efrim

I'm trying to get more serious lately about watching highly regarded Lucha and Japan stuff and I have a perhaps naive question. When watching older, especially non-english footage, what do you use to ground yourself in some kind of historical context for whats happening? Watching great matches is still fun in a vacuum, but I'm often frustrated in lacking information on what the outlook of the promotion at the time was, or what the major angles and feuds of the era were, what was making tape at the time and what wasn't, all sorts of things. Listening to podcasts with some of you all, it often seems like this grand oral tradition of knowledge I have no idea how to access.

Flair. Growing up with no exposure to WCW and not really knowing a thing about Flair until late 1996 is about the worst way to learn about him. He'd lost a lot of his edge by then and booking did everything possible to make him look like a joke. Of course I knew he was a legend and had some vaguely positive memories of his WWF run, but it wasn't enough to stop my 13 year old self from thinking he was wildly washed up and annoying.

There appears to be a significant bias in favour of WWF/WCW guys who worked during the 80's and 90's. Every voter has his or her blind spots, but 80's and 90's North American workers (well, North-of-the Rio-Grande North American) are absolutely nobody's blindspot. No surprise, they're the workers who practically everyone has seen. But the end result is that these workers are getting a boost over pre-boom wrestlers or foreign wrestlers who fewer people have seen. There are some really funny placements that illustrate this--one guys gets better average ballot placement but is outright omitted from more ballots, resulting in him falling behind someone with worse average numbers (but more ballots): 29. El Hijo del Santo (95 ballots, 22.5 avg ranking, 27 top tens) 28. Bobby Eaton (128 ballots, 41.4 avg ranking, 0 top tens) ----- 22. Negro Casas (108 ballots, 19.0 avg ranking, 52 top tens) 21. William Regal (138 ballots, 33.0 avg ranking, 8 top tens) ----- 16. Nick Bockwinkel (132 ballots, 21.4 avg ranking, 46 top tens) 15. Ricky Steamboat (144 ballots, 24.6 avg ranking, 17 top tens) ----- 13. Genichiro Tenryu (131 ballots, 17.5 avg ranking, 56 top ten votes) 12. Eddie Guerrero (146 ballots, 24.2 avg ranking, 29 top ten votes) None of this is surprising, but some people--especially the luchadors--are getting hosed. While it's perfectly possible that some of these omissions are intentional and considered, I suspect most are a result of lack of exposure. I wonder whether there will be any desire to find a way to counteract this in 2026. Full disclosure: one reason I didn't submit a ballot was because I knew my ignorance of lucha and some other styles would result in shafting those workers. This is interesting and a good thing to notice, but also fully expecting. Individual lists will always be better considered and more interesting than the final tally

Even in a vacuum, I think Andre confers a huge bonus to WM3. The first time I watched it on VHS as a kid I didn't know jack about the build, but the mere presence of Andre is so captivating. Even old and broken down as he was, I was amazed by him.

Part of me is inclined to argue Stephanie, but Vince's body of quality work in several areas is too much to deny. Stephanie would have to continue at her current level for years to match Vince.

WWE's spastic sense of when to cut to another camera. If you ever sit and try to count the number of camera cuts in a single 10 minute plus WWE match, I can almost assure you you'll lose count at some point. They allow absolutely nothing to breath. Wrestlers consistently lining up signature moves or finishes to cater to the hard camera is also annoying, but I can hardly blame them when they're otherwise at the mercy of the million and one camera cuts.

This is the impression I get. I feel like passive aggression from WWE is pretty likely here, but Austin is too generally content and busy to keep up with the gamesmanship. They need him more than he needs them at this point. Edit: And I don't think anything bugs the WWE more than individuals who can be bigger than the company

Ashley Massaro immediately comes to mind. But I kind of agree that such a pick somehow goes against the spirit of the question.

Breaking now on twitter: https://twitter.com/WWE/status/584106118399528960 Seems a long time coming considering her husband and her noticeable disinterest in multiple matches since her return.

Anybody have access to the Gary Hart autobiography? Been dying to read it.

I suspect we'll have no lack of "passion and pride" examples, so I'll do one with a different tilt. Name of Worker: William Regal Promotion: WWF, 4/29/02 Link: Regal is just a perfect miserly and hatable comic heel here. His range of disgusted faces is unparalleled. With Hogan coming off of Mania and reverting back to the red and yellow, this promo helps move along a couple of things: firstly it reintroduces Hulkamania to anyone in the audience that could possibly be unaware of it. Secondly, it needles any Hogan skeptics by channeling their sentiments through Regal's pompous persona. Its a perfectly subtle invitation to just come along and enjoy the absurd fun of Hulkamania, earnestly or otherwise. Even if you're still a Hogan hater by the end of this promo, you can't help but laugh at yourself a little.

Yeah, I think WWE can safely wipe their hands of The Human Tazz Tribute Machine

That's pretty much the same story for most of Hulk Hogan's 1980's matches. Everybody who was everybody inevitably wound up staring at the ceiling for Hogan. They may slander how he was booked and how he didn't want to put them over, but none of them flat out refused to do the job, they all agreed to it, simply because of how much money they'd make doing it. It would be foolish for anybody to turn down a big arena job to Hogan in his peak, given the potential earnings. Diversion of topic, but still technically on topic, can anybody recall examples of wrestlers who have flat out refused to sign big money deals or do jobs that would net them money that they were idiots to pass up on, simply out of principle or ego? We all know Hogan refused going to a rubber match with Michaels in 2005, a program that would have netted him considerable money (possibly even more than the Summerslam match, had the rubber taken place at the following Mania?). Hogan's claimed in recent interviews that he wanted to do a series with Piper back in WWF that would involve them switching the title for a while, but Piper was unwilling to job for him. If I understood him correctly, the idea was Hogan would win, then Piper would win the title, then Hogan would win the title back. But Piper didn't want to do the initial job to show good faith or whatever. No idea if there's any truth to this as Hogan has been prone to some real flights of fancy in his memory.

Whatever they might say, they don't want a stone cold Steve Austin in 2015. They are consistently booked to avoid that level of heat. I think what they absolutely loathe is the idea of anyone being bigger than the WWE brand. I should add that I think they book this way despite what should be the obvious fact that they are hugely reliant on part-timers who have personal brands beyond the WWE.

Whatever they might say, they don't want a stone cold Steve Austin in 2015. They are consistently booked to avoid that level of heat. I think what they absolutely loathe is the idea of anyone being bigger than the WWE brand.

One of those names is not like the others, one of those names just doesn't belong..... (It's one who's current role is "Midcard Tag Team with Tyson Kidd") mid-card is probably even a bit generous.

Stevens going in has gotta be a favor to Patterson. I wouldn't put him in because he fails the one real criteria of the WWE Hall of Fame - "Would pop a modern WWE crowd"

The thing is they have more options than Reigns. Not to make a huge list, as there are options, but Dean Ambrose is right there. Over the summer who was more over and they shit it away. Why the Wyatt Family was split up and not elevated together over time is a mystery too. They didn't even milk an angle where Harper broke free and Wyatt brought somebody in to replace him. That stable could have run and run. Say what you will about Wyatt himself, there was a time where he was one of the more interesting guys on the roster, people were really into him and those Wyatt/Shield matches were the most anticipated matches on the shows they were on. It's been a long-running trend where WWE will break up teams/stables well before they need to and with no future plan but the Wyatts one is the most ridiculous. Not having any long-term plan for Ambrose after The Shield broke up is up there with it though... YES. Been thinking this for a while. I thought breaking up the Shield was a good move, but the Wyatts should have stayed together. In fact, the shield split would have helped the Wyatts continue to get over by proxy since they could have put over how now that the Shield has broken up there is nobody to stop the Wyatts path of destruction or whatever. Of all the baffling shit they've done recently, nothing confuses me more than breaking up the Wyatt family. Really no reason given and nothing came of it.

Just realized what last night feels like: it feels like it must have felt to be a WCCW fan during Lance Von Erich's run. Except that it's one year later and another one of Waldo's kids is coming to the ring.

Great point, very true.

Well, lets not downplay how good a Sheamus/Bryan match would be - even in a vacuum. Their 2/3 falls bout at Extreme Rules 2012 is one of Bryan's absolute finest matches. Turn Sheamus heel and you got a nice little something... That said, it would be awfully cold comfort compared to a Bryan/Lesnar main event that I've been chomping at the bit to see.

Great pick. Pillman never crossed my mind. His work in WCW was incredibly underrated, as not just a tag team wrestler but as a singles guy as well, he excelled in both roles, which is something of a rarity. WCW were never going to give him a push as a serious heavyweight though, I think that's what the biggest problem in that company was. The glass ceiling was firmly intact above his head with Bischoff and company. Still, even in his WWF run, I think had he been in good health (and not died as a result), they may have eventually had cause to push him as a main event talent. Certainly, Pillman would have been right at home during the Attitude era. Who knows, maybe he would have been so popular that he would have supplanted The Rock as Austin's career rival? Then again, you have to consider whether or not he would have left the WWF following the Montreal Screw Job, out of loyalty to the Hart Family (as a close friend and student of Stu's)? Would WCW even take him back? Probably, given the time frame and desire to pinch as many WWF names as they could, but then, he'd probably never amount to anything more than what Bulldog and Anvil did in WCW. Would the WCW fans have even bought a lightweight wrestler holding a World title? You had plenty of guys in the main event scene and I dont think there was room for Pillman as a serious contender to the crown. It wasent a bad thing who had the belt then, dont know why fans say thats what the biggest problem in WCW was as it was fine who it was holding the title. The final year of WCW yeah id agree with but before that nope. With Pillman's football background, I think you could have sold it to the audience. Built in story of the big time underdog having to once again get to the top in the land of giants.

Seems a shame why these two never clashed on PPV. If I was Vince I would have had Bret/Savage for Mania 10. Yeah, their one match really gave me everything I'd want from these two in a small dose, but its a lost opportunity that they never had a longer, feature bout. Its a great bit of chemistry between the two with Bret as the cool and collected merciless heel and Macho as the fiery babyface that can sell like a champ. The outside the ring dynamics of Neidhart and Hart / Elizabeth are also fairly compelling for me. Good menace to distract the babyface and Macho can pretty effortlessly play the paranoid rubbernecker to maximum effect.

Lot of stuff in here I agree with to varying degrees. I would throw in Randy Savage Vs Bret Hart SNME 11/28/87 A match I consider to be more or less perfect bell to bell.

Just starting up with this thread and already really enjoying it. Watching the first match now, but I've scanned the pages ahead for commentary. I'll be very interested in any insight/matches you can bring to the table that demonstrate Nakano's transition from important flunky to top star.