W2BTD

This is one of those things where you should probably expand on your thoughts a bit. The discussion side is that I've enjoyed the VoW podcasts and the forum threads where the work of the wrestlers is really dig into. I find that sort of talk deeply compelling and I'm happy that Meltzer's HoF inspires talk of that kind. As for why the actual HoF is a joke, --Who and who does not have a ballot is completely arbitrary. Guys like Dylan are just getting a ballot, while someone like Mark Madden gets one every year. --It's pro wrestling hall of fame, all the MMA and other outside pursuits should have no bearing. That's like saying Steve Tasker should get an extra bump to be in the NFL HoF because of his charity work. --Speaking of MMA, Dave is incredibly vague about how people should factor in MMA careers into their voting. He refuses to take a stand and that means people are voting from vastly different sets of criteria that could easily be centralized by Dave taking a stance. --The region/bracket process is horrible and yields horrible results every year. Guys are in regions that make no sense, or don't get in based on some sort of bracket methodology that is both confusing and irritating useless. --There's never been a true standard as to how wrestlers get in. Some people have been grandfathered in, others have to go through the voting process, others disappear from the ballot and reappear at random times. --Dave uses polls to decide who gets on a ballot sometimes, that's a really bad way of doing such a thing. --I don't believe any emphasis should be placed on drawing power. It isn't a trustworthy metric, it tells us very little about the skills of a wrestler, and Dave has shown that when he feels like it (the High Flyers) for example he will ignore drawing power to suit his own needs. There's more, but I'm tired and that's all I have right now. I'll go point by point here. -Unfortunately, there really isn't a way for dave to choose who gets ballots which isn't arbitrary. There isn't a collective group of wrestling writers like the BBWAA in baseball for example. When people fly into dave's radar, he sends them ballots. As far as people in the business, he says he sends ballots to just about everybody. When people like Colt Cabana talk about receiving ballots, that sort of backs that up. He can't make people vote, he can only send the ballots out and hope that they do. As for Mark Madden, even though i'm not a fan and don't agree with much of what he has to say, I think he definitely deserves a ballot. He's been a paid wrestling writer for decades, and worked inside the industry. -I am someone who bugs dave all of the time about splitting the year end awards, and I no longer vote anything MMA related as my small meaningless protest in that regard. But when it comes to the HOF, I'm perfectly fine with dave being ambiguous about it, because of the crossover historically that is impossible to separate. If dave comes out and dictates that MMA shouldn't be considered at all, then people will complain about past inductees like Funaki or Sakuraba where is "counted". If he dictates that it should absolutely be considered, then you open up a can of worms with people wanting MMA fighters voted on. I'm fine with leaving it up to the voters to weigh the MMA stuff as they choose. To me that's a valuable part of the process, allowing each voter to weigh everything as they see fit. -The brackets are an issues, but really an impossible one to fix. There is no perfect method. Some guys get screwed, but what is the alternative? I hate the AUS/CARIBBEAN/PACIFIC/AFRICA thing, and would change that by adding more names and splitting it into three regions (Australia/Pacific, Caribbean, Africa). Aside from that, I would leave the regions be, even with some of the flaws, because there is no better way that i've heard suggested. -The 1996 class being auto inducted doesn't bother me at all, because aside from maybe Ted DiBiase, every single one of those guys were going to moonwalk in anyway. Why bother voting on Hogan or Baba or Flair or Santo? They're all getting 90%+, so who cares? Since then, it's 60% to get in, under 10% falls off. People reappear when voters show interest in voting for them by asking dave to put them back on. Wrestling isn't like real sports. Careers don't really ever end. There are no hard statistics, research never stops. I don't have a problem with people being put back on. -When did dave ever use a poll to decide who got back on I am not aware of this. -This last one seems mental to me. Wrestling at its core is all about drawing money. And drawing power is THE most trustworthy metric, because working ability & influence are purely subjective. The drawing power quotient is at least rooted in some semblance of fact, and then from there is open to interpretations. I do think that most voters weigh drawing power too heavily, as technically all three quotients are meant to be weighed equally, but the entire purpose of wrestling is to draw money. As far as dave "ignoring" drawing power to suit his needs, i'm not even sure what that means. dave has one vote. He's entitled to his opinion if he thinks the High Flyers didn't draw a lot of money.

I read everything you said, and responded using the examples that you used. I'm not even really disagreeing with your smart vs dumb premise in terms of booking/promoting, but my counter to that, is that as a fan, when the rubber meets the road why should I care? And again, i'm not defending the early ROH commentary, I don't like it either (wait until you hear Gabe- err, "Jimmy Bower" screaming DAAAAANNNGEROOOUUUSSS!!), but I totally see why they presented things in that manner. Just as I can see why McMahon graced us with his terrible house show cards. Doesn't mean I have to like those, either.

But here's the thing. As a fan, why should I care if a promoter is being smart? The only thing that concerns me is being entertained. If ROH is giving me my money's worth every show, what does it matter to me if they are unwittingly stifling long term growth? Booking SD Jones vs Johnny Rodz, Ivan Putski, Jay Strongbow, etc on cards means your card is going to be terrible. As a fan, I couldn't care less if it was smart or not for long term business. My one & only concern is enjoying what i'm watching. And i'm glad people like Rodz or Putski or Strongbow woulnd't be able to cut it in 2014, because who wants to watch that shit?

I thought they had better matches as faces, but were more interesting from a non wrestling standpoint as heels. I loathe the Bushwhacker matches, but I mean, it's the Bushwhackers, who had instant go away heat with me. I really don't have a good feel for what a list of 100 tag teams would look like if I made one, but I suspect this team probably wouldn't make it. And this coming from someone who absolutely loves the mid to late 80's WWF tag team scene. Bulldogs, Harts, Rockers, Islanders, Strike Force, Brain Busters, Killer Bees, Orient Express (both versions), even Demolition who I found to be dry once the bell rang, all of these teams would be comfortably ahead of the Rougeaus. I'd probably have them ahead of the Dream Team (both versions) because Beefcake & Bravo are both terrible. Definitely ahead of the Bushwhackers, even if I include the Sheepherders stuff. Probably ahead of Young Stallions & Conquistadors, but that's no lock. Same for Haku & Andre, because Andre was shot but again, that no lock.

You can cherry pick like venegas is doing, but the simple answer is not very often. They run a few times per year, and have a locker room full of indie all stars who are actively attempting to one up each other. It would be like trying to claim Dragon Gate is diverse because some of the big Dream & Twin gate matches are worked slower with more focused selling.

Christian's early TNA work was nothing short of fantastic. He came in motivated & excited about being given a real chance with the ball. Eventually the TNA malaise that hits everybody took over, but it took longer with him, and he never really hit the depths that most other do (Booker T comes to mind as a guy who completely & thoroughly gave up and stopped trying to the point that i'm pretty sure he was seeing how little he could care on purpose while still getting away with it). Christian was always good, but I think from TNA onward is where he went from good to great. He will always be the guy for me who managed to get me totally invested in Randy Orton matches. If you're one of those people who completely ignore TNA, get a hold of Christian's stuff and dive in. It's good.

Regarding ROH commentary, I'm not defending it from a quality standpoint, but you have to remember that the DVD's were the lifeblood of their business model in the early days, and the selling point of the DVD's was that ROH was a workrate promotion giving workrate classics to workrate fans. So Parv, that is why ROH wrestlers went into matches actively attempting to work MOTY contenders & ****+ matches, in some cases up & down the entire card. That's what was selling the DVD's, and the trickle down effect for the wrestlers was that this is how they were gaining exposure & reputations. It's easier to sell months or even years old DVD's on the strength of "hey, this is that show with five 4-star matches" rather than, "hey, this is that show with a few minor storyline advancements, a decent promo by a midcarder, a prelim face turn, and a darn good main event that set up the KILLER rematch in Philly four months later." Especially with those fans and what those fans wanted in that era.

Well, since Joe left the territory after throwing out the challenge, I had to turn on my tag team partner to keep things fresh. I imagine once Joe comes back and we start feuding over the legacy of this company, you and I will form an uneasy alliance to combat the vagabond Bruiser Brody-like no selling Joe before he runs out of the territory demanding a bigger payoff. fantastic. Here is what happened. I don't know if you listened to the historical candidates show we did w/Dylan, and now that I think about it i'm not even sure if it ended up making the tape, but I casually brought up my love for The Islanders for some unknown reason, and Dylan mentioned that you were also a big fan. Brother, I can't have malice for an Islanders fan.

Or, this. Bingo.

My go to example for this type of discussion is always Masato Yoshino vs Bill Dundee. Those two guys just happen to be the two random completely opposite dudes I thought of the first time I brought up this point, so I've stuck with them. My Yoshino/Dundee theory is this: I find it impossible, and also completely unfair, to compare them as performers, because what they are trying to accomplish in the ring and the psychology "rules" they are working under could not possibly be more different. So what is the point? All Yoshino/Dundee cases will always come down to (wait for it, Sam...) style bias. Whatever style you prefer is going to win out. I suppose you could really get super in depth about things and try to sort out who is better at their particular style in relation to others in their respective styles, but i'm exhausted just thinking about attempting that, and honestly, style bias will still rear its head. Conclusion? It is perfectly acceptable to no sell jazz if you think jazz sucks.

If you are Sami Callihan (or anybody else, for that matter) you can not go to PWG and do deliberate limb work or a 70's style Dory match or long focused periods of selling or anything aside from a fast paced, progressive, "can you top this" spot-a-thon. As stated, i'm not even a fan of Sami, but if he went to Reseda and worked a spot fest with Davey, then that should be a feather in his cap as a worker, not a downgrade, because he worked the exact style of match that fit what the promotion and the fans of the promotion want. This speaks directly to my point from other threads that wrestling psychology is 100% context dependent, and one set of standards can not be applied like a blanket to all promotions, styles, or eras. Sami is obviously a guy who knows how to work multiple styles, including the GO GO GO PWG style, which is probably the fastest paced and most highspot centric style on earth (even more so than Dragon Gate, which gets an unfair rep for this sometimes). If he can slug it out with Finlay one night, trade holds in Europe the next, and keep pace with Davey in PWG the following weekend, to me that would be evidence that he's well rounded. Curt Hawkins went to PWG for BOLA, and got booed out of the building for working WWE style. It took Trent Baretta months to adjust to the faster pace of the indies. Kevin Steen recently said on WWE.com that adapting to WWE style is easier for him than adapting to ROH style, where fans don;t settle for the same shit every time out or the same sequence of three babyface moves and always demand something new. Sami went to Reseda and did what Curt Hawkins couldn't, and what took Trent months to perfect.

Akiyama is just plain savage here. This is a great example of modern grumpy veteran Akiyama, and it has a good chance of making my top ten matches of the year. I love this match. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2711vk_jun-akiyama-vs-kento-miyahara-ajpw_sport I have more thoughts that include spoilers, and since this is a new match I'll give it a few days before I post them.

I couldn't stand this guy at all and hated his presence on EVOLVE/DGUSA shows, until the tail end of his indie run when I turned the corner on him. Then he signed with WWE and literally disappeared.

This might be true. Might. I struggle to find anything he does insulting. But he doesn't really have a single major quality. And what makes him better than say, Suwama, Morishima, Sugiura, Go Shiozaki, Takaiwa, Kojima or Okabayashi? What is your argument for Sekimoto as a top 20 guy of all professional wrestling ever? What are the matches that he has produced that you are so high on that you would put him on that level? I think he's roughly a million times better than Morishima, who I think is generally terrible. I like Suwama, Shiozaki, Okabayashi, & Suguira just fine, a couple of those guys would probably make my 100, but Sekimoto is pretty easily better than all of them. Kojima I am a huge fan of, and I think he's criminally underrated. That one is close, but I prefer Sekimoto. I wouldn't argue with anybody who said Kojima was better.

Heart? What do you mean by heart? His willingness to withstand a certain amount of Chops? I don't think "heart" is a quality that really matters in pro-wrestling. Brock Lesnar doesn't have any "heart" but he's better than a million guys that do. Story? Pro-wrestling matches in general aren't examples of great narration and Sekimoto would be the last guy to credit for something like that. I saw that Sekimoto vs Okabayashi match. I have it ranked as the 31st greatest japanese pro wrestling match that occurred in 2013. I can see why some would rate it higher-even a lot higher-but for someone to rate Sekimoto as one of the greatest 20 wrestlers ever based on matches like that being the most high-end stuff he's done......don't get it sorry. I'm baffled by the bold. I used "heart & fight" to describe Sekimoto in my first post in the thread, and those are two of the qualities you would probably find in most of my favorite wrestlers. I am a huge fan of guys who convey a real sense of heart in their work, because that's what gets me emotionally invested in a match. It's like what Alan said earlier, you can watch a perfectly executed match that you forget about five minutes after watching it, because it has no soul. Sekimoto is a guy who almost always pulls me in emotionally because he gets across a real sense of heart in his bouts. I can see where some might think he goes a little heavy on the fighting spirit sometimes, but I dont care because I love that shit and see it as a plus most of the time. I like my wrestlers to fight to the death like losing the match is the last fucking thing on Earth they want to happen, and you need to kill them to beat them. And that's Sekimoto's style. As for wrestling matches not being good vehicles for telling stories...well, we're obviously on very different pages if you believe that.

I thought for sure he'd be a modern puro guy you guys would really dig pretty much across the board. With a gun to my head, he'd have been my pick... ...and I'd be dead, apparently!

Probably my favorite mat based lucha guy from back in the 90's before lucha lost my full attention. I still enjoy his old man stuff today, although he's showing serious signs lately of being washed up.

Big E should study Sekimoto tapes. Along those lines, Sekimoto would be the perfect opponent for Rusev, because the Big E matches were great, and Sekimoto is like a seasoned Big E.

Lol, literally seconds after I hitting send on a microscope post saying that I think Sekimoto is the kind of guy PWO might really dig, I find this thread where people seem to be tepid on him. Figures. This guy is GREAT. If I vote, this is a top 20 guy, maybe higher. He's a beefy guy who works exactly like a beefy guy should. I love wrestlers who can convey a sense of real heart & fight, and he does it better than almost anybody. His offense looks stiff & brutal. He sells with fantastic facials and sounds. His matches always, ALWAYS hold my full attention and are well structured with awesome peaks. Despite his size and physical strength, he still manages to do a great job being a sympathetic babyface when called for, which isn't easy for big powerhouse dudes (see:Mark Henry, who is generally awful at doing anything besides making mean faces). I don't think Sekimoto has a single major flaw.

Sekimoto is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time, and a guy that I would think people around here would really, really like, but I've been wrong about that before so who knows. If I end up voting in the top 100 thing, this is a top 20 contender, maybe higher. The Shinobu match from this year is brilliant. I'd also recommend the "leg match" vs Okabayashi. Not sure of the date. Alan would know instantly.

McChesney is super underrated, probably because he doesn't get booked much in the high profile indies.

The Benadryller is a "my knees already hurt and I'm not even 30 yet" compromise. He's already starting to tone down his flying, both because he's probably feeling it, and also perhaps at the direction of WWE, who as most of you know had him in for a few days earlier this year. He'll probably have to come up with something else anyway, since he will have trouble putting some of the bigger WWE guys up onto his shoulders (like Punk using the Anaconda Vice as a secondary finisher).

I'm suggesting CIMA, and will mention that I think P.R. candidates deserve more of a look. I find it hard to believe Colon is the only native guy worth voting on.

Sam Fatu is one of my favorite wrestlers ever, but I was kind of just being facetious. I'll be honest though, I'd probably nominate a lot of guys if not for the digging up of the reviews.

I like Haku a lot. Shameful he has a thread but Tama/Tonga Kid/Samoan Savage/Sam Fatu does not.