defeated Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty Jim Duggan defeated Dino Bravo in a flag match Andre the Giant defeated Jake Roberts via disqualification Definitely a C show here and yet 3 featured feuds on TV (I think Rockers-Busters had had a pull apart brawl on Superstars by this point, but I would call more that a great match than a feud) WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - January 14, 1989 (matinee) (6,018) Televised on the PRISM Network - featured Dick Graham on commentary: Tim Horner pinned Jose Estrada at 9:36 after modifying a sleeper into a sunset flip The Bushwhackers defeated Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhuvov at 9:47 when Butch pinned Zhukov with the double gutbuster Akeem pinned the Blue Blazer with the splash at 8:03 Hercules defeated Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) via disqualification at 8:02 when Virgil interfered and attacked Herc with his chain as he had the backbreaker applied on Dibiase; after the bout, Hercules cleared both men from the ring Jim Duggan pinned Dino Bravo (w/ Frenchy Martin) at 5:55 in a flag match after Martin accidentally hit Bravo with the Quebec flag; after the match, the American National Anthem played as the US flag was raised above the ring The Powers of Pain (w/ Mr. Fuji) fought WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition to a double disqualification at 6:45 when Fuji attacked Smash with his cane, with Ax grabbing it away and attacking the challengers with it, breaking it in half Greg Valentine pinned Ron Garvin at 12:10 when the momentum of a crossbody off the top by Garvin put Valentine on top for the win Paul Roma pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 3:48 with a missile dropkick WWF World Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) pinned Bad News Brown at 5:36 after reversing a bodyslam attempt into an inside cradle Again 4 feuds featured on TV regularly and no Hogan to be found WWF @ Glens Falls, NY - Civic Center - January 6, 1990 Tugboat defeated Barry Horowitz Mr. Perfect defeated Jimmy Snuka WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku defeated Demolition The Honkytonk Man defeated the Red Rooster Bret Hart defeated Bad News Brown Dusty Rhodes defeated the Big Bossman Randy Savage defeated Jim Duggan 3 feuds featured on TV all the time (And Duggan begins the WWF tradition of jobbing in his hometown. Other than Tugboat-Horowitz, no squashes to be found). I remember WWF magazine trying to hype Honky-Rooster as a feud but I'm not that generous) WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - January 13, 1990 (announced at 9,200) Earthquake defeated Paul Roma Koko B. Ware pinned Al Perez Bret Hart pinned Iron Mike Sharpe (sub. for Bad News Brown) Jimmy Snuka pinned the Honkytonk Man WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku defeated Demolition via count-out after Andre threw Smash out of the ring Randy Savage pinned Jim Duggan with his feet on the ropes; there were two referees for the bout WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Dino Bravo (w/ Earthquake) with the splash (was Honky-Snuka done at this point? If not then here's 4 feuds all over TV) WWF @ Albuquerque, NM - January 15, 1990 (4,807) Earthquake pinned Koko B. Ware Bad News Brown pinned the Red Rooster Tito Santana defeated Bob Bradley (sub. for Barry Windham) WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Dino Bravo Brutus Beefcake defeated Rick Martel via disqualification WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku defeated Demolition via disqualification Roddy Piper defeated Rick Rude in a lumberjack match WWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - April 29, 1991 (5,500; sell out) The Big Bossman pinned the Mountie Col. Mustafa defeated Johnny Ace via submission Rick Anderson defeated Randy Hunter Sgt. Slaughter defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification when Hogan hit Slaughter with a steel chair that Slaughter brought in the ring moments earlier Marty Jannetty pinned Kato IRS pinned Tugboat Ted Dibiase pinned Virgil The Legion of Doom defeated WWF Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys via count-out Hogan's here but so are 3 other all over TV programs WWF @ Miami, FL - Arena - May 3, 1991 (5,000) Bret Hart pinned the Barbarian Col. Mustafa pinned Koko B. Ware The Big Bossman pinned the Mountie Ted Dibiase pinned Virgil Ricky Steamboat pinned Haku WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect battled Davey Boy Smith to a draw The Legion of Doom defeated WWF Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys via count-out The Ultimate Warrior defeated the Undertaker via disqualification 5 major feuds on TV and no Hogan to be found WWF @ Oakland, CA - Coliseum - January 3, 1992 (8,000) Skinner defeated Chris Walker Chris Chavis defeated Kato The Warlord defeated Greg Valentine Ted Dibiase defeated Tito Santana via count-out The Undertaker defeated Jim Duggan Owen Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated the Beverly Brothers when Owen pinned Blake WWF IC Champion Bret Hart defeated the Mountie Randy Savage defeated Jake Roberts Only 2 other major issues here though NF vs BB's and Tito-Dibiase did have TV issues that caused them WWF @ Fairbanks, AK - January 11, 1992 Chris Chavis defeated Kato Owen Hart (sub. for Davey Boy Smith) defeated the Berzerker Owen Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated the Beverly Brothers The Undertaker defeated Sid Justice via disqualification Kerry Von Erich defeated Skinner IRS defeated the Big Bossman by using the ropes for leverage Randy Savage pinned Jake Roberts with the flying elbow drop 4 TV feuds here in a fairly small market WWF @ Anchorage, AK - Sullivan Arena - June 13, 1992 Tito Santana defeated Barry Horowitz Nailz pinned Virgil Rick Martel defeated Tatanka via count-out Davey Boy Smith defeated Repo Man Earthquake defeated WWF Tag Team Champion IRS The Undertaker defeated the Berzerker WWF World Champion Randy Savage defeated Ric Flair via disqualification 5 programs here (No idea why I picked two Anchorage cards in a row, these selections were all random) WWF @ Oakland, CA - Coliseum - June 13, 1992 (6,500) Crush defeated Skinner Kerry Von Erich defeated Kato The Mountie defeated Sgt. Slaughter via count-out The Legion of Doom defeated the Beverly Brothers The Nasty Boys defeated Owen Hart & Koko B. Ware WWF IC Champion Bret Hart defeated Shawn Michaels The Ultimate Warrior defeated Papa Shango via disqualification 4 more issues here. So nine feuds in two shows (which was all that was run after the summer of 90 anyway IIRC) As to this diversity being what caused the WWF to fail? You are just making a joke right. I would hardly consider Piper, Savage, Andre, Steamboat, Don Muraco, Bulldogs, Harts, Valentine, Santana, Jake etc the scrubs compared to Hogan's Michael Jordan you seem to think they are.

There's also the impact that TV had in shaping our memories of what an important feud was, and what wasn't. JCP tended to feature the entire (or virtually the entire) roster each week, either in matches or promos. Show me an episode of Superstars or Challenge that had the entire roster on it and I'll eat my hat. So seeing say Paul Jones vs. Jimmy Valiant brought up week in and week out, again and again and again for years, is bound to make it seem important. Whether or not it actually drew money I don't know. But Jerry is absolutely right that the WWF roster and how it was used was drastically changed between 86-88. House shows no longer had 2-3 matches that might have relevance to TV and a bunch of boring as heck meaningless matches between SD Jones, Steve Lombardi and the like. As far as the Jumping Bomb Angels meaning something............well they got tons of TV time, were the featured act in one of the Survivor Series matches and had a match at the Royal Rumble. I'd argue that for a VERY brief time, Vince was trying to present them as something new and exciting and worth seeing. That lasted maybe 3 months and that's pushing it. Whether or not anyone actually bought a ticket to see Japanese women's wrestling in the Northeast in 1988..........Yeah I really tend to doubt it sadly. The July 91 Superstars taping in Worcester MA I attended (not announced as such) had more than 2 hot things on it. You got to see. Hulk Hogan vs. the Undertaker - 1 on 1, first time ever, Hogan vs the hottest new heel in some time. I was a huge Undertaker mark as a kid (loved the old classic movie monsters) and was the ONLY kid in the Centrum screaming for Hogan to get his clock cleaned here. The Ultimate Warrior vs. Mr. Perfect - IC title - Warrior no showed but darn do I remember wanting to see this match as kid cause I assumed Perfect had no shot in hell and I'd be seeing a title change Jake Roberts, Big Bossman and LOD vs. Nasties, Earthquake and The Mountie - Okay well this is only one match but it's THREE hot programs all at once. Jake-Quake had me very interested, Bossman-Mountie had featured one of the more vicious beatings on WWF tv to kickstart the feud and the LOD were a HOT act in 91 in my area as many kids had their shirt or hats in the playground and loved emulating them. You could easily have broken this up into 3 matches. Of course Jake being Jake, he no showed also. Bret Hart vs. the Barbarian - When this was announced the idea was that Bobby was throwing the Barbarian at Bret to stop him getting to Mr. Perfect, just like he did with the Bossman. Between it being set up and the show Heenan retired as manager, so the point of this was sort of lost. Sid Justice vs. Typhoon - The debut of the hot new babyface of the year. I remember being psyched to see this mainly cause I knew Sid's finisher was the powerbomb and I remember my friends and I arguing in the playground over whether he could or could not do it to a 380 lb guy. The match didn't draw many in, but Sid's debut definitely hyped my interest a lot. Also we were told via the six weeks of event center promos (only local area but given they were 10 minutes of the show total I'd argue they were v important) that Bobby Heenan would have a big announcement for all of us at this show. And unlike most of these this one delivered in spades as he came out with the WCW title and announced Ric Flair was coming to the WWF. I actually lost friends over being called a liar about this in the school yard the next day.

I want to say Pettingil also did a random episode of Raw with Vince between Bobby leaving and Lawler's legal trouble being wrapped up. I remember it being mind numbingly bad.

This is a really tough one. 86-90 I'd give it to Luger hands down. 91 Sting by a hair. 92 well obviously Sting wins there easily. 93-95 I'd also give it to Sting as I think Luger was a terrible fit in WWF and really brought it down. 96 and 97 I'd have to give it to Luger and fake babyface Luger is one of my favorite outside the box thinking wrestling storylines and Sting didn't wrestle after September 96 except for one match the next year. After 97 neither guy was all that great but I'd give a slight edge to Sting and obviously he has much much better career longevity than Luger. I also think he was the face of a company longer than Luger and Crow Sting vs. Hogan drew better than anything Luger ever did. It's very very close but I'd go 51-49 for the man who does this and does that. BTW does anyone know, did Luger and Vader ever wrestle against in each other? Battlebowl 91 I think but I can't recall any interactions between them.

That's very possible JDW. I don't recall the words TV taping ever used on TV and they never feature in any event center promos I have. I remember "getting" how the tapings were done at that first taping, prior to that I just figured Superstars and Challenge were live shows.

Thinking of Bart Gunn's prime brings to mind the scene in Rocky where Mickey visits him asking to be his manager. But maybe that's because I've never seen his Japan stuff.

For all the Worcester MA TV tapings the card was listed as a competitive card via the event center with Jerry's hero Sean Mooney. They'd list 6-8 competitive matches. At no point was anyone told this was a TV or SNME taping (did both). I remember being psyched to find out I would see virtually the entire roster in one night once I got there and the squashes begun. In all the shows I remember with Hogan he went on last for those. One of those was a marathon session where they taped 4 weeks of Superstars, the Summerslam 91 USA pre show and 4-5 dark matches. Warrior no showed (though he was scheduled against Mr. Perfect, who was so badly injured at the time his squash consisted of a few punches and tossing the guy to the floor for the countout), Sid Justice debuted, we were told Ric Flair was on his way, and Hulk Hogan faced the Undertaker for the first ever time 1-1. Pretty special show. Started at 7:30pm and to this day I remember the clock on the microwave reading 2:30 when we got home (45 minute ride home but still that's insane). The main event was released on Hulkamania VI. Also the length was partially caused by the Beverlys botching the Shaker Heights spike on some jobber and it taking 20 minutes for him to be cleared out (and when wwe.com showed that episode I could still tell the move was messed up badly)

I can add this information. In all the WWF tv tapings I attended the main went on last. Believe me once you hit 12am (and I once went to a show that ran for nearly 6 hours) the only thing that would keep most of the crowd present was Hogan.

Jerry Lawler is a guy I definitely never appreciated as a fan, having been first introduced to him via the WWF at age 13 in 1993. I'm trying to re-educate myself about him via this board's suggestions and what I can find online. Here's my start (done more or less at random) Jerry Lawler & Bill Dundee vs. Wayne Ferris & Phil Latham 6-15-79 We start joined way in progress with a bloodied Dundee just getting clobbered by Latham. I assume this is in the Tupelo sports arena, and Lord does the ring look small and the picture quality poor but that's no fault of the match. Lawler attacks to keep the fans hopeful. There's a nice little touch where Dundee tries to fight back but he is so completely bloodied and exhausted that his fists have NOTHING to them and Latham doesn't sell them very much at all. Double clothesline gets 2 but then Dundee gets fired up and makes his own comeback, hammering both blond bombers until Lawler comes in to help out. Dundee hits a something (sort of a cross between a cross bodyblock and flying headlock takedown to pin Ferris but the ref is distracted by Lawler hammering Latham outside the ring as I say to heck with PBP and just give general impressions. Finish to the match is Latham elbowing Dundee off a Ferris sunset flip for the bombers to steal the pin and at this point I'm wondering why I'm watching this. But THEN the post match brawl begins. Interesting bit where the blonds keep clobbering Lawler but a fired up Dundee ain't selling nothing for nobody. Finally the faces clear the ring and Lance wishes us a goodnight but then the footage restarts (hard to see here). The brawl is a crazy bloody mess but the picture quality makes it hard to tell what's being used (I swear at one point Lawler ducks an empy popcorn tub being thrown at him) The faces beat the heels down and leave with the belt. SO the heels take their frustrations out on Jerry Jarrett (I've got to assume wrestlers attacking promoters was unknown here) and then the faces return I can see why this was influential but it wasn't actually all that great and Dundee definitely had a lot more to do than Lawler here. Not the most promising start.

I'm just not a huge fan of 60 minute matches. I've never encountered one where I haven't gone off and done something else for a bit while it's playing and while I have a few friends who'll watch any wrestling with me, if I suggest anything over 30 minutes they protest. But for in ring bell to bell action this is probably the greatest match we'll ever see (in terms of storyline, emotional involvement and other extraneous stuff I would rather watch the Savage-Warrior WM match if all the post match stuff is concerned. That's the closest Vince ever actually came to doing what he wants to do, transcend wrestling into entertainment that matches any movie or TV show for emotional kick). Listening to all these rules of George Scott, it's shocking he lasted as long as WWF booker as he did (84-86 right?). The story I've always heard is that Hogan and Piper went to Vince to get him fired in mid 86, claiming that he was too focused on his Carolina boys. But let's look at that for a second. Steamboat's biggest storyline didn't begin until after Scott was fired. Valentine, well yeah he went from IC and tag champ to mid card tag team member but who else is there that was getting this supposed favored treatment? Does anyone else know if Scott imposed these same rules during his run as WWF booker at the start of the boom period? And yes booking a 70,000 seat arena was simply insane. WCW was entering a phase where 10,000 people at a show paid was nigh high impossible so I don't know what they were thinking here. This must be the best example of Turner's hands off disinterested attitude towards WCW coming back to bite them in the ass.

Are we allowed to post on these if we didn't buy the set (wasn't a member yet)? If not just delete this post. Anyway I remember this segment like it was yesterday because it was the moment I realized beyond a shadow of a doubt wrestling wasn't real. My logic as a 10 year old was flawless. Sgt. Slaughter was still doing live intros to repeats of GIJoe on the USA network at the time, and there's no way the network would allow that if he had an Iraqi as a manager. Maybe as a misguided heel sure, but a traitor, not a chance in heck. So this was the moment I accepted what so many friends and other kids had told me for years that everything wasn't real and on the up and up.

Finished the whole podcast today. I sort of agree with about George Scott Parv, but I would put it as two steps forward and two steps back. I guess the clean finishes mean that much to me, although really how much more clean is the shoulder lift finish I guess? Do we have any Observers at this time to know when Windham was on the way out? Because yeah he really should have put Luger over better than this, it was surely counter-productive if this was the case. The thing I like most about this series (and the reason I think most smart fans love it) is because it's just about the closest wrestling post 84 comes to being plausibly real. You can genuinely feel the competition between both men from bell to bell and it's not a "you turned on me I want to kick your ass" sort of wrestling hatred it's the same sort of rivalry you get when Larry Bird and Magic Jordan played each other (Or Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, though they never technically play against each other I guess so poor analogy there). It's genuine desire to be the best and god Flair plays his frustration to the hilt very well. Put me down as thinking this is the best match of the series to be honest. When you get to Beach Blast 93 here's a funny story to share. For literally every week for five years I had a close friend on my street who got NWA wrestling but whose parents were sort of anti social and never let his friends in the house. Week in and week out I had to hear how great NWA/WCW was and how cartoonish WWF was and how it didn't take wrestling seriously enough. I finally got cable in the summer of 93 and the very first WCW thing I ever saw was..........The Beach Blast mini movie. I didn't let him live that one down for years afterwards.

Maybe he doesn't consider Arn and Tully a WWF tag team. They had what, a 14 month run or so?

Listening to this right now. You might want to kill me for suggesting this Parv, but given how much time is dedicated to him and that Bash 89 is his all time favorite WCW/NWA show, you should probably ask Scott Keith to do that podcast with you guys. If anything it might make for entertaining listening. I do think he's learned a little bit but I was a fan back in 98 of his and he did introduce me, like so many others, to the smark perspective so I'm probably a little more generous than you although I agree with the general criticism of his books.

A ton of people replaced Mooney/Hayes. Even JR and the Brain did one CHV release that wasn't a PPV. Gorilla and Stan Lane did a lot of stuff too, but remember there were only a handful of random match tapes by 96. 1995 was really it for CHV random stuff, though most of the Gorilla/Polo stuff was on 94 releases. The 2nd tape called Wrestling's Bloopers, Bleeps and Bodyslams and Inside the WWF contain a good portion of their work together. They also did All American Wrestling Sundays at noon on the USA network together for a while.

Both were readily available in my neck of the woods if you had cable. I remember being psyched to watch all sorts of different wrestling when we finally got cable in the summer of 1993. I had a friend who'd been watching NWA since about 89 or so and regularly extolled its virtues but I never got to watch it. Part of it may have been the time slot being bad for kids. Whose parents want to let their kids invite friends over and watch TV on a Saturday night? You're usually out doing something. Whereas Superstars and Challenge would be on early afternoon and usually my parents wouldn't watch TV. They were of the generation that watched TV only after dinner at night and so WCW proved a problem to get them to let me watch the WWF never did. I knew about Prime Time, but never actually saw a first run episode either.

You know thinking it over I might have seen virtually every Warrior squash but no not likely. I mean I went on vacation every now and then as a kid and certainly didn't watch wrestling. Nope the answer is Trish Stratus. I happen to know this because I dropped cable the week after she retired (just a coincidence) and haven't watched wrestling regularly since (I was losing interest anyway, though I do watch the odd PPV, Raw, TNA or ROH show with friends). I was, and still am, a total mark for a woman who doesn't have to learn to work in the slightest to have a career, but did anyway, married her high school beau rather than date say George Clooney, and is in my opinion the best overall women's performer of the 2000's in the US. My other shameful wrestling moment is that we got cable for the first time in June 1993. The very first non WWF related thing I ever saw was the Beach Blast mini movie. And the only WCW/NWA tape my video store had on Betamax (which is what we had till then) was Starrcade 1990 so I might be the only person in history whose first Ric Flair match was him not wrestling as Ric Flair. I saw that match and wondered what the big deal was when he was unmasked. Anyway back to this I'm going to have to rewatch the Bees match, because if it's that good it's definitely the best match the Bees ever put on. Adequate is a very polite compliment to those guys for a lot of their WWF run. The Dream Team is another team I might put in a top 20, but it seems sort of silly because basically I'm just putting Greg Valentine in there really.