Jimmy Redman

For me personally, however much footage there is of the Destroyer, that is exactly how much footage I need to consider him. I love Destroyer. I think if there's enough footage for you to come to a conclusion about how great a wrestler they were or are, it's enough. Whether a lack of footage prevents someone from climbing past a certain level is another story, but I think if you think that much of them even from a small sample, there's no reason why you shouldn't put them on your list. Reality is we have more footage of some people than others. That's life. You have to judge on what there is.

Off the top of my head... Rey vs Chavo, Smackdown 25th July 2002 (debut) Rey vs Kurt Angle, Summerslam 2002 Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 12th Sept 2002 Rey vs Chris Benoit, Smackdown 3rd Oct 2002 Rey & Edge vs Angle & Benoit, No Mercy 2002 Rey & Edge vs Angle & Benoit (2/3 Falls), Smackdown 7th Nov 2002 Rey vs Eddie Guerrero, Smackdown 14th Nov 2002 Rey & Edge vs Angle & Benoit vs Los Guerreros, Survivor Series 2002 Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 23rd Jan 2003 Rey vs Matt Hardy, Smackdown 5th June 2003 Rey & Kidman vs WGTT, Vengeance 2003 Rey vs Tajiri, Smackdown 4th Sept 2003 Rey vs Tajiri, No Mercy 2003 Rey vs Brock Lesnar, Smackdown 11th December 2003 Rey vs Tajiri, Smackdown 1st Jan 2004 Rey vs Eddie Guerrero, Smackdown 18th March 2004 Rey vs Jamie Noble, Velocity 1st May 2004 Rey vs Chavo Guerrero, Great American Bash 2004 Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 26th August 2004 Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 28th Oct 2004 The entire Rey vs Eddie 2005 feud: SD 6th Jan, WM21, Judgment Day, SD 23rd June, GAB, Summerslam (Custody Ladder Match), SD 9th Sept (Cage) Rey vs JBL, Smackdown 7th April 2005 Rey vs Shawn Michaels, Raw 14th Nov 2005 Rey & Dave vs MNM, Smackdown 16th Dec 2005 Rey & Dave vs MNM, Smackdown 30th Dec 2005 Rey vs Mark Henry, Smackdown 20th Jan 2006 Rey vs Mark Henry, Smackdown 27th Jan 2006 Rey vs Randy Orton, Smackdown 7th April 2006 Rey vs JBL, Judgment Day 2006 Rey vs JBL, 26th May 2006 Rey vs Kurt Angle, Smackdown 2nd June 2006 Rey vs Sabu, One Night Stand 2006 Rey vs Finlay, 9th Nov 2007 Rey & Shawn vs Miz & Morrison, Raw 17th Nov 2008 Rey vs Punk, Armageddon 2008 Raw Elimination Chamber, No Way Out 2009 Rey vs Chris Jericho feud: Judgment Day, Extreme Rules, The Bash (Mask vs Title), SD 10th July 2009 Rey vs Dolph Ziggler, Summerslam 2009 Rey vs John Morrison, Smackdown 4th Sept 2009 Rey vs Shawn Michaels, Smackdown 29th Jan 2010 Rey vs CM Punk feud: SD 12th Feb, WM26, Extreme Rules, Over the Limit Rey vs Tyson Kidd, Superstars 25th March 2010 Rey vs Jack Swagger feud: SD 11th June, Money in the Bank, SD 23rd July (2/3 Falls), SD 30th July (Falls Count Anywhere) Rey vs Alberto Del Rio, Smackdown 8th Oct 2010 Rey vs Alberto Del Rio, Smackdown 7th Jan 2011 (2/3 Falls) SD Elimination Chamber, Elimination Chamber 2011 Rey vs Cody Rhodes, Extreme Rules 2011 (Falls Count Anywhere) Rey vs CM Punk, Capitol Punishment 2011 Rey & Riley vs Swagger & Miz, Raw 27th June 2011 Rey vs John Cena, Raw 25th July 2011 OK this turned out longer than I expected. I can narrow it down if this is too many. I love Rey and Angle as a match-up so I've included all the ones I could think of. I'm not wild about most of the Chavo or Finlay matches, but I'm sure others do and could suggest more of those. I could also have missed something from his cruiserweight run (03-04) as I haven't looked at that period since it happened. I feel like there should be more matches in the vein of Rey vs giants and other different styles, but nothing specific is coming to mind.

Now that I have a spare few months I really want to finish this. NXT Season 1, Week 10 1st June 2010 from Dallas, TX "Wild and Young", opening video, fireworks, etc. Skip Sheffield & William Regal vs David Otunga & R-Truth Skip once again is overflowing with enthusiasm and demands to start. Truth and Otunga seem to be relatively civil as Truth calmly gives him the floor. Otunga then begins the match by challenging Skip to a posedown. Skip accepts and they go back and forth with the goofy stuff before Otunga hits a cheapshot and the match begins. For a brief period during the match Regal takes the opportunity to stretch Otunga in a "teach him a lesson" way, before he is overcome by Otunga's raw power. Eventually Otunga draws Skip away on the floor, we're left with the two WWE Superstars and Truth pins Regal with Paydirt. > Truth pins Regal David Otunga 2-2 : Skip Sheffield 1-3 After the match, Truth is leaving the ring when Otunga pounces on the fallen Regal with clubbing blows, then picks him up and drills him with his standing spinebuster. (I figured out what Otunga's finish was.) Truth is shocked, while Otunga stands proudly over Regal like he made some kind of statement. An interview segment for Heath Slater airs, as the camera crew followed Slater and Christian during their gym session earlier today. In between workout footage Slater talks more about his 'One Man Band Baybay' personality, while Christian assesses his progress thus far (in short: good, could be better) and states that his goal is to get Slater to the final four. Wade Barrett and Chris Jericho approach the cameraman backstage and order him to film them. They say that they have a message for all the other Rookies. Jericho brags about Barrett being undefeated and how it's obvious that he'll be #1 again next week in the second Rookie Ranking. They joke that it's almost not worth bothering to compete tonight, but they've come up with a special challenge to make things interesting. "Now we don't know what the idiots in charge of NXT have planned for the rest of this show, and frankly, we don't care," Barrett says, "Here's what's going to happen. Chris Jericho and I are going to go down to that ring, and any Rookie and their Pro who is brave enough - or stupid enough - to challenge us can step up to the plate and try to earn a precious win before next week." Back from the break, Scott Stanford at ringside informs us that the challenge issued by Barrett & Jericho has been approved and will now be the main event for the show. The backstage area is abuzz as all the Rookies, especially those with losing records, are excited about this unexpected opportunity to grab another win point. Darren Young sets off at once to find the SES and the camera follows him. He finds them holed up in a private room somewhere. "Hey guys, where's Punk at?" he hopefully asks, to complete disinterest from the SES. "There's an open challenge, I have a chance to get another point, I need to find Punk, we can have a match.." Young persists until Gallows interrupts. "Look, Punk isn't here. And even if he was, he wouldn't help you. You're a disgrace to Straight Edge. We've been left here in his place, and make no mistake, we are not here to help you. We're here to fulfill Punk's contractual obligations until you're eliminated. And the sooner that happens, the better. Now leave us alone, 'Party Boy'" Gallows practically spits the nickname out. "You're not one of us." As we follow a dejected Young back out into the corridor, through an open door the camera picks up Skip Sheffield ranting and raving to "Mr. Regal" about answering the challenge before the camera pans around to reveal that he is actually in the Trainer's Room, and we see Regal, ice packs on his neck and bandages around his ribs from the previous match, his disbelieving stare evident through grimaces of pain. Skip's excited ramble eventually (eventually...) falters as he slowly realises that Regal has been mauled and they have zero chance of accepting. Elsewhere, we see Daniel Bryan walking determinedly towards a locker room - The Miz's locker room. The Miz answers his knock but before Bryan even gets a word out he is cut off "Don't - even - THINK - about asking me to accept Barrett's challenge! I have HAD IT WITH YOU! You embarrassed me last week, your ineptitude caused me to get pinned by a ROOKIE! In front of my friends, my family! You humiliated me! So no, I'm not going to help you tonight. You're done! You have no wins, no points, no future! You'll be eliminated next week and I will finally be rid of this horrible nightmare of a show! Now get out of my sight!" The door slams in Bryan's face and he looks immensely frustrated. Back in the arena Wade Barrett and Chris Jericho saunter down to the ring. They stand there waiting for a team to accept their challenge, making "come on!" gestures and laughing when it seems nobody will step up. Finally, Matt Hardy's music hits and he and Gabriel make their way down. Wade Barrett & Chris Jericho vs Justin Gabriel & Matt Hardy The smiles of the heels are quickly extinguished as Gabes and Matt once again use their double team moves to take control as the match begins. Gabriel in particular seems emboldened by his victory over Miz and flies all around the shop before he is eventually stopped after a huge spill off the top to the floor. The heels take over for a while and both Gabes and Matt have a turn as the face in peril. The match goes so long that for the first time on the show we are forced to take a commercial break mid-match. Gabriel eventually gets the second hot tag and runs wild all over again. There is an extended finishing sequence ending in Matt tagging back in, Gabriel crashing and burning on an attempted dive on Barrett, and Matt going for the Twist of Fate but being countered into the Walls of Jericho. > Jericho pins Matt Wade Barrett 4-0 : Justin Gabriel 3-2 Next week on NXT, the second Rookie Ranking will be held, and two more Rookies will face the prospect of elimination.

Yeah I'm another one who is interested in participating, but would have to do an ENORMOUS amount of watching to cover what are for me massive, massive gaps. For instance, practically the entire 90s in wrestling. All of lucha. All of joshi. Etc. Like, I just looked at the old Smarkschoice list (no spoilers) and at the moment I'd feel able to confidently vote on or otherwise rate maybe 10% of those names. And this is something I've always wanted to rectify, so I guess a project like this would be a good excuse to get started on that.

I'd have to rewatch the Ambrose matches, but I'd definitely take Regal/Ohno over Steamboat/Savage. Cesaro match is a toss up. Not everybody is old enough to have watched WMIII live and get blown away in real time. Nothing against Steamer/Savage either. It's a great match.

I will, as long as there's no rush. I broke my leg on the weekend so I now have quite a bit of free time on my hands to sit in front of the computer. Depends of course on what exactly Loss envisions for it. I admit I liked 2011 a LOT so this will probably be a massive list. 2011 1st Tier Matches Smackdown Elimination Chamber Match, Elimination Chamber Triple H vs Undertaker, Wrestlemania 27 Randy Orton vs Christian, Over the Limit John Cena vs CM Punk, Money in the Bank John Cena vs Rey Mysterio, Raw 25th July 2nd Tier Matches Raw Elimination Chamber Match, Elimination Chamber Christian vs Alberto Del Rio (Ladder Match), Extreme Rules Drew McIntyre vs Chris Masters, Superstars 12th May Smackdown MITB Ladder Match, Money in the Bank Christian vs Randy Orton (No Holds Barred), Summerslam John Cena vs CM Punk, Summerslam Mark Henry vs Randy Orton, Night of Champions Mark Henry vs Randy Orton (HIAC), Hell in a Cell Mark Henry vs Big Show, Vengeance John Cena vs Alberto Del Rio (Last Man Standing), Vengeance 3rd Tier Matches The Miz vs John Morrison (Falls Count Anywhere), Raw 3rd January Show vs Drew vs Cody vs Dolph, Smackdown 7th January Edge vs Dolph Ziggler, Royal Rumble The Miz vs Daniel Bryan, Raw 14th February The Miz vs Jerry Lawler, Elimination Chamber Christian vs Alberto Del Rio, Smackdown 25th March Randy Orton vs CM Punk, Wrestlemania 27 Rey Mysterio vs Cody Rhodes (Falls Count Anywhere), Extreme Rules Randy Orton vs Christian, Smackdown 5th May Drew McIntyre vs Evan Bourne, Superstars 19th May Rey Mysterio vs CM Punk, Capitol Punishment Rey vs Alberto vs Punk (Falls Count Anywhere), Raw 20th June Rey/Riley vs Miz/Swagger (Tornado Tag), Raw 27th June Usos/Barreta vs Slater/Gabriel/Kidd, Superstars 30th June (superplex to the floor) Natalya vs Alicia Fox, Superstars 7th July Mark Henry vs Big Show, Money in the Bank Raw MITB Ladder Match, Money in the Bank Tyson Kidd vs Yoshi Tatsu (Necklace on a Pole Match), NXT 26th July (blow off for the action figure feud) Chris Masters vs Jack Swagger, Superstars 4th August Mark Henry vs Sheamus, Summerslam John Cena vs CM Punk, Raw 22nd August Tyson Kidd vs Trent Barreta, NXT 23rd August (or any of their matches) Randy Orton vs Christian (Cage Match), Smackdown 30th August Beth Phoenix vs Kelly Kelly, Night of Champions (Yes) Randy Orton vs Dolph Ziggler, Smackdown 28th October Randy Orton vs Cody Rhodes (Street Fight), Smackdown 4th November CM Punk vs Alberto Del Rio, Survivor Series Sheamus/Zack vs Dolph/Swagger, Smackdown 25th November Randy Orton vs David Otunga (Street Fight), Smackdown 29th November (Christmas trees are fun) Mark Henry vs Daniel Bryan (Cage Match), Smackdown 29th November Promos & Angles The Rock returns, Raw 14th February John Cena responds to The Rock, Raw 21st February Michael Cole & Jerry Lawler feud, Raw February-April Cody Rhodes' injury promos on Rey, Smackdown January-February Undertaker & Triple H staring contest, Raw 21st February Edge retirement promos, Raw 11th April & Smackdown 15th April R-Truth first heel promo ("Little Jimmy"), Raw 25th April Alex Riley turns on The Miz, Raw 23rd May R-Truth secedes from the WWE Universe, Raw 6th June Truth, Christian & Miz segment ("Riley!" "Randy!"), Raw 20th June CM Punk pipebomb promo, Raw 27th June Punk, Cena & Vince go-home segment, Raw 11th July Mr McMahon relieved as CEO, Raw 18th July CM Punk at San Diego Comic Con, 21st July CM Punk appearance at AAW, 23rd July CM Punk returns to Raw with 'Cult of Personality', Raw 25th July "Phil Brooks talking to Paul Levesque", Raw 12th September Cutting Edge with Henry & Orton, Smackdown 16th September Mark Henry post-match promo ("Don't start cheering now!"), Night of Champions Miz & Truth invade HIAC & get arrested, Hell in a Cell 'Vote of No Confidence' segment, Raw 3rd October R-Truth & The Miz promo ("pigeons!"), Survivor Series Zack Ryder 'Z True Long Island Story' highlights

Yeah I like bringing Stacy Kiebler in to appeal to the TD demographic. People talked about her potential name value to WWE ever since she hooked up with Clooney, but I think now with a specific female/reality show watching fanbase that would know her name, that potential is far more striking.

I'm breaking this up into years for my own sanity as that's how my mind works and my notes are compiled. I will list comprehensively on WWE since I've religiously watched the TV for the entire period. TNA I haven't watched frequently enough since 2010 to pretend to do the same, so I'll just throw in any TNA stuff I feel is noteworthy. I'm largely just giving my own personal favourites (while repressing my natural urge to list massive amounts of Divas matches) rather than what I think a consensus would be, so take what you will from this. 2010 1st Tier Matches Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels, Wrestlemania 26 2nd Tier Matches Rey Mysterio vs Shawn Michaels, Smackdown 29th January Rey Mysterio vs CM Punk, Smackdown 12th February John Cena vs Batista, Wrestlemania 26 Kofi Kingston vs Christian, Smackdown 14th May MCMG vs Beer Money (2/3 Falls), TNA Whole F'n Impact 12th August Chris Masters vs Drew McIntyre, Superstars 26th August Rey Mysterio vs Alberto Del Rio, Smackdown 8th October MCMG vs Generation Me (Empty Arena Match), TNA Reaction 18th November The Miz vs Jerry Lawler (TLC Match), Raw 29th November Sheamus vs John Morrison (Ladder Match), TLC 3rd Tier Matches Christian vs Ezekiel Jackson, Royal Rumble (great carryjob) Undertaker vs Rey Mysterio, Royal Rumble Rey Mysterio vs CM Punk, Wrestlemania 26 (really fun sprint) Jack Swagger vs John Morrison, Smackdown 23rd April John Cena vs Batista (Last Man Standing), Extreme Rules Chris Masters vs Dolph Ziggler, Superstars 13th May Bret Hart vs The Miz (No DQ), Raw 17th May (fun match-as-angle) CM Punk vs Rey Mysterio (Hair vs Mask), Over the Limit John Cena & Evan Bourne vs Sheamus & Edge, Raw 31st May (the mini Bourne push) Jack Swagger vs MVP, Smackdown 4th June (surprisingly good TV match) Chris Jericho vs Evan Bourne, Fatal Four Way Drew McIntyre vs Matt Hardy, Smackdown 25th June Smackdown MITB Ladder Match, Money in the Bank Jack Swagger vs Rey Mysterio, Money in the Bank Raw MITB Ladder Match, Money in the Bank (of the two MITBs this is the pick) Team WWE vs Nexus, Summerslam (fun match until the finish) John Morrison vs Sheamus (Falls Count Anywhere), Raw 13th September Daniel Bryan vs The Miz, Night of Champions John Cena vs Wade Barrett, Hell in a Cell (great heat) Show & Rey & Kofi vs Miz & Sheamus & Zeke, Smackdown 22nd October (super fun 6-man) Daniel Bryan vs Dolph Ziggler, Bragging Rights AJ Lee vs Naomi, NXT 23rd November Jack Swagger vs Kofi Kingston, Smackdown 26th November Jack Swagger vs Kofi Kingston, Smackdown 3rd December (I loved their mini series, lots of building on matches and learned counters) Rey vs Alberto vs Edge vs Kane (TLC Match), TLC (fun with ladders) John Cena vs Dolph Ziggler, Raw 20th December (following the nuclear heat segment with Vickie) Promos & Angles Bret Hart returns to Raw, Raw 4th January Hulk Hogan, The Band, Jeff Hardy returns, etc., TNA Impact 4th January 'Orlando Screwjob', TNA Impact 14th January Serena head shaving & SES induction, Smackdown 22nd January Undertaker & Shawn make Streak vs Career match, Raw 22nd February NXT debuts, NXT 23rd February Cena & Batista "kissing babies and hugging fat girls" promo, Raw 1st March CM Punk sings 'Happy Birthday' to Aaliyah, Smackdown 12th March Shawn Michaels' retirement speech, Raw 29th March Jack Swagger cashes in MITB, Smackdown 2nd April Jay Lethal & Ric Flair segment, TNA Impact 3rd May Jack Swagger trophies/Swaggie segment, Smackdown 14th May Daniel Bryan promo on Cole & brawl with Miz, NXT 18th May Batista quits, Raw 24th May The Nexus debuts, Raw 7th June Raw 900th Episode stuff, Raw 30th August Jeff Hardy turns heel/Immortal revealed, TNA Bound for Glory Team SD & Team Raw promo segment, Smackdown 22nd October (leads into 6-man) Santino & Sheamus tea party, Raw 8th November Piper's Pit with John Cena, Raw 15th November The Miz cashes in MITB, Raw 22nd November John Cena & Vickie Guerrero segment, Raw 20th December

I can come up with a WWE/TNA list with a bit of thought.

That same match and rating is what I always think about when Meltzer's ratings come up. When you think of all the comparable WWE main events that he rated ****1/4 or higher...it's baffling.

Jumping in here, but tag team matches aren't a bad place to start. They can get spotty and are worked along the same lines as TNA matches in general (so if your problem with the house style is that severe, take everything I'm saying with extreme caution), but you also get moments where the tag structure helps with psychology, especially earlier on when TNA still had that vaguely Southern feel. The AMW vs Triple X feud is a good example. Underneath the confusion of Weekly PPV-era storylines and the spottiness of moves and finishing stretches, the matches themselves are generally quite good and have clear face/heel divides and strong tag structure. I recommend their major matches, especially the two cage matches (June 2003 and December 2004 - the latter having the Skipper cage walk). The AMW vs Naturals Ladder match from July 2004 is much the same. You hear "ladder match" and think the worst when it comes to psychology, but this is actually a completely different match to what you'd expect - it's more along the lines of a hate-filled street fight where ladders happen to be the weapon of choice, complete with a major heat stretch. This is unintentionally becoming an AMW-a-thon, but AMW vs Team Canada at Final Resolution 2005 is amazing and one of my favourite tag matches. I'm not sure how up your personal alley it would be since it's heavy on interference, bullshit and general overkill, but I want to mention it anyway since it's amazing and the best TNA match nobody ever talks about. Other matches from the list I think are worth looking at/feature strong psychology/confound expectations of TNA: 50. Last Man Standing: AJ Styles vs. Bully Ray (6/12/11, Slammiversary) This is way too low on a list, I'd have it Top 10, and is a really strong brawl with big/little dynamics and is very heavy on telling the story of the match. (Bully Ray vs Austin Aries from Sacrifice 2012 is worked along much the same lines and is another must-watch) 36. Samoa Joe vs. Chris Sabin (7/17/05, No Surrender) 7. Super X Cup Finals: Samoa Joe vs. AJ Styles (8/14/05, Sacrifice) 3. TNA X Division: AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe (12/11/05, Turning Point) I group these together in a "Samoa Joe in 2005" kind of way. Joe in the X Division was a revelation because all of the flippydoes finally had someone to fly around, flip over, bounce off and bump for, and flying, flipping, bouncing and bumping are big strengths for guys like AJ and Sabin. And Joe was great murderising everyone. These in particular are matches that tend towards a big/little story and babyface selling, instead of just the spotfests the X-D was famous for. 34. Kurt Angle vs. Jeff Jarrett (10/12/08, Bound For Glory) This is great. Jarrett manages to reign in every bad tendency Angle has in his body and they just work an excellent, structurally sound grudge match (if that's not too awkward a phrase - but really, it's one of the best laid out Angle matches ever). 18. Steel Cage Match/#1 Contendership: AJ Styles vs. Abyss (4/24/05, Lockdown) It's on the first page, watch it, it rules. It is Abyss' crowning achievement as a wrestler since for once in his life he works as a perfectly competent monster in a cage, and AJ was the perfect guy to bounce off him and sell his ass off 4. Texas Death Match: James Storm vs. Chris Harris (5/13/07, Sacrifice) One good guy, one bad guy, a personal feud, and a whole lot of hatred, violence and blood to settle it like men.

I have to admit, I found the 18 seconds bit hilarious (yes, even watching live), and the extent of people's reactions even more hilarious. I remember a lot of "He'll be better off back in ROH where he'll be RESPECTED!!" nonsense around that time.

Like I said in the buffer match thread, I thought these two did a really good job of building this match slowly in order to get the crowd back up from their post-Streak lull. They threw in all the DQ bullshit early where it didn't matter, and Jericho went to work with some back work that, again, kept the match ticking along until the crowd was ready to respond. And when they were, they went into the big finishing stuff. The finish itself is also really cool.

To be fair to Brie, running in on the match and hitting Steph doesn't require her to act like an extended acting skit does. She'd pull that off fine,

I don't think the implication was that he was booking it. It's more a question of whether a buffer match (or absence of one) has helped or hindered his own matches in the past and whether that has influenced his opinion on the subject. On the topic, I don't really think there's solid evidence that either way works "better" than the other. You can't really prove that "this match would have had more heat with/without a buffer" or "this match was helped by having a buffer"...how do you know? Sometimes a buffer works. Sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes consecutive main events works. Sometimes it doesn't. Anyway, inserting a meaningless match is not the only way to bring the crowd up or down during a show. There are plenty of things to do there, videos or skits or promos or long entrances, or just simply working for the crowd during the match. One of the recent Manias has a good example of that, I forget if it was Jericho/Edge or Jericho/Punk, but they came on after the Streak match (maybe even with a buffer beforehand) and the crowd was still dead, so they knuckled down and kept the match ticking along on simmer for the first half, until the crowd finally started to thaw and get into what they were doing, and then they kicked into high gear and got a good response. Compare that to the attempted quick-fix of Hunter/Orton where they hit both their finishers in the first few minutes to try and force a reaction straight away, and it backfired and the match never recovered. (It must have been Jericho/Punk actually, following Taker/Hunter. Taker/Shawn II was the main event of WM26.)

And WM22 too. (WM23 was the Trump/baby skit, WM22 was the family prayer skit, right? "Dear God, I don't like you, and you don't like me!")

I can honestly envision a scenario where Hunter cheats to beat Bryan in their match so that Hogan can do his job as the host of Mania and create a four-way. Kind of like Orton beating Rey and Rey getting put back in anyway because reasons. It sounds God awful and is unlikely, but I can imagine them trying to stretch it out like that, and of all people, it's Hunter.

Yeah, Batista is key to the reactions which in the end tipped them to doing the match in the first place. But I mean, where he is now, as a begrudging heel whom nobody actually wants to see and is just there to tease a non-happy finish, as compared to him coming in as the supposed big babyface returning star to headline Mania...it's quite a way away. Orton is pretty much furniture though. He's been funny and all, but in terms of being important to the angle in any way or being a guy anyone cares about, he's really quite invisible.

The same way anyone does. They go under a hood surrounded by crew people while the lights are turned off during a video/other distracting distraction. Or go before the show starts, stay there all night and poop under the ring. But that seems less common these days.

It's not the main event anymore.

Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if people actually pay attention to WWE tv or really just skim most of it over, because complaints about how the Christian-Sheamus feud is horribly booked don't ring true with me at all. They aren't "wrestling for no reason". I think the feud has been very well booked, step by step, and they've been having excellent matches. I've seen complaints to the tune of "Sheamus wins every match"....well, YEAH, which is why Christian keeps attacking and cheapshotting him and getting progressively angrier and angrier. When Christian DOES finally win he's going to do it in the shitheeliest way possible and brag about it endlessly. Which will be great. I pay perfect attention to WWE. Just because there's ostensibly a reason doesn't mean it's a good one. I said this specifically. Christian is mad that Sheamus stole his spotlight or accidentally kicked him? OK, but nobody in the crowd actually gives a shit about any of those things. Why would they? What does it matter? What consequences arise from those things? It's all surface-level bullshit. Christian has got a little promo time to do his heel turn but it's the same "I'm desperate" promo every time that tells me nothing. Sheamus doesn't talk much, and when he does it's the same Sheamus promo. And I'm not dissing these guys' ability to cut a promo, don't get me wrong. It's the writing that lets them down, because they have nothing to talk about. They have a match, Sheamus wins. Christian whines, Sheamus jokes. They have another match next show, Sheamus wins. Christian whines, Sheamus jokes. They have another match on the next show, Sheamus wins. Christian whines, Sheamus jokes. And none of the results matter AT ALL. It isn't even a problem that Sheamus wins all the time, I don't give a shit, but it really doesn't matter if he does. If he split the results with Christian, it wouldn't make a single bit of difference, because nobody is going to care who wins random match #3 between them when there were no consequences or interesting developments from the first two. I'm sure Christian is going to get a cheap win over Sheamus soon. I'm just not sure why it's going to matter or why I'm supposed to care, or if anyone will besides you. And look. I am a GIGANTIC modern WWE apologist. I love the shit out of it, I have mastered the ability to enjoy good matches in a vacuum, and I enjoy the angles when they're done well. I've enjoyed the Christian/Sheamus matches in a vacuum, but this is not an example of a well booked feud. It's them finding stuff to say on commentary about a feud that consists of guys wrestling on TV over and over and over.

I think this is the opposite. Sheamus/Christian is basically a textbook example of a modern 'nothing feud'. Guys wrestle on one TV show, re-match for no reason on the next show, then have to have a rubber match on the next show, and etc. all for no apparent reason that anyone could care about. Sheamus being a stiff fucker in the ring and them killing each other with kendo sticks doesn't mean the feud itself is intense or interesting. There's nothing to the feud, it isn't about anything other than 'we have to keep wrestling each other for a few weeks'. Which is the problem the OP is talking about. The main event or top two main event feuds have direction, they have long promos and angles setting them up, they have music videos, and they usually don't have to wrestle each other three times on TV before they get to the 'real' match. On the undercard it's basically 'they beat the champs in a non-title match to get this shot' or 'we have to keep wrestling each other for a few weeks', and all you really get to do to build your match is wrestle the guy a few times before the PPV. I'm trying to think of the last midcard feud to get proper epic feud treatment. Throwing out Mania cards because they seem to have like four main events. I'm sure there are more recent examples, but MVP vs Matt Hardy in 2007 is the first thing to mind, which isn't good. Oh there's also Rey vs Punk in 2010. Can't really think of anything else off the top of my head. Shield vs Bryan and co. last year maybe.

Orton sure loses a lot. Yeah maybe "undeserving" was a bad expression because I didn't mean it like a guy who loses a lot. I guess I meant more "midcard champion". Orton loses a lot on TV but he's a big established star on the show and at least looks like he should be on top. Alberto, Miz, Sheamus' first reign...those guys literally looked like midcarders who had been given the WWE Title by clerical error. They seemed out of place, because they weren't booked or perceived to be on that level.

Yeah I think the problem with Alberto was just that his push was too high. I feel like if he had debuted five/ten years ago, he would have won the U.S. Title fairly quickly and held it for like a year straight as the foreign heel cartoon champ dominating the midcard. And he would have worked fine as like the second from the top match at most on the Smackdown brand. Maybe he gets a minor title shot on PPV, maybe he is one of the final four 'potential winners' in the Rumble. And if THAT works, they move him up. If he'd been pushed like MVP was for the first 18 months, he'd have been a lot better off, is what I'm saying. But debuting in the 10s means he jobs for six months and then wins the world title. And then jobs some more. And world title in his first year on telly was just way above his station. But that's all they can think to do with guys. Lose matches and win world titles. At the same time. Thankfully they seem to be getting away from that, especially with the unified title. I think Alberto was actually the last completely undeserving WWE Champion.

Depending on if you want to say it counts or was too 'main event', Eddie vs Rey in 2005. That was a midcard feud that actually drove business for a while.