Jimmy Redman

That 75 minute Bryan-Aries match. And technically a lot of Royal Rumbles.

It went about 1:50, but that includes Drew cutting a promo mid-match. There was just over a minute of action.

I've never been a match length snob. A great match is a great match no matter how long it takes. I've seen 2/3/4 minute matches that I've loved and would have no hesitation in calling great. I think a part of this is that I've always been a fan of Divas matches and they are generally short as hell. Whether it's them or any short match, I find seeing what they can fit into a very short space of time to be impressive.

I love how that happened and the consequence is (allegedly) that Kofi gets dropped, and not the guy who was being unprofessional as fuck in the ring. But there you go.

Yeah seriously, their first match is a million times better. More heat, bigger feel, better work, a coherent story, and no Kurt Angle tribute. The interesting thing about WM28 is that Cena kind of, sort of...works heel in it. Like going by crowd reactions Cena is the heel in most of his matches. But he never wrestles as if he's the heel. He may work as "face vs clearly more popular face" and he may throw in some cute prickish stuff for certain crowds, but he still works as Superface Cena. But here for the Rock match, after the build up in which he was, for all intents and purposes, a heel, but without anyone coming out and saying it, they get to the match and Cena works it as if he's a heel, in the sense that he works dominant and takes over Rock and has a control segment. Which is something he hadn't really done since 2003. What's even better about that is that Cena works heel and...it doesn't work all that well. Throughout the match, any time Cena gets a bit too dickish, he loses the momentum. He stops to play with the crowd for too long, Rock hits him with something. He taunts in the middle of a move, Rock counters the move. When Cena knuckles down and just wrestles like he normally does, he's fine, but he's seemingly possessed by this need to play the bad guy against Rock, and it backfires on him when he gets out of hand and really embraces the role of a heel. Maybe he's not used to it. Maybe it's just not who Cena is. Maybe there's a moral there that being a good guy is better than being a bad guy. But whatever the reason it's his Achilles Heel in this match, and it culminates in Cena getting Rock down and he just CANNOT, will not resist the chance to hit the Rock Bottom on the Rock. So he laughs and taunts and throws the sweatband and runs and jumps and bounces and BAM, he's caught and gets pinned. He goes for dick moves, and they cost him the ascendancy. He goes for the ultimate dick move, and it costs him the match.

Ahh you've seen Cena/Umaga. I was just about to tell you to skip ahead to that, because if that match didn't do anything for you then you can close the book because nothing he does will ever impress you ever. Maybe I was thinking more of the build to Cena/Dave, but the entire story is a very nice "good beats evil" kind of story. Dave is the big bully heel who stole the title and happened to break Cena's neck the last time they fought. So here we are and at WM, Cena starts out a bit uncertain, and they're thinking maybe Cena is worried about getting hurt, or that he can't beat Dave. But as the hero does he mans up against adversity, then in the key moment he eats the big powerbomb off the top (which was a little botched but whatever) that broke his neck in 2008, but this time he KICKS, and goes on to submit the big bully. Good triumphs over evil, Superman overcomes the odds, everyone is happy. It's just nice. And yeah to echo, Cena/Rock II is not that great, it's one of the worst matches I threw out there, but it is an example of Cena playing video games, for better or worse. It was actually the exact moment I started to worry that Cena was turning into Kurt Angle. WM28 is a great match and I love it.

I was so happy when I went to a house show a couple months ago and got to see Sheamus vs Cesaro live. Great, great shit. I recently came across what I wrote about Sheamus' 2012, which I thought was a fantastic calendar year.

If by being a prick you mean the opening stuff with the STF teases, then yeah I think that stuff does need the context of the build and the WM match. In general it was basically Cena giving back to Shawn what he gave to him. The ENTIRE build to their WM match was centred around Cena and Shawn being feuding tag team champs (I know) and the idea that "well, at some point before Mania Shawn is going to turn on Cena and Sweet Chin Music the fuck out of him. It's inevitable." And so every week they'd tease it, and every time they were in the ring together Cena would be looking over his shoulder and Shawn would be lying in wait, or pretending to, or pretending not to. And then finally on the go-home show at the very last possible moment, Shawn finally catches him off guard and superkicks the fuck out of him. So there was always that whole "it only takes one second for Shawn to hit SCM" that often gets played up with Shawn, and it definitely was here. The WM match began by Shawn working as the 'Greatest of All Time' and outwrestling Cena for a long time. Then he took over Cena's knee and worked that over. Cena came off like he was getting schooled a bit and was "off his game". (WM is worth watching as an example of a Cena sell job that a lot of people take issue with, even though I don't. I have a lot to say about that match as well.) The story of WM was that Shawn wrestled perfectly, was winning for long periods and tried as hard as he could...and still lost. Cena still came out of it through his heart and blah blah blah. So I think when it comes to the Raw match, the pressure that Cena had going into a WM title defense against the "Greatest of All Time" was gone. He won. He made Shawn submit. So when Shawn keeps blathering on about "I'm still better than you", even though it's coming from the GOAT and Cena respects him, it is ringing a lot more hollow now. Cena no longer feels like a kid going up against him, which is how he came across at the start of the WM match. All of which feeds into the opening. Here Cena is like ten times as confident as he was before. He knows he can take him. So it's time to give a little back, make Shawn jump by threatening him with the STF at any moment. Just like Shawn threatened him with SCM before. Cena keeps using the headlock and controlling Shawn because it was Shawn who was controlling him at Mania. It's a little dickish, but Shawn was already being a dick to him. As an aside on that point, that's one of the things I like about their matches, the fact that at times they both do come off a little dickish. These two do not like each other. They're both babyfaces, there's respect there and they don't hate each other...but still, they don't like each other. And they act accordingly. They jerk each other around. And they get offended when the other guy jerks them around. One of my favourite parts of this opening was Shawn's pissed off reaction to it. When Cena teases using the STF that Shawn tapped to at Mania, Shawn doesn't sell exaggerated fear of the deadly move. He doesn't laugh it off as a cutesy warning shot. He is PISSED OFF that Cena has the fucking temerity to try and use his finisher two seconds into the match and taunt him about it. Who the FUCK is this guy?! It's complete and utter outrage that this guy is making a fool of him. It's a real reaction. If the match were hypothetically real and that hypothetically happened, that is exactly how Shawn would react. I love the feel that these matches have that it is two guys who don't like each other trying as hard as they can to beat the other guy in a wrestling match. Another minor point but a lot of the spots in the match - particularly the attempted piledriver on the stairs - are playing off Mania as well. The stairs piledriver was a big moment in the first match. I now regret not telling you to watch Mania first. I just figured you'd only want to sit through one overly long Shawn Michaels main event.

Well OJ you wanted the whole picture. Cena wasn't anywhere near the worker he is now when he was a midcarder. Like Childs said it took until about 2006, even though he had some strong performances and some great matches before that. But midcard Cena is a whole different beast. I'm just trying to present an honest overview of his whole career, good, bad or indifferent. That is basically what Cena looked like in 2004. Everything you're looking for - timing, control, confidence, talent - only really comes through when he becomes The Man. I guess in that way he's a fantastic example of a guy growing into his role. And yeah, Dupree was pretty mediocre. In fact the majority of Cena's midcard run was an assembly line of very ordinary opponents - Dupree, a thousand matches with Booker T, rookie Carlito, Jesus, Kenzo fucking Suzuki...

Not in the least. The attempted comparison to Backlund to scare you off doesn't hold up, because your problem with Bob seems to be thst he doesn't really sell much at all or give his opponents much. Cena isn't like that whatsoever. He sells and gives a lot, and then makes a big comeback. The selling issue is essentially what you think of those comebacks. He's far more Bruno/Hogan/Sting than Bob.

Yeah but I don't think whoever it was who made the original comment (Grimmas?) was trolling. He just mentioned that he ranked 50 guys ahead of him in a certain year. I don't see any malice or trolling in that. You may completely disagree with his assessment, but that doesn't mean it's still not a valid opinion.

I get digging Angle, but you're going to have to show your working on "tremendous storytelling" and "sells really well".

The fact that these guys have to work THIS stupidly, while the announcers point out how stupidly they're wrestling, the heels point out how stupidly they're wrestling, and anyone with eyes can see how stupidly they're wrestling...that is an epic fail of a stip. Are all pole matches this bad? Or was it just easier to hide before when you didn't have announcers burying everything?

To be honest I can see how his indy run plus his tag team run with Kendrick in WWE makes him worth a look.

Hey PG-13 were awesome. But this is all probably better served in the Shawn thread, or at least out of here.

Still, as long as he's not featured any more as a face than he currently is now as a Rollins lackey, I don't really care if he turns face. At least we'll get better TV wrestling out of it. I enjoyed Orton in 2011 as a babyface ace having weekly good matches much more than I had for many years before or since.

He's generally better in the ring, but it's pretty much a wash in terms of character or possibly giving a shit about him.

I actually like the first match of the series, the Pure Rules one from April 2006 the best.

I think the general point is that there's nothing wrong with ranking Shawn outside of a 1996 Top 50, Tanahashi outside of a 2013 Top 50, or anyone outside of an anything Top whatever, if you really feel that 50 other wrestlers are better and can back up your opinion.

My Stomper List for Sheamus. THE AWESOME FOURSOME Sheamus vs John Morrison (Ladder Match) – TLC 2010 Sheamus vs Daniel Bryan (2/3 Falls) – Extreme Rules 2012 Sheamus vs Big Show – Hell in a Cell 2012 Sheamus vs Cesaro – Main Event 5th June 2013 _____________________ Sheamus vs Goldust – Superstars 13th August 2009 Sheamus vs Goldust (No DQ) – ECW 1st September 2009 --- I haven't seen them since they happened but the Goldust series was an early glimpse of Sheamus' promise. These are just the main matches. ‘Breakthrough Battle Royal’ – Raw 23rd November 2009 Sheamus vs John Cena (Tables Match) – TLC 2009 Sheamus vs Triple H (Street Fight) – Extreme Rules 2010 Sheamus & Edge vs Cena & Bourne – Raw 31st May 2010 Sheamus vs Orton vs Cena vs Edge – Fatal Four Way 2010 Sheamus vs John Morrison (Falls Count Anywhere) – Raw 13th September 2010 Sheamus vs Orton vs Cena vs Barrett vs Jericho vs Edge – Night of Champions 2010 Sheamus vs John Morrison (KOTR Final) – Raw 29th November 2010 Sheamus vs John Morrison (Ladder Match) – TLC 2010 --- This is fantastic, one of the best singles ladder matches ever, just for how differently it's worked. Sheamus uses ladders to beat the utter fuck out of Morrison's leg. Nasty leg work and some really brutal bumps. Sheamus vs Kofi Kingston (Tables) – Extreme Rules 2011 Sheamus vs Randy Orton (No DQ) – Smackdown 10th June 2011 Sheamus vs Mark Henry – Summerslam 2011 Sheamus vs Mark Henry – Smackdown 26th August 2011 Sheamus & Orton vs Barrett & Cody – Smackdown 18th November 2011 Sheamus & Zack vs Dolph & Swagger – Smackdown 25th November 2011 Sheamus vs Wade Barrett (Tables) – Smackdown 20th January 2012 Sheamus & Show vs Barrett & Cody – Smackdown 10th February 2012 Sheamus vs Daniel Bryan (2/3 Falls) – Extreme Rules 2012 Sheamus vs Daniel Bryan – Smackdown6th May 2012 Sheamus vs Daniel Bryan - Smackdown 6th May 2012 --- The Bryan feud rules. 2/3 Falls is just amazing, a fantastic title match. And that isn't a typo, they had two matches on that SD episode, a two-minute opener that lead into the main event, which was a tremendous display of arm work from Bryan and arm selling from Sheamus. Sheamus vs Randy Orton – Smackdown 18th May 2012 Sheamus vs Orton vs Alberto vs Jericho – Over the Limit 2012 Sheamus vs Jack Swagger – Smackdown 25th May 2012 Sheamus vs Dolph Ziggler – Smackdown 1st June 2012 Sheamus vs Tensai – Raw 11th June 2012 Sheamus vs Dolph Ziggler – No Way Out 2012 Sheamus vs Dolph Ziggler – Smackdown 22nd June 2012 --- These two are the best Dolph matches, but they're all good stuff. Sheamus works so well as the big babyface ace, and Dolph is the perfect pinballing heel to eat all of his offense. Sheamus vs Dolph vs Alberto – Smackdown 29th June 2012 Sheamus vs Chris Jericho – Smackdown 13th July 2012 Sheamus vs Cody Rhodes – Smackdown 27th July 2012 Sheamus vs Daniel Bryan (Street Fight) – Raw 30th July 2012 Sheamus vs Tensai – Smackdown 3rd August 2012 Sheamus vs Damien Sandow – Raw 1st October 2012 Sheamus vs CM Punk – Main Event 3rd October 2012 Sheamus vs Wade Barrett – Raw 8th October 2012 Sheamus vs Big Show – Hell in a Cell 2012 --- A tremendous, tremendous heavyweight title match. It's one of those isolated "THIS is how Big Show should be booked" performances, and Sheamus the dominant ace is suddenly selling his ass off like John Cena. This is like the most well-earned finishing stretch of all time. Everyone has to watch this match. I cannot say enough about it. Sheamus vs Big Show – Survivor Series 2012 Sheamus vs Big Show (Chairs Match) – TLC 2012 Sheamus vs Dolph Ziggler – Main Event 9th January 2013 Sheamus vs Wade Barrett – Smackdown 25th January 2013 Cena, Ryback & Sheamus vs The Shield – Elimination Chamber 2013 Jericho, Ryback & Sheamus vs The Shield – Raw 18th February 2013 Sheamus vs Big Show – Smackdown 26th April 2013 Sheamus, Orton & Kofi vs The Shield – Smackdown 24th May 2013 Sheamus vs Wade Barrett – Main Event 29th May 2013 --- Sheamus and Barrett live to beat the utter shit out of one another. This is their best match together, and it just builds perfectly. Sheamus vs Cesaro – Main Event 5th June 2013 Sheamus vs Cesaro – Smackdown 14th June 2013 --- Another great match-up. These two do it all together - mat wrestling, big bombs, cool counters, and of course beating the shit out of one another. Sheamus vs Damien Sandow (Street Fight) – Smackdown 28th June 2013 Sheamus vs Daniel Bryan – Raw 8th July 2013 Sheamus vs Luke Harper – NXT 24th July 2013 Sheamus, Cena & Bryan vs The Shield – Raw 27th January 2014 Sheamus, Bryan & Rey vs The Shield – Smackdown 31st January 2014 Sheamus & Christian vs Real Americans – Raw 10th February 2014 Sheamus vs Wade Barrett – Raw 21st April 2014 Sheamus vs Titus O’Neil – Main Event 23rd April 2014 Sheamus vs Bray Wyatt – Main Event 30th April 2014 Sheamus vs Dean Ambrose – Smackdown 9th May 2014 Sheamus vs Cesaro – Payback 2014 Sheamus vs Wade Barrett – Raw 9th June 2014 Sheamus & Usos vs Wyatt Family – Raw 30th June 2014 Sheamus vs Cesaro – Night of Champions 2014

I apologise in advance for probably going well over budget by the end of this post, but I will at least try to go for breadth instead of depth. While my instinct is to recommend better matches (mainly because I don't want to be responsible for anyone sitting through shitty wrestling, life is too short), since you want the full picture, I tried to give a variety of performances and matches ranging from great to decent to problematic. Also tried not to repeat opponents, again for the purposes of variety, and I tried to come up with as many categories as possible. If you only watch one match from each category, I recommend those in bold. MIDCARD HEEL CENA Cena vs Brock Lesnar - Backlash 2003 (first world title shot) (link) Cena vs Undertaker - Vengeance 2003 (link) Cena vs Eddie Guerrero (Parking Lot Brawl) - Smackdown 11th September 2003 (link) Cena vs Rey Mysterio - Smackdown 6th November 2003 (link) MIDCARD FACE CENA Cena vs Rhyno (No DQ) - Smackdown 15th January 2004 (link) Cena vs Rene Dupree - Judgment Day 2004 Cena vs Booker T (Match 2 of Best of 5) - Smackdown 26th August 2004 (link) Cena vs Carlito - Smackdown 7th October 2004 (link) LONG, WORKRATE-Y MAIN EVENTS Cena vs Chris Jericho - Summerslam 2005 (link) Cena vs Shawn Michaels - Raw 23rd April 2007 (link) Cena vs CM Punk - Summerslam 2011 (link) Cena vs Dolph Ziggler - Raw 7th January 2013 (link) SELLING FOR MONSTERS Cena vs Umaga - New Year's Revolution 2007 Cena vs Great Khali - Judgment Day 2007 Cena vs Big Show (Cage Match) - No Way Out 2012 (link) VIDEO GAME-Y BOMB THROWING Cena vs CM Punk - Raw 25th February 2013 (link) Cena vs The Rock - Wrestlemania 29 (link) Cena vs Daniel Bryan - Summerslam 2013 MORE TRADITIONAL FACE/HEEL DYNAMIC Cena vs Randy Orton - Summerslam 2007 Cena vs Batista - Wrestlemania 26 (link) Cena vs Wade Barrett - Hell in a Cell 2010 OVERDRAMATIC SPORTZ ENTERTAINMENT STORYTELLING Cena vs Randy Orton (I Quit) - Breaking Point 2009 (link) Cena vs The Miz (I Quit) - Over the Limit 2011 Cena vs Bray Wyatt - Wrestlemania 30 (link) SELLING BODY PARTS Cena vs Shawn Michaels - Wrestlemania 23 (link) Cena, Bryan & Kane vs The Shield - Raw 29th April 2013 (link) Cena vs Damien Sandow - Raw 28th October 2013 (link) BRAWLS AND BLOODBATHS Cena vs JBL (I Quit) - Judgment Day 2005 (link) Cena vs Umaga (Last Man Standing) - Royal Rumble 2007 (link) Cena vs Edge (Last Man Standing) - Backlash 2009 (link) Cena vs Brock Lesnar - Extreme Rules 2012 (link) ACE VS MIDCARDER Cena vs Johnny Nitro - ECW 26th June 2006 Cena vs The Miz - The Bash 2009 Cena vs Justin Gabriel - Raw 6th September 2010 (link) Cena vs Seth Rollins - Smackdown 27th December 2013 (link) (just remembered this) ANTI-CENA CROWDS Cena vs Triple H - Wrestlemania 22 (link) Cena vs RVD - ECW One Night Stand 2006 (link) Cena vs Edge (TLC) - Unforgiven 2006 (link) Cena vs CM Punk - Money in the Bank 2011 (link) FACE VS FACE CLASHES Cena vs Lashley - Great American Bash 2007 Cena vs Batista - Summerslam 2008 Cena vs The Rock - Wrestlemania 28 (link) TAG TEAM MATCHES Cena & Michaels vs Rated RKO - Raw 28th January 2007 (link) Cena & Bourne vs Edge & Sheamus - Raw 31st May 2010 Cena & Rhodes Bros vs Cesaro, Swagger & Sandow - Raw 4th November 2013 VS NON-WRESTLERS Cena vs Vince McMahon - Raw 27th March 2006 (link) Cena vs Kevin Federline - Raw 1st January 2007 (link) Cena vs John Laurinaitis - Over the Limit 2012

It never occured to me that there were people starting from scratch with Cena. This is so exciting! I appreciate the idea of wanting to see a guy in different situations. To that end I'm going to try and come up with a primer that covers as many of those bases as I can. In other words, thank you for giving me an excuse to make another list.

Holy fucksticks. Almost every Tanahashi main event feels too long to me, because usually everything between the opening gambit and the big finishing run is boring as hell and inconsequential, I start thinking about what to have for dinner, then I realise I'm getting distracted and think maybe I shouldn't bother with another 25 minutes of this shit if I can't even concentrate on it, and then oh hey! Finishing run! Pops! Woo! It's mostly the Okada matches I'm thinking of with this. I think there was only one of their matches that I didn't get bored with halfway through. It's not often I make this point, but every one of their matches would be improved by cutting out 10 minutes. Admittedly this is also a symptom of modern puro main events in general because I feel that way about a lot of modern puro main events, but just woah.

I don't think it gets him anywhere near this list or anything, but to be fair to him, if you haven't seen him as Bully Ray you're missing out on his best work in the ring and as a singles wrestler. Like, by leaps and bounds. He's completely transformed. I highly recommend watching the following matches. vs AJ Styles (Last Man Standing) - TNA Slammiversary 2011 vs Austin Aries - TNA Sacrifice 2012