Jimmy Redman

If you're taking Henry (damn) then I bags Sheamus! No need to apologise, I didn't take it as snark at all. On lucha Rey, there's a tag with him and Sr. vs the Guerreras on Youtube that I've never got around to watching. Is it any good?

Can't believe we missed the Big Show. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/27153-sting-vs-the-giant-wcw-great-american-bash-061498/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/11624-lex-luger-vs-the-giant-wcw-starrcade-122996/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/25373-alberto-del-rio-vs-big-show-wwe-smackdown-011113-last-man-standing/

No offense meant Loss! I just had stomper's list on the brain I guess, and it was the recent talk about indy guys and due diligence that made me want to expand and also do a top four, so I was thinking of those kinds of topics rather than Flair. Plus "Stomper List" is catchy. For what it's worth your Flair lists are amazing in scope and when I start to look at Flair they'll be invaluable and my reference point. As an aside I think you'll like it when I explore Flair. I've seen quite a bit of him by now but so much of his 80s run is still completely new to me, so I'll be able to take him like any other candidate, whereas most other people are tired of Flair, or at least well versed in him already, hence the lack of talk about his case that you found frustrating.

The thing about the formula is the same thing that has already been pointed out about exposure/having all the footage available. It goes both ways. The WWE formula may be conducive to having baseline good matches (not sure everyone would agree with that, but let's say). It can also be said to be limiting in how far above "good" matches can get. The WWE formula may be idiot-proof, but it is also repetitive and cookie cutter, and the overabundance of WWE wrestling per week makes it even harder to stand out. Look at a guy like Randy Orton (who we should have a thread about now that I think of it). Think of how he's perceived most of the time, as a guy who is boring, stale, and has the same matches over and over ad nauseum. A guy who has "good" matches but not "great" ones. The formula may protect him from having too many actively bad matches, but it also works against him in terms of superlative matches. That would be my argument against that as a criticism of Cena. I think he does have a long list of "good" matches that it is unfair to compare to guys from other eras or companies, and you can call it "resume inflation" if you want (that's assuming that a long list of merely "good" matches without further analysis is worth something in these discussions) but I think that's far more an available footage argument than the idea that the WWE style is inherently better in and of itself.

Slam dunks as of today: AJ Styles Andre the Giant Arn Anderson Chris Benoit CM Punk Daniel Bryan Eddie Guerrero Jerry Lawler Jim Breaks John Cena Mark Henry Rey Mysterio Ric Flair Shawn Michaels Stan Hansen Steve Austin The Destroyer 17 names. Sounds about right given my blind spots include almost all of lucha, puro, joshi, indies, territories, Europe, the 90s, the 70s and anything prior to that. But I can't envision any of those guys falling completely off.

Well... For the pre-2005 period, I'd definitely include his debut vs Angle on Smackdown (12/6/02) and their match at No Mercy 2003. I know it's Angle, but his debut is actually a really fun babyface debut that puts him over really well (and shows Cena in his 2002 tights & armdrags mode, which I get a kick out of). In fact anything Cena did in 2002 as a babyface he looked surprisingly good in. There's a six-man tag with Edge and Rey vs Angle, Benoit & Eddie in I think August, and he also has a few other tag matches from the period. The No Mercy match gets worse with every viewing for me because Kurt Angle, but it was still a pretty good match and the first significant "workrate" match Cena had (in reputation rather than reality I mean). There's another Undertaker match from Smackdown, June 2004 that was really good too. I want to revisit the entire Booker T series, because I am a masochist. But also because I saw glimpses of them on Vintage Collection ages ago and they looked much better than I would have thought. For the 2005-07 period, Cena vs Umaga vs Khali on Raw, 4/7/07 is a no-brainer. Just balls of fun, although if you don't like the Khali matches then proceed with caution. I also absolutely love Cena vs K-Fed. 2008 onwards I can think of a few TV matches. Cena vs Shawn - Raw 12/1/09 Cena vs Big Show - Smackdown 27/2/09 Cena vs Jack Swagger - Raw April 2009 Cena vs Triple H - Raw 19/10/09 Cena vs Dolph Ziggler - Raw 20/12/10 Cena vs Dolph & Vickie - Smackdown 21/12/10 Cena vs Rey - Raw 25/7/11 Cena vs Big Show - Raw July 2012 Cena vs Alberto - Raw 24/12/12 (the Christmas match) Cena vs Cesaro - Raw whenever this was 2014

So I’ve taken the list I wrote on the first page and expanded and added notes and bold for great matches similar to what stomper did for Daniel Bryan. I think we should call them Stomper Lists for posterity. So this is my Stomper List for Rey Mysterio in WWE. Firstly though… THE AWESOME FOURSOME This is an idea I had after the talk about people doing “due diligence” on wrestlers and styles that they are unfamiliar with and/or have no interest in. When confronted with someone’s entire career, or even a comprehensive list of recommendations (as fantastic a tool as they are), it’s hard to know where to start, and the idea of sitting through dozens of matches from some random worker can be daunting. So basically my idea for Rey and whoever else I do lists for is that the "Awesome Foursome" is where you start. Just a snapshot of their best matches or performances for someone who is completely unfamiliar with them (or in this case, a certain period of their career) to sample. Four matches, that’s easy, someone could knock them out in a day or two tops. Obviously we’d all like to watch as much wrestling as possible for this, but realistically we can only see so much in the next 18 months, especially from those workers/styles/eras we're not prioritising. I deliberately went for the “awesome” stuff because you want to be able to say “If you watch these matches and still don’t like/aren’t interested in X at all, you can clearly move on to something more worth your time.” And if you watch them and DO get something out of them, you have the rest of the Stomper List to continue watching from. Obviously Rey’s WWE work isn’t exactly the great unknown for the vast majority of people, but I’m just starting with Rey as an example since I already had most of the list posted on Page 1. I think guys who are pimping/invested in relatively unfamiliar names (like the modern indy guys) would be doing people a service to come up with a couple of top matches for those guys just to get people going. OJ’s method of posting one match per worker as a sampler for WoS is another fantastic way of opening the door to an entire style. At this stage for people with gaps it’s all about being able to find a place to start and diving in. And again I know I’m not telling anyone anything they don’t already know by pimping big modern WWE stuff, but even if nobody else gets anything out of it, it’s also helping me organise my thoughts by seeing all of the matches in one place and trying to separate the good matches from the bolded matches from the Awesome Foursome matches. Anyway, so for Rey they are: Rey Mysterio vs Kurt Angle – Smackdown 23rd January 2003 Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero – Smackdown 23rd June 2005 Rey Mysterio vs Chris Jericho (Mask vs Title) – The Bash 2009 Rey Mysterio vs John Cena – Raw 25th July 2011 My thoughts on the matches can be found below in the list. As per stomper, the bolded matches are especially great and worth watching. REY MYSTERIO IN WWE Rey vs Chavo, Smackdown 25th July 2002 --- Rey’s debut in WWE, and a fun showcase for him. Rey vs Kurt Angle, Summerslam 2002 Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 12th Sept 2002 --- I think Rey is easily, by leaps and bounds, Angle’s best opponent. All of their matches are at least good, and Rey reigns him in tremendously because when Angle faces him, he abandons most of the overkill nonsense and instead becomes the obnoxious jock bully who shows ass, which is basically who Angle should be all the time. Rey vs Chris Benoit, Smackdown 3rd Oct 2002 Rey & Edge vs Angle & Benoit, No Mercy 2002 Rey & Edge vs Angle & Benoit (2/3 Falls), Smackdown 7th Nov 2002 --- I know the Smackdown Six era stuff is controversial for some, but I honestly love it. Sometimes you need a bit of overkill, a bit of action, and everyone involved made for a really fun few months of TV wrestling. I cannot state enough how much I love these tag matches. Rey vs Eddie Guerrero, Smackdown 14th Nov 2002 Rey & Edge vs Angle & Benoit vs Los Guerreros, Survivor Series 2002 Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 23rd Jan 2003 --- Their best match together and a fantastic TV sprint. This is basically the definition of a “cat and mouse” match. You must watch this. Rey vs Matt Hardy, Smackdown 5th June 2003 Rey & Kidman vs WGTT, Vengeance 2003 Rey vs Tajiri, Smackdown 4th Sept 2003 Rey vs Tajiri, No Mercy 2003 Rey vs Brock Lesnar, Smackdown 11th December 2003 --- Somehow, some way they manage to create a compelling, competitive match out of this complete mis-match. I could have gone bold on this but I want to rewatch it first. Rey vs Tajiri, Smackdown 1st Jan 2004 Rey vs Eddie Guerrero, Smackdown 18th March 2004 Rey vs Jamie Noble, Velocity 1st May 2004 Rey vs Chavo Guerrero, Great American Bash 2004 --- I can’t stand Chavo but this is his career match. To me this has the feel of one of those big, long juniors matches. Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 26th August 2004 Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 28th Oct 2004 Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero – Smackdown 6th January 2005 Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero – Wrestlemania 21 Rey vs JBL, Smackdown 7th April 2005 Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero – Judgment Day 2005 Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero – Smackdown 23rd June 2005 Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero – Great American Bash 2005 Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero (Ladder Match) – Summerslam 2005 Rey Mysterio vs Eddie Guerrero (Cage Match) – Smackdown 9th September 2005 --- The Eddie/Rey feud. A fantastic series of matches that are all unique and all play into the ongoing story. The New Year match was a kind of friendly challenge thrown out to start it all and is a really good TV match. WM was a fun sprint between the tag champs. Judgment Day comes on the heels of Eddie’s turn and brings the hate, and by the SD match they’ve settled into war with each other. GAB is quite a different match because it goes heavy on the secret/Dominic angle, and Summerslam is a match for custody of a child (I’ve seen it called sloppy and disappointing but I think the emotion carries it, as long as you buy into such a hokey angle). And finally the blow off in the cage. Really a crowning achievement as a feud for all sorts of reasons. Rey vs Shawn Michaels, Raw 14th Nov 2005 --- From the Eddie Guerrrero Memorial Raw. Rey & Dave vs MNM, Smackdown 16th Dec 2005 Rey & Dave vs MNM, Smackdown 30th Dec 2005 Rey vs Mark Henry, Smackdown 20th January 2006 --- Rey runs. Rey flies. Rey bounces. Rey dies. Henry was good before this but this was a total coming out party for him. Fucking outstanding TV match. Rey vs Mark Henry, Smackdown 27th Jan 2006 Royal Rumble Match – Royal Rumble 2006 Rey vs Angle vs Orton – Wrestlemania 22 --- The two above matches are for a career picture as those were his two big career wins up until that point. Rey works the entire Rumble match and is pretty much its MVP, however much you take away from the match as a whole. I find the Mania match quite poor but again, this is just for the result and the moment. Rey vs Randy Orton, Smackdown 7th April 2006 --- This is a great TV main event and is also one of Orton’s best matches. Ignore the booking of Rey’s title reign and just watch this. It has Orton getting great heat and Rey selling accordingly and it all builds tremendously. Rey vs JBL, Judgment Day 2006 Rey vs JBL, 26th May 2006 Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 2nd June 2006 Rey vs Sabu, One Night Stand 2006 Rey vs Finlay, 9th Nov 2007 Rey & Shawn vs Miz & Morrison, Raw 17th Nov 2008 Rey vs Punk, Armageddon 2008 Raw Elimination Chamber, No Way Out 2009 --- Bolded because this is one of those Chamber matches that is made by Rey’s bumping and selling. Rey vs Chris Jericho - Judgment Day 2009 Rey Mysterio vs Edge – Smackdown 5th June 2009 Rey Mysterio vs Chris Jericho (Extreme Rules) - Extreme Rules 2009 Rey Mysterio vs Chris Jericho (Mask vs Title) – The Bash 2009 Rey Mysterio vs Chris Jericho - Smackdown 10th July 2009 --- The Jericho feud is another big one for Rey. They did a great job building match after match, and also incorporated some elements from lucha as well (Jericho using the Atlantida, the focus on the mask, the similarities to the Casas/Mistico matches from the same time period). The Bash match is the highpoint but it’s a good watch as a series. Rey vs Dolph Ziggler, Summerslam 2009 Rey vs John Morrison, Smackdown 4th Sept 2009 Rey & Batista vs JeriShow – Hell in a Cell 2009 Rey Mysterio vs Batista – Smackdown 16th October 2009 Rey Mysterio vs Batista – Smackdown 18th December 2009 Rey Mysterio vs Batista (Steel Cage) – Smackdown 15th January 2010 Rey vs Shawn Michaels, Smackdown 29th Jan 2010 Rey Mysterio vs Undertaker – Royal Rumble 2010 Rey Mysterio vs CM Punk - Smackdown 12th February 2010 Rey Mysterio vs CM Punk – Wrestlemania 26 Rey Mysterio vs CM Punk (Hair Match) - Extreme Rules 2010 Rey Mysterio vs CM Punk (Hair vs SES) - Over the Limit 2010 --- Another long, serious feud. Great Punk promos for this by the way. The SD match is actually the best stand-alone match, just a fantastic TV bout, but it’s another feud worth watching through as the story develops and they get more intense and play off previous matches. Watch for Punk’s freakout after the blood stoppage at OTL. Rey vs Tyson Kidd, Superstars 25th March 2010 Rey vs Jack Swagger - Smackdown 11th June 2010 Rey Mysterio vs Jack Swagger - Money in the Bank 2010 Rey Mysterio vs Jack Swagger (2/3 Falls) – Smackdown 23rd July 2010 Rey Mysterio vs Jack Swagger (Falls Count Anywhere) - Smackdown 30th July 2010 --- The Swagger feud – particularly MITB and 2/3 Falls – is interesting because it is based around the Ankle Lock and Rey selling the leg. Rey selling the leg is theoretically problematic for two reasons. Firstly, from an artistic point of view it cuts out most of Rey’s offense which should make it difficult to work a good match. Secondly, without the benefit of his offense it could strain credibility that Rey can physically compete with larger opponents. But somehow he always makes it work. In these matches he does so with some great selling, not just of the physical pain but also the strategic conundrum he finds himself in. He has to find new ways to try and win, and he does so by relying on his striking, and by using the top turnbuckle for dives instead of running and jumping (the old “can’t jump high so jump from high places” compensation). I think for those using the Matt D School of Analysis these are worth looking at to show Rey’s ability to have a different kind of match and adapt. Rey vs Alberto Del Rio, Smackdown 8th Oct 2010 --- Again, another example of Rey having a different kind of match than you’re used to, as here he comes for revenge against Alberto and they have a surprisingly brawly brawl. Rey vs Alberto Del Rio, Smackdown 7th Jan 2011 (2/3 Falls) SD Elimination Chamber, Elimination Chamber 2011 --- Another Chamber that Rey completely makes with his nutty bumping and selling. He absolutely kills himself in this match, and just like 2009 he and Edge work a great hot finishing stretch. Rey Mysterio vs Cody Rhodes – Wrestlemania 27 Rey vs Cody Rhodes (Falls Count Anywhere) - Extreme Rules 2011 Rey vs CM Punk, Capitol Punishment 2011 Rey vs Alberto vs Punk – Raw 20th June 2011 Rey & Riley vs Swagger & Miz, Raw 27th June 2011 Rey vs Alberto vs Truth – Raw 4th July 2011 Rey Mysterio vs The Miz – Raw 18th July 2011 Rey vs John Cena, Raw 25th July 2011 --- This is one of the best TV matches of the decade, and one of my personal all-time favourites. I didn’t even realise how much I loved the idea of Rey vs Cena until they announced this, and then they went out there and smashed my extremely high expectations. A textbook face vs face title match. Rey vs Alberto vs Bryan vs Kane - Smackdown 27th July 2012 Rey Mysterio vs The Miz - Summerslam 2012 Rey vs Cody vs Miz vs Sin Cara - Night of Champions 2012 Rey, Cara, Gabes, Kidd & Brodus vs Tensai, PTP & Colons - Survivor Series 2012 Rey & Show vs Rhodes Bros vs Rybaxel vs Real Americans - TLC 2013 Rey, Bryan & Sheamus vs The Shield - Smackdown 31st January 2014

There's one Bulldogs vs Harts match that I actually thought was really good. I think it's the one on the WWE Tag Teams DVD, which I think is a Boston Garden match from '85.

I'm 99.8% sure I'll have you beat there. If I have Cena as low as Top 30 something will have gone horribly wrong.

Quick note, the reason why AJ Styles went for a twisting senton after a DDT in their match is because that's AJ's finisher (the Spiral Tap).

I'd love for you to go into some detail about this and provide examples, because I've never really agreed with this argument, or to be honest even seen it. What are the "big flaws" in Bryan's selling? Do they go beyond the simple fact that he now makes big hot tags/babyface comebacks? Because I can't think of a single match in the last 18 months or whatever where I've thought "fuck Bryan just stopped selling" or "hmm Bryan just blew off that X work". Can't think of a single example of what is apparently a recurring problem. So I'm interested to hear what you're seeing exactly and where you're seeing it.

Masters is another one of those guys who it's worth looking at again if you like him and worth checking out if you don't know him, even if he won't make many ballots (if at all) at the end of the day. I feel like a HUGE positive side-effect of this project is the sheer amount of good workers who's names are being mentioned and spruiked to a receptive audience. The essential Masters is basically his WWE C Show run from his second stint in the company (2009-11). I imagine he's still doing good work on the indies but someone more familiar will have to fill that in. But in 2010-11 the guy was one of the best babyface workers around, with a fantastic dedication to selling that I think a lot of people here will appreciate. From WWE the stuff to look at would be from Superstars: vs Dolph Ziggler - May 2010 vs Drew Mac - 28th August 2010 vs Tyler Reks - a series of matches that I think took place in early 2011 vs Drew Mac - 12th May 2011 vs Jack Swagger - 4th August 2011 I also want to mention his match with Drew Mac on Smackdown on 11th Feb 2011, which goes about 1:50 including Drew's mid-match promo, and is my favourite sub-2 minute match of all time.

I'm with you 100% on that. Those matches blew me away in a way that 90s AJPW never has. They're big pluses in the candidacy for Hansen and Colon and the only complaint I have is the ending of the cage match being anti-climactic. I fucking LOVE the end of the cage match. I guess in hindsight looking at it as the climax to a long hate-filled feud, I can see how you'd feel that way. But I love it. That big brawl breaks out on the floor and Colon walks out of the cage to join in and basically wins accidentally? I laughed my ass off. It's just awesome in such a wacky, pro wrestling kind of way.

There's also the Steiner match from Slammiversary 2006, which you'd need to watch the angles and promos for to get the full picture. And outside of the timeframe, Joe and AJ had a really good PPV match in 2007 that nobody ever talks about. It was when AJ was a heel.

I think the most obvious example would be Angle vs Jeff Hatdy at TNA Victory Road 2010.

Sorry about the vague dates, but the main ones are: vs Chris Sabin 7/05 PPV (I forget what the TNA PPVs are called) vs AJ Styles 8/05 PPV vs AJ Styles 12/05 PPV vs Chris Daniels 1/06 Final Resolution vs AJ vs Daniels 2/06 Against All Odds vs Chris Daniels 12/4/06 Impact vs

It already has I'm sure.

Yeah I wouldn't be against extending the current deadline by 6 months or so, or even until the end of the year. But Loss threw out five years as an idea, and I feel is really talking about a nebulous, "until everyone has seen everything" future date, and I don't agree with that. I don't see why you wouldn't turn in a ballot Loss. You probably do more wrestling viewing as it is than most of the prospective voter base. You're as well informed as anyone to vote. Like I said, it is impossible to watch all the wrestling ever. You will never find anyone with a perfect knowledge base. If you vote and then later feel like you didn't or couldn't give certain people or areas a fair shake, then fix it when we do the next poll next decade. Like I said this isn't going to be a definitive list, just like the 2006 version wasn't. All it will ultimately show is what we all thought about wrestling in 2016. I'm pretty sure none of us would hand in an exact same ballot in 2017.

Yeah, if there's no deadline in sight people will lose interest. I also feel like wanting to give everyone time to watch everything is an admirable idea, but not really practical. No matter how much time we have, we'll never get to watch everything. The list won't be perfect. No list ever would be. What it will be, just like the 2006 list and the next list after this one, is a snapshot of how we viewed these wrestlers, both individually for your own ballot, and collectively for the final result. We need to stop somewhere and write this stuff down in pen.

Out of interest Parv, how much time are you honestly willing to invest in due diligence on the 2000s? Because I'm pretty sure we as a collective can make you a short remedial viewing list to get you going. I could put together 10-20 matches from WWE that give a good overview of the top workers at their best. The relevant people could do the same for puro, lucha and the dreaded indy scene. Then if a particular wrestler/match/style jumps out at you, you can look into it. If not, you at least took a bite just to make sure you didn't like it.

I think the point in considering them is that we're submitting ballots of 100. Looking solely at genuine GOAT contenders only is limiting when you have another 90 spots to fill out. You may feel as though you have enough names in mind to do that without exploring more marginal or middling candidates. But other people might not. I know I certainly don't. And if my ballot is going to have any merit beyond the top names, I need to properly vet everyone who has a shot of going on. Everyone will have to prioritize their research, and I don't blame you for not wanting to spend time on a time period that you're predisposed to dislike and to not rate that highly from. But you seem to be asking why we should look at anyone who is probably only a candidate for the bottom half of one's ballot. And the answer is that we have to fill out the bottom half of our ballots.

What about even face/heel versatility? Is there a point at which people penalize the Reys and Steamboats of the world for never having a (good) heel run?

Good point, will definitely do one for him as part of my case.

Yeah that's a great tool. It made me feel like doing one for Cena, Sheamus and others, which I'm pretty sure I will do as soon as I get back from holiday.