thebrainfollower

Flair I am not sure is a good example of your point Parv. Look at some of those TV matches. He's going 50/50 with Jim Neidhart and getting destroyed by Tito Santana and Shawn Michaels (who's only a bit above Buswhacker Luke in the pecking order) for 90% of the match before getting fluke wins. As a kid my reaction when I saw those matches (didn't have cable but friends did) was "Hogan's gonna kill this loser". Compare that to the way Undertaker completely destroys Jimmy Snuka, a much more effective way of building up a heel. Vince's short sightedness in not going Warrior/Earthquake is really mind boggling. Warrior was "his" guy, his pet project and he just completely blows it. And they already had a ready made story (Earthquake debuted attacking Warrior, had interfered with Warrior twice after that before Wrestlemania). It's so obvious and logical I wonder if it wasn't suggested and Hogan threatened to leave. Hogan's pretty much admitted he worked at sabotaging the Warrior's title run anyway. As for Powers of Pain I don't think that would work. The problem with Warrior is that you need a competent ring general (Savage, Dibiase, Rude, Perfect to a lesser extent) who can dictate the pace and work the match out. Warrior-Warlord would have been about the same quality as Warrior-Hercules two years earlier and I'm sure even Vince realized that wasn't a good enough match to main event his shows. Barbarian has cooler moves, but I've never felt he really understood how to put a great match together himself (gimme some examples, happy to be proved wrong on that) Bam Bam's not a bad idea but if Hogan is feuding with a big fat guy...Warrior should not. They really should have paired Hogan up with someone else in the summer.

Using JVK's first post I will say this Undertaker is a bigger star than the Silverhawks. Anyone wanna argue that point?

I'm an Undertaker mark. As a kid I loved the old Universal horror movies and when the Undertaker debuted he was like a character from those movies come to life (watch Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein, see how Dracula interacts with the monster and tell me he and Paul Bearer didn't get the idea from that movie) and I was an instant fan. I was the only kid cheering in the Worcester Centrum when he first challenged Hulk Hogan and his six day world title run in 1991 were some of my crowing moments in our schoolyard. Other than Bikertaker I've stayed a fan since. And even I wouldn't say he was ever a bigger star than Hulk Hogan. More respected by a larger % of his peers? Absolutely (though I am sure DDP has a different viewpoint). Had better matches over a longer number of years? hmmm maybe. I would say Hogan 82-87 was doing better work than Taker except for his very best matches. But more known or as known to the public? Not a chance in hell. Hulk Hogan is the biggest star in US wrestling of the last 50 years by a MILE. He made wrestling national. He literally drew half the house in match after match. His merchandise sales ushered in the modern era of wrestling. And when he was stale, dull as dishwater and "washed up" he turned heel and turned a good angle white hot and kicked his older mentor's ass in the ratings for 2 years. Those are accomplishments even the Undertaker can't come within a mile of reaching. And I love and respect him tons more than I do Hogan.

The more I see of Steamboat, the more I think he's overrated. Plus he's a terrible draw from at least his WWF run on. His rematches with Savage drew lousy and his vaunted Flair series did worse. He's a great guy but honestly at this point I'd rather watch AWA-Strike Force breakup Tito over him.

Is this for male wrestlers only or are their no women who have cracked the top 100? Be curious to see the top 5 females in TV time.

I was about to lambast JDW about his calling JCP's expansion plans clear, but then I thought about it for a minute and compared to AWA's they certainly were. That's sort of a back handed compliment IMO (you tell me if that was the intention) because there were tons of things JCP did that just made no sense and helped cause the company's financial collapse. Some of them are just mind blowingly dumb. I mean didn't Barry Windham, who basically freaked out on the insane WWF travel schedule in 85 see the parallels and try to reason with his best friend Dusty? Why did they think using a private jet for all those short trips and crafting a travel schedule that looks like a kindgertartener drawing a tornado was a good idea? It doesn't demean my view that Vince is a great businessman but cripes he had some first rate morons as opponents at times.

Yup Memphis was the last. I consider SMW a territory but not ECW. ECW ran in too many places. It went from an indy federation to something bigger than a territory pretty fast.

JDW it happened way before DVD, it started in 1989 when Batman came out on VHS for only $24.99 and sold like gangbusters. That wasn't seen as a special one off like Star Wars (remember my point about Hollywood usually needing TWO examples to start a trend). Within a few years, low priced VHS tapes of everything were available. To put into perspective how fast this change was in 1989 Universal had put out only 8 of its classic horror movies on VHS (all for $50-80 and some whose selling point was critic Gene Shallit on the cover). By 1992 you could get over 40 of them on VHS for $15 a pop. The video market exploded in the very early 90's and owning stuff became the norm. DVD certainly expanded that field but it was done with VHS.

Many times JVK on house shows but always with Flair as champ. Warrior won em all via DQ or countout.

I rewatched the Rude-Warrior match last night. Sorry Jerry but JDW is 100% right here. This is not a Rude match. Not a Warrior match. I'd be willing to say Rude did more than Warrior but he most definitely did not carry him in that match. Happy to have someone rewatch it and argue that point move for move.

It's sad to think but given their inclusion in the BG DVD, those two Dusty matches are probably the most seen matches of the 70's today.

I would assume he's talking about the match Flair mentions in his book where he basically wrestles himself.

Not to be difficult with that but has anyone here ever seen Bret/Magee? Seems unfair to call it a carry job unless you actually watch it.

I would agree with this to a point. But how do you handle something like say, Central States, where everything I've seen is pretty mediocre with an exception here and there. Just a lousy promotion with no real highs we have left?

Listening to this now and I completely agree with the praise on Santana-Valentine. That surgery was the first angle I remember. Though WM I wasn't Tito's comeback match, he had even fought the Hammer at MSG in a lumberjack match 2 weeks before Wrestlemania (in a card that baffles me, TWO weeks before your biggest show of your run as promoter if you're Vince). Tito had been back for quite a while at that point. But yeah those matches are absolutely amazing. It's the highlight of Tito's career by a mile (Although the Savage series is almost as good) and the last great hurrah of Greg Valentine's singles career (the 89-90 Garvin stuff is good, but nowhere near the quality of this feud). About Macho Man I agree that Vince never even gave 10 seconds worth of consideration to the NWA blacklisting. Why would he care in 85? I think he might have been waiting till Savage got some experience in a promotion not run by his dad but still in a top spot. Savage was brought in at the perfect time in my opinion. On Savage-Elizabeth does anyone know who's idea that was? Vince? Savage? George Scott? Personally I think Savage-Santana and Savage-Steamboat were miles ahead of Savage-Magnum's potential but I consider both of those guys much better workers than Magnum ever got to be. The cage match between Santana-Bruno vs. Savage-Adonis occurred months before the Steamboat angle BTW. I think you guys meant Ron Shaw. I also think it's sad that with Steamboat it's ALL in the chase. His rematches with Savage drew lousy gates for the most part and I bet that played a big part in Vince's decision to take the title off him when he asked for time off and not use him much after that. Steamboat was also a lousy drawing champ in 89. As the champion headliner (the Savage-Steamboat rematches were almost all main events) Ricky Steamboat was a major letdown in both of his most famous runs. Warrior as worse than Mongo? Are you guys serious? I mean look I will never defend Warrior as a good worker, but he was carryable to good and even great matches. He had great matches with Hogan, Savage and Rude and good ones with Perfect and Dibiase. Who did Mongo ever have a great match with? I'm not counting Uncensored 97 but name me one Mongo match that even comes within a mile of being as good as Warrior-Savage at WM VII. There's bias and then there's just losing any sense of reality and this podcast jumped the shark at this absurd comparison I'm sorry. Warrior was a major part of the end of the biggest boom in wrestling history, a guy anyone from that era remembers. Mongo as a wrestler is an amusing footnote at best. Warrior's promos were effective for little kids, though I admit I have no clue what he's talking about more often than not anymore than anyone else ever did. And I don't think Rude-Warrior was as one sided as you guys did, though I agree Rude did the majority of the work. I'm sorry you're just flat out wrong to say Warrior did NOTHING in Summerslam 89. I'd be happy to watch it with you guys and point out specific things Warrior brought. Did Rude do 75% of the work. Sure probably but to say Warrior accomplished nothing is funny. "He was there". Wow that's sad. Go back and watch again to see how Warrior changed his game to make it seem like an epic battle. He brought something to the table in big big matches. Warrior had to regain the title. That was sort of the whole point, he was the only OTHER guy who never really lost a feud other than Hogan. If Rude had beaten Warrior up at the Rumble, taken his title at WM and Warrior just walks away and says eehhhh that makes Warrior look like a massive pussy and nowhere near the level of invincible he needed to be for the Ultimate Challenge at WM to work. The better plan would have been to find a new opponent for Warrior after WM VI, I disagree the loss really hurt Rude that much, there were circumstances as extenuating as Steamboat's win and he moved into the C main even program with Piper. Now losing that feud and then drifting for months after, that hurt him more than Summerslam ever did. Tito was sort of slightly built back up for the Perfect feud. The Matador stuff was more than a year away actually, and after the perfect matches he drifted into pure JTTS territory. Piper never wrestled small is the sort of great insight I love to hear. Don't want to sound too down on this podcast after the Warrior remarks, that was only real source of contention. And I'm not even a Warrior fan at all.

To reply to your thoughts Jerry, no you probably can't 100% but that fact shouldn't matter in the slightest. It's only wrestling for cripes sakes. It's not like we're talking about a historian born and raised in Nazi Germany who writes things in the 80's that reflect those prejudices. David Irving isn't on this board you know. I mean what's the worst damage you can do? Have a slightly (Or largely) biased view towards a form of entertainment that's only broadly touched being mainstream off and on throughout its history. To answer your questions I was raised on the Hulkamania era. But my favorites as a kid were Tito Santana (His feud with the hammer was the first I remember a bit), the Bulldogs, Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage (awesome as a face or heel) and much later Bret Hart. So I wasn't 100% into what Vince McMahon wanted me to think as the epitome of pro wrestling. I actually enjoy Hogan matches a lot more now than I did then. However it did prejudice me. I was taught that in the end, more often than not good triumphs over evil in wrestling. That's my biggest problem with Crockett, the good guys almost NEVER really win. When they do it's a batshit happy moment (think Barry/Lex winning the tag titles) and then what happens? A few weeks later Barry turns and the status quo is restored. Yokozuna's run was a black hole for most of my friends who gave up on the WWF because of that precise reason (I still recall two friends giving up forever when Lex only won via countout) and it's why the HHH era made me give up on wrestling (that and I thought the guy was the biggest untalented political parasite I had ever seen in wrestling at that point). So finishes matter a lot more to me than they probably objectively should. But so what? Also there's a nostalgia factor to me in wrestling. It reminds me of simple days, sitting in my parents living room, finishing a hot dog lunch, cartoons are over and its time for Superstars of Wrestling then Challenge. There's nothing wrong with that. I like to think I've grown as an objective critic since then but I don't WANT to go all the way. Then it stops being fun. Being a wrestling fan should always be fun first and foremost. Remember that.

Guys HHH called me in tears. He's clearly realized he needs to work on his long winded promos and is using some of the posts in this thread as inspiration. But yeah there's arguing a point and there's..........hell you know what I am not kidding. You two should fight in a cage, I think it would be more productive than this. Having said that I think JVK is right about thing. Vince McMahon was an innovator. Just because SOME of these things existed in the freaking 10's and 20's should not discount what a different, new product the presentation of the WWF was to anything wrestling in the US had done in a long long time. If anyone else really can't see that then they are just arguing out of blind hatred or ignorance of the facts.

As a 12 year old those matches really excited me because Superstars and Challenge were all I got and it made it seem to me that Bret wasn't too good to appear on those shows the way the rest of the champs had traditionally been. It made me a big fan of his title run. Looking back at it, I think I take your point.

Listening to this now. One thing, you guys talk about Bret Hart's first feud as WWF champ being with Shawn Michaels. I would argue that's not correct. They never feuded in 92 they had one random meaningless match at Survivor Series booked that happened to then become a world title match when Bret got the title. But there weren't any angles or a storyline to this match. Bret was instead going around the horn with Nailz of all people for the first few days after winning the title. After that he seemed to face Papa Shango around the horn a decent number of times then Rick Martel (who seems to be subbing for the Mountie). Bret wasn't given a fair chance IMO at the start he didn't have a main even opponent for house shows, he didn't have a ready made feud, instead he fought a bunch of mid carders same as he did on tv. A program with Shawn MIGHT have been a good idea but with the roster stretched the way it was the IC champ feuding with the World champ might not have worked. Eventually Flair comes back and is put into a program with Bret. Flair however was not a great draw in the WWF, decent against Hogan, mediocre against everyone else in that 91-93 run.

JDW vs. Jerry Von Kramer at WM 30. With the ghosts of Gordon Solie and Gorilla Monsoon on the mic. Jesse Ventura training JVK in humorous montages beforehand. I'd pay money to see it.

One small thing JDW you talk about how Hulk etc were in development before Spiderman. You're right. But Hollywood always has tons of projects in development that never got made. I had a friend who's a screenwriter at Columbia and he's gone into detail to me about how once Spiderman was a hit, every studio was interested in Marvel. Hulk was a good exception because it had been a popular tv series well remembered. Anyone in 2002 who remembered the Spiderman series wish they hadn't. The others I am convinced without Spidey's success might not have happened. Yeah X2 got made because X-Men was a success. But a lot of those other movies would never have left development if Spiderman had flopped. Your average movie exec would simply have said "eh one hit wonder" and let it go. Just like none of those SW ripoffs ever made much money. Except Flash Gordon but calling that a SW rip off is rather like saying Stalin ripped off Kim Jong Il. There's always been superhero movies? Well yes. There were serials in the 40's, then Batman in 66. But not much came from that. Superman was a hit, and led to some fairly silly TV stuff around the same time frame. Batman 89 led to its own series, and a few pulp revivals (Shadow, Phantom). But I'd argue it's only in the last 10 years that the top ten blockbusters each year consistently have 3-4 superhero movies among them. There was always wrestling before 80's WWF just not as successful either. The story I've heard JDW is that Vince got a huge amount of cash up front for the video rights to the WWF. He basically got Evart/Coliseum/whoever to pony up a huge amount of cash up front to be the exclusive distributor of WWF videos. Now how this small company got the cash is beyond me (given where it was located it would be fairly amusing to find out it was mob money ala Maniac Cop 2 and TCM) but that's what happened. And then the home video sales of Wrestlemania kicked in and were huge. It was only $40 and a 3 hour tape when 60-90 for a movie was typical at the time. Action figure sales were important for the first 2 waves of figures I'm told. Every wrestler I've ever asked made in those waves has confirmed this (Piper, Snuka, Valentine, Sheik, Orndorff and Bundy, the only action figure possible to use as a murder weapon). After that it seemed to have dropped off a TON (simple answer being the cartoon show was cancelled). WWF a critical flop? With who? Meltzer? If there's anyone movie critics could laugh at at having less influence it would be wrestling critics. And you might not have read the basic of my comparison with Hogan/Reagan. It was a Hogan can do whatever he wants and cheat like crazy, be a jerk and screw his friends but that's okay because he's Hogan. He was the Teflon Champ.

You got that right JVK. I get the feeling there could have been a 20 minute "things we hate about Vince McMahon" discussion during a random Crush match and no one would ever have noticed.

Did that cost anyone any serious money though? Or did that just confirm the companies had to go it alone. Sort of as it Paramount, RKO, Fox and WB teamed against MGM in 1935 to do a few movies.

Scottish. Prepare to get punched in the face the next time you meet a Scottish nationalist.

And I can scare the hell out of my new school wrestling friends when I showed this to them by being able to do Bobby's commentary word for word in sync with him.