Jimmy Redman

I think there is a particular type of female wrestler that appeals to a female audience. Think Lita, think AJ Lee, think Bayley. Someone presented as an earthy, girl-next-door, tomboy type, rather than a sex symbol. A girl who is "one of us". There are enough stories of them selling shirts to girls and being their heroes that you can see the trend. There is the potential there for that type of character to monetise the female viewers that they have. But I don't believe there is a significant market of female viewers that don't watch wrestling but would be drawn to wrestling if they just presented the women better. Maybe a small one, made up of the kind of women who will watch sports, watch UFC and are impressed and empowered by Ronda's success. But I don't see the potential as large enough to really be worth it. The key in making women draws in WWE would be to make them draws to the wrestling audience - i.e. the predominantly male wrestling audience. WWE has successfully tapped into a female viewing audience that has no interest in wresting itself by giving them Total Divas. They don't want to watch wrestling. They want to watch catty reality TV, and this one happens to be about female wrestlers.

Trish Stratus https://www.talkwhateveronline.com/threads/your-favourite-un-hyped-matches-of-all-time.57528/page-2#post-1191446 https://www.talkwhateveronline.com/threads/two-wrestling-club.55926/page-6#post-1154180 https://www.talkwhateveronline.com/threads/the-review-zone.50380/#post-1041539

Depends how you mean. At the moment Miz is kind of shitty and I'd take Charlotte over him even though I don't think she's all that good yet. Miz at his best is better than Charlotte has been thus far, but that's not really a knock on Charlotte since she's so new still, and Miz peaked in 2010. As for the wider question, Divas I think are worse than Miz as of this moment: Rosa Mendez, Summer Rae, Tamina. Including NXT girls: Dana Brooke, Alexa Bliss, Carmella, Eva Marie. All the other girls I would take over The Miz.

I’ve waited until now to throw my two bob in, it’s been fascinating to read this thread, and really to read everyone’s reactions since Sasha-Becky. The women in WWE hardly ever get this level of interest or scrutiny from serious boards such as this one. Seeing people other than me giving Divas such effusive praise is kind of surreal as far as message board experiences go. So excuse me if I start to ramble and this seems to not be about anything in particular. I just have a lot to say on the subject. I think there are two broad issues at play, and they aren’t necessarily related even though they seem to be, and even though for a lot of people they should be. One question seems to be “Are the women good workers and could they deliver high quality matches with more time and opportunities to do so?” And the other can be summed up in Grimmas’ original question, “Why can’t the women headline WWE PPVs again?” For those who mentioned the women main eventing TV, I should point out, it has already happened. In 2000 Lita vs Steph main evented Raw with Hunter, Rock and the Hardyz at ringside. And more to the point, in 2004 Lita vs Trish for the title main evented Raw with no male involvement whatsoever. In 2011 AJ Lee was all over Raw during the Punk/Bryan/Kane angle and then her term as GM, and probably could have had a main event match in that time if she’d had a female rival. The girls can definitely main event Raw if they are over enough and presented as a big deal. As far as PPV goes, they’ve never really been in a position to draw on PPV so it’s impossible to say. I will venture to guess that Trish’s retirement match at Unforgiven 2006 was a not insignificant factor in that show doing a good number, but with HIAC and TLC matches on that card as well it’s hard to stretch much further than that. Trish vs Mickie at WM22 was a huge deal at the time, but not even I am insane enough to try to attribute a Wrestlemania number to the Divas match when even the World Title match was about the fourth match down. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any other women’s match that was put in a featured, drawing position for a PPV. Steph vs Brie maybe? There’s no fundamental reason why a women’s match couldn’t sell PPVs just the same as men’s matches do. As long as you have wrestlers who are over and a match that people want to see. To me it’s the same as asking “why couldn’t a tag team match sell PPVs?” Or cruiserweights, or trios, or minis, or anything else that isn’t a heavyweight match between males. Of course it could, if it was put into a position to and had something people wanted to see. I mean it’s not like trios wrestling has historically been a big deal in WWE, but they get a hot act like The Shield and hey presto, suddenly trios matches are the biggest thing on TV. And you can point to the same thing when they’ve had hot female acts like Trish, Lita, AJ, Steph, etc. When you start talking about PPV main events, I feel like it unnecessarily blurs the issue because again, it’s like asking why a tag team match or a juniors match can’t headline a WWE PPV. They could in theory, of course, and have, but ideally you want your heavyweight title match to headline PPVs the vast majority of the time. That’s what it’s there for. It may not be the most equal of utopias, but there is a hierarchy in WWE and the world title match goes on top (generally speaking, of course, before you start listing every time that it doesn’t). I personally would sing from the heavens and kiss every baby on earth if I saw women main event a WWE PPV. That sounds like all my dreams coming true. But I don’t think it will ever happen. I don’t think that hoping that it will is realistic. And I don’t think the amount of effort that would go into retraining the entire audience to accept a women’s match as a PPV headliner in WWE would really be worth it for WWE in the end. That’s really the key. You (Grimmas) asked at one point if it wasn’t worth trying. Honestly, I think the answer to that is no. It wouldn’t be worth the long-term upheaval, re-conditioning, adverse reactions and everything else to try it, just on the off chance of turning PPVs headlined by women into a viable option. They can barely get the historically successful formula of heavyweight male matches to draw PPVs anymore. Now that is NOT to say that they shouldn’t bother with the women’s division. Of course they should! They should present the women on WWE exactly the way they present them on NXT, as a real division. They should protect them with booking, they should have clear direction and storylines. They should have real characters, be faces and heels, and cut promos. They should have feuds that are settled in the ring, and get enough time to work those matches. They should be presented as a real division, not as a joke, not as the piss break. If they did that, and ran with girls who got hot, I’m sure they would be able to main event TVs, contribute to selling PPVs, sell loads of merch, and all the rest of it. Like I said, they do that and all my dreams come true. Now onto the other thing: the work. When people are talking about Charlotte being green, or Sasha being overrated, or the girls having more time to plan matches and whatever else, to me it’s all missing the point. I need hardly point out that drawing often has very little to do with ring work. The quality of the girls’ matches really has nothing to do with how they fare, or could fare, as draws. I mean how many of you have taken Lita to task over her ring work? But she was one of the biggest female draws they ever had. If Charlotte catches on it’s not going to be when she learns to work the arm better, it will be because she catches on with her personality. Same with anyone else, male or female. So I mean arguing about things like who on the main roster could work a match like Sasha/Becky, for example, doesn’t really matter to the question of whether they can become draws. It’s all about presentation. Someone in this thread said something like “if you took random girls’ Main Event match X and put it on NXT, people would be praising it.” I am always loathe to use the “if you put this match move-for-move here/with the sound off/in front of a different crowd/in Japan/etc…” argument because it’s impossible to remove a match from it’s surroundings. Everything has a context. But in this particular instance there’s a kernel of truth there I think. NXT women’s matches are well received not only because they work well physically, but also because they are treated seriously, with characters who are over, in front of a crowd who appreciates them. If you strip all of those things away, most NXT women’s matches don’t look all that dissimilar physically to most long Divas matches on Main Event and Superstars. The work has always been there with the Divas, you just have to look a LOT harder to find it. Now this is the part where I’m wary of passing my opinion off as something other than one person’s opinion about match quality. So I guess I just want to stress that you don’t have to agree with how I rate the Divas work, nor am I trying to say that all of these examples are equally good, or as equally good as the NXT match du jour. What I will say is that I would bet money that I have paid more attention to WWE Divas matches in the last decade than anyone else in this conversation. Paid more attention, showed more interest, enjoyed their work more and analysed their work in many, many more words. So take that kind of dedicated fandom for whatever it’s worth. But again, I feel like the work is there. On NXT, Bayley at the moment is just the perfect loveable underdog babyface. Before her, Emma was the goofy loveable underdog babyface. But before either of them, there was Cherry. You might remember her as the rollerskating valet of Deuce and Domino. But after she split from them in 2008 she started working matches and she was EXACTLY that kind of loveable, underdog babyface. I was beside myself gushing over her potential as a pure girly babyface, and then after like a month she was released by the company for reasons past my understanding. When I watch Bayley, or when I watched Emma version 1, it always crosses my mind that I wish Cherry had this kind of opportunity to run with her character back in 2008. That’s just one example. Maybe you prefer the kind of heel work that a Sasha type provides. Take a look at Eve Torres in her glasses-wearing, “Assistant to Raw GM John Laurinaitis” phase, she transitioned to a working, Divas Champ role after that and was a great heel. Or Layla as part of Laycool, being a great bumping, stooging, comedic heel; running away from people, curling up into a ball, throwing ridiculous “hiyah” kicks. Or Beth and Nattie from 2011 as a monster heel team running over everyone. Or Victoria during her last year or so in the company, another girl who would just bitch and stooge all over the place. Ditto Alicia Fox when she’s really working heel. Or Melina the psycho, aggressive heel, shrieking and trying to pull people’s hair out from the roots. And most of all, watch Trish when she was walking around in 2004 as the best heel in the company. Divas matches can look soft or overly-dance-like, but these girls can also hit hard. Beth Phoenix used to do the coolest strength spots, lifting multiple people and bending Melina into a pretzel. Melina herself was great at using her flexibility to lock on wacky submissions. When Michelle McCool turned heel she immediately started kneeing the absolute fuck out of people and it was glorious. Naomi and Nikki Bella should be renamed the Vicious Forearm Strike Club, and go around forearming bitches in the face forever. Alicia is very athletic, hits a sweet Northern Lights and has a sweet superkick. Even someone like Trish, who you don’t really think of as physical, she could throw some strikes. The main thing about Divas matches is time, and a lack thereof. Five minutes is fine for a throwaway match on TV, but even the matches that are supposed to mean something only get that much time. PPV matches rarely reach ten minutes. Matches that need to tell a story never get enough time to adequately tell that story. That said, I am always mightily impressed with just how much the girls can get out of four or five minutes of ring time. In fact I think in turn it has made me appreciate men’s matches that run about that amount of time, if they can do something interesting with it. I am one of only three people in the world who know that Natalya and Alicia Fox have been feuding since 2011. The other two are Natalya and Alicia Fox. They work every match they have with each other this way, like they are genuine rivals, like it is the next match in a wider series of matches that they have fought and learned from. Most of these matches are on Superstars and Main Event with absolutely NO fanfare, pushed storyline or help from the office. They have seemingly just decided to feud. If the guys show that much attention to detail and long-term work over a series of matches on a C Show people would fall over themselves praising them. In fact they did, if you look at the reputations Chris Masters, Drew Mac and others cultivated on Superstars. Nattie and Alicia do the same kind of work, but nobody could possibly pay attention. If you want something “bigger”, check out the Beth vs Kelly series from 2011. Summerslam was their most famous match, but it’s a whole series that includes Night of Champions and HIAC, and they weave a great story through them. Kelly Kelly is basically John Cena in these matches, the champion who is ostensibly a babyface but rejected by crowds who prefer her heel challenger as more of a “real” wrestler. And she works exactly like Cena does in those situations, all “time to go to work” and bravely heading into hostile territory and soldiering on. I’m rambling away now, but my overarching point in listing all of these examples, is again not necessarily to say that these matches or these Divas are better than or equal to the current NXT girls and matches. My point is that I think almost every single one of these examples would have come across better taking place in current-day NXT with all of the booking protection, time and crowd support that comes with it. The key difference between NXT girls and WWE girls is not levels of talent. It is opportunity, it is presentation. When someone like Paige looks like a million bucks in NXT and then woeful in WWE, she doesn’t suddenly become 100 times shittier overnight. She goes from an environment where everything is designed to showcase her to her advantage, to an environment where she is an afterthought at best, and horribly portrayed and sabotaged at worst. Who here doesn’t think that if Paige were shipped back to NXT she’d start working better matches and looking like the Paige of old? Isn’t that exactly what has happened with Emma? And yet when this happens the instinct from so many people is to criticise the wrestler, like being a main roster Diva has exposed Paige for the terrible wrestler that she is, instead of her being chewed up and spat out by being a main roster Diva. If, say, Sami Zayn gets called up and completely botched as a character and given no time for matches, are people going to talk about how Sami was always a shitty wrestler and now we all see it because he can’t get over in WWE? Or maybe they will lament that Sami is not put into a position to showcase the talent that we already know he has. That’s how I feel about a lot of the Divas. I wish I could wrap up every single Diva in WWE and ship them en masse to NXT, to a place where they can try being real wrestlers, where they get time to work matches, where they get real characters, promo time, motivations, storylines, progression, and a crowd that cares about them. THEN you will see some motherfucking work, just like you already do with the girls who have been lucky enough to come up through present-day NXT. The problem is not the girls, it has never been the girls. It is the presentation. NXT pretty definitively proves that.

Young Bucks vs Cutler Bros vs London/Generico Guerrilla Warfare in PWG is my favourite brainless indy spotfest. It's a riot.

It's funny that 3-4 people have come straight into this thread to basically say "I know it's crazy but I love Taue", and I am adding myself to the pile. I wonder how many people it takes to say that before saying it is no longer crazy? Anyway I am nowhere near ready to answer this question with any authority (I'm still in 1991), but I would like to leap onto the Taue bandwagon too. I love the guy. Physically he's like a less freakish looking Giant Baba for the 90s, and I also love me some Baba. Taue is great as a dick just dishing out punishment to Kawada or whoever. For an awkward lanky fuck he also has some pretty neat moves up his sleeve, and is pretty good at taking a beating. Lots of love for Taue so far.

I've decided that I need to get serious about checking out names with which I am unfamiliar. So I've started with the first thread up that that applies to. That's not to say that I had never seen a Larry Z match before, for example, but a concentrated viewing helps me to form a picture of whether I will rank them, should consider them, or can jettison them. What I really like about Larry is how great he is at playing his character. As a heel there's nothing particularly cartoonish or evil about him. He's just an asshole. A pure-bred, unadulterated, obnoxious asshole. The kind you can come across every day in life. The kind of asshole that cuts you off on the road, the kind that is rude to everyone and willing to kick off with anyone. The kind of twat that nobody likes, that everyone wishes would just get the shit kicked out of him. In wrestling terms this means a guy who will take every shortcut available, use every underhanded method, take the easy way out every time...and never apologise or even look ashamed when he does. He does what he wants because fuck you. He's an asshole. To further this point, he's great at building frustration, at cultivating that feeling in an audience, the feeling of just wanting this guy to get the shitkicking he so richly deserves. The King of the Mountain stuff he does is really effective for that (as it is for Bock and anyone else who uses the tactic to great effect). The way he runs out and around the ring, using the space for distance when things get the slightest bit tough...I love it. His character is what makes the turn on Bock so great. I may be reading way into footage that I haven't seen, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me like there wasn't really a build up to it. Larry just kind of snapped in the heat of the moment. And it fit perfectly, because it wasn't a turn for shock value or slowly built to logically or whatever. It was a brain explosion. The minute that Bock tried to hold back Larry, tried to stop him from doing whatever the fuck he wanted, Larry snapped and beat the shit out of him, because fuck you! He's an asshole. Tag team partner or not, nobody gets in his way. I really like the Regal TV match as well, I may need some more recs from that early 90s time period. But Larry is definitely a guy that I'm open to.

Two high end matches with Joe. And yes. Also a good PPV match with Sean Waltman, he was great in the Ultimate X in January, and generally doing good work on TV. AJ was fucking aces in 2005.

The thing is though, when you said in your original post: You make it sound as though you chose Jericho based on the "facts" that he had more opportunities and "mattered" more, and therefore must necessarily be better. Maybe it's just crossed wires, but that's how you came across.

I don't mind the logic behind it per se. I just think it's unimaginative and not fun to watch.

IDK, it might seem believable that a lug headed stiff (be it their actual selves or gimmick) would be that lazy and unimaginative when it comes to "dishing out more punishment". I suppose you didn't get a kick out of Brock Lesnar's Suplex City huh? It might be believable for a lug headed stiff, fair point. But firstly, that still doesn't mean it;s any good to watch, and secondly, I'm not thinking of lug headed stiffs. I just watched Liger vs Sano 1/90, for example, and Sano spends like ten minutes picking Liger up just to put him back down. I feel this way all the time watching juniors matches. I loved Suplex City. That was the opposite of what I'm talking about, really. Brock's suplexes are massive bombs, and they are usually given time to breathe as the receiver sells the shit out of it and Brock laughs maniacally. And even when he does rattle them off fairly quickly, it's still Brock on a murderous rampage, and not a guy mechanically performing spots in a rote and robotic fashion. There's a major difference between what I'm talking about and something like Brock's suplexes.

I'm not sure I could in good conscience recommend watching the Divas NXT season. The original NXT format is something that still haunts my dreams. But yeah, whenever they had them talking before or after a challenge or what not Naomi always came across as genuine and I was really impressed. On another note, her match vs AJ on NXT was a lot of fun as well. But yeah I'm with you. I like it when lines get flubbed or someone says the wrong thing when it comes off like they're speaking from the heart. WWE needs more of that authenticity.

It peeves me when a match seems to go "slam a guy - pick him up by the head - suplex him - pick him up - piledrive him - pick him up - etc." Like the inherent laziness and waste of energy in dropping a guy just to pick him up again. There are a million ways to transition better than that, and it comes off like a guy just running through a list of moves he wrote down earlier. I notice it more during 90s juniors matches than any other time, and it just takes me way out of a match.

I'm glad it's not just me. Going all the way back to the female NXT in 2010 I was always impressed with Naomi's authenticity on the mic. Now that's not to say that she was or is necessarily a particularly polished promo. In fact I don't think she is BUT that is exactly why she works. She doesn't come off as a performer delivering lines or acting, she comes off like a real person trying to cut a wrestling promo. In 2010 she was portraying herself as this natural athlete who was sick of the dog and pony show and NXT bullshit and just wanted to wrestle. So when she had to cut a promo, she said exactly that and came off like exactly that person. She was awkward and didn't seem like she wanted to talk on the mic much, which is what gave her that authenticity. She was an awkward promo, but a believable one, because you knew that she actually meant what she was saying. Fast forward to now, and now that she's the jaded, overlooked, newly-heel Naomi, she's right there cutting promos about being jaded and overlooked, and she comes off as sincere in what she's saying. Again, not necessarily a great promo in a "gifted public speaker" sense, but she doesn't need to be, because that's not who she is. She's this athlete who is forced to talk smack on TV for a living, so she's getting it done. Just that authenticity about her is something I've always liked. Of course a big part of that would be that she does, in fact, believe these things in real life. But that doesn't always translate to being able to sell it on TV. I'm sure Brie really does love Bryan in real life, for example, but she sure as shit still gives the most wooden ass, unbelievable promos even when talking about her real husband's health issues.

Matt vs Gregory Helms - No Mercy 2006 Matt vs Mr Kennedy - Smackdown 4th May 2007 Matt vs Finlay - Smackdown 22nd June 2007 Matt vs MVP - Smackdown 6th July 2007 Matt vs MVP - GAB 2007 Matt vs Shelton Benjamin - GAB 2008 Matt vs Finlay vs Miz vs Morrison - ECW 22nd July 2008 Matt vs Mark Henry - ECW 19th August 2008 Matt vs Evan Bourne - Cyber Sunday 2008 Matt vs Finlay - ECW 11th Nov 2008 Matt vs Shelton Benjamin - Smackdown 14th Nov 2008 Matt vs Edge - Smackdown 19th Dec 2008 Matt vs Mark Henry - ECW 6th Jan 2009 Matt vs Jack Swagger - Royal Rumble 2009 Matt vs Drew Mac - Smackdown 25th June 2010 Most of this is off the top of my head and stuff I haven't revisited since it happened. The ones in bold are the very best matches, but it's all worth watching and he was really so very consistent from that entire period between the MVP and Swagger feuds, you could basically watch any TV match of his from 2007-08.

You know what, I was just thinking about something like Owens vs Joe for the next Takeover show...and it made me sad. Sad. Because right now it feels like they shouldn't wait another moment to have a women's match headline a Takeover special. Sasha vs Lynch II or Sasha vs Bayley would do it. But on the other hand, if they really kept Owens/Joe until then, nothing is going to follow that. If Sami comes back for a final blow off with Owens, nothing is going to follow that. So hmm. With Joe it depends what kind of deal he's on and what their plans are for him. If he's just jumping in for a while as a much bigger Kendrick or Rhyno, then they may just use him for the next couple tapings and complete his title shot arc on TV. But it seems impossible that they'd not want to have him full-time after they see the reactions he gets and how fast his shirt is going to fly off the shelves. It's probably a sign of a great show that I'm already trying to book the next one three months in advance.

Better tag team wrestler seems kind of obvious too.

I have a full review of the show up on my blog. Suffice it to say, Sasha vs Becky. Holy shit.

Yeah, of all the things to say about him that seems the most inaccurate on the surface, in fact it seems if anything the opposite would be true. He's much more of a "TV wrestler" because he is so well practiced in hitting all the camera angles and close ups and overt mannerisms that come with working modern day WWE TV.

I could have written the exact same post. I have no idea what my list is going to look like, but I'm sure it will be preposterous to look at.

When guys look like they're breaking up their own pins. It usually happens during a rollup or an Eddie/Dean-esqe sequence of pinning combinations, when they're so into the rhythm of their routine that they pop up for the next spot before they finish the current one. I don't mind the sequence itself, I just hate it when they make it look like a dance instead of looking like they're trying to actually pin the guy.

I'm not saying it's irrelevant per se, but in this specific case I'm not sure why it matters. Matt isn't some jobber who worked five minute squashes his whole career and never got a chance to show his skills. He was a multi time title holder in WWE and had featured roles on TV for over a decade, having countless long matches, storylines, promo time, etc., in both a tag and singles setting. I don't think a lack of opportunity really prevents us from getting a good look at Matt Hardy the worker. Nor do I think he was that much less featured than Jericho on any metric other than World Title runs, and I guess promo time.

What does their card position or how much they "matter" have to do with who is better?

The last part is the key I think. If you change the wrestling analogy from "Shawn and Bret" to "Austin and Rock" it makes more sense. Federer and Rafa were two GOATs who came along around the same time, we were watching history and we got to watch classic Slam final after classic Slam final (narratively, if not in reality). Anyone who follows them is going to be a letdown, in the same way that people resent Cena for not being the Attitude Era.

Honestly, whenever I watch Orton from 2003-04 as the IC Champ level Legend Killer, I come away thinking that somehow, after God knows how many years working with every warm body in the company, being in countless high profile feuds and matches, being given time and opportunities year after year...as a whole package, it's entirely possible that Orton peaked in 2004, after less than two years on TV, and has never been as good in the 10+ years since. He's been good for periods, and had great matches, but as a total package, ring work plus character work, promos, charisma, emoting, etc...that really was his best work. Like you watch him back then. He would actually emote. He would actually speak like a normal human being. He actually had a much more relatable charisma as the cocky, jock douchebag of Evolution. I watched Survivor Series 2003. There are two moments on that show that stand out to me regarding this point. Firstly, there's a backstage segment with Evolution, and Orton walks in having just done the bit where he RKOs Mark Cuban in the ring. He's all cocky bragging about it and then one of the girls in the room tweaks his nipple and he momentarily gets distracted and smirks at this girl like he's already counting the amount of different ways he's going to fuck her. Later, he's walking out with Team Bischoff, and all the way down the ramp he's determinedly trying to convince Steiner that he was not looking at Stacy Keibler, and would never look at Stacy Keibler. They get to the bottom of the ramp, Orton lets Scotty pass and the very first nanosecond he can he sneaks in a perve at Stacy. He was just the quintessential douchebag, a good looking guy who fucking KNOWS how good looking he is, who expects women to suck his cock on sight, who men just want to punch square in the face, who will promise not to steal your girl and then immediately try to steal your girl. And probably succeed, because that handsome motherfucker makes women melt in a way that makes guys go "Why??" And the same idea extended to wrestling. He's a cocky little shit and you just want someone to beat the fuck out of him, but they can't, because he's just good enough to avoid it. He may stooge and feed and sell, and he may cheat and take the easy way out, but he's still good, and he still wins. He hits that RKO and you just think "Fuck. Not again." I've gone off on a tangent here, and on things that have little to do with work in the ring, but my point in saying all this is that there was a point in time in which Orton wasn't soulless, when he had a real character and emoted like a human.