DMJ

My take on Reigns' work in singles matches, which I thought was pretty exposed at Battleground, was that he is a guy that is good at HIS offense (Superman Punch, Dropkicks Around The Ring, even the Spear) but he also seems to hit them in the same sequence and with absolutely no selling of any previous damage and, unfortunately, that means his matches are getting harder and harder for me to really enjoy. I think Orton, Cena, obviously Bryan and Cesaro and Sheamus too, are just so much better (granted, they all have years more experience) at transitioning between spots and pulling them out at different times so that you end up with an actual story in a match. Reigns just seems to do nothing interesting until his opponent, at Battleground it was Cena, tells him, "Okay, now go." Then, he goes through his routine and, at the end of the it, it's done. That style *can* work and has worked for many, but in 2014, it just falls a little flat for me. For example, you know every Sheamus match is going to have a spot where he gets in those forearms to the chest outside the ropes. You know Cesaro is going to hit his toss-up European uppercut spot. You know Orton will get his elevated DDT thing. You expect to see them and you get them...except when you don't. Or you get them, but the opponent reverses them the first time. Or you get them AS a reversal to an opponent's offense. Or you get them, but because their opponent worked their arm or shoulder, they can't hit them properly. Or, most simple of all, you get them as part of a sequence of utter domination - as part of a shine or heat segment that is not going to segue into the finish at all (see Cena's use of the 5 Knuckle Shuffle in several of his matches in the past few years not against the Rock). Reigns' barrage lacks variety to me, in delivery, sequence, and as to how it fits into a larger story. That's not to say Reigns can't get better - the dude has tremendous potential. I just don't think he's ready to have to carry main events the same way I don't think Cena or Batista could in 04'. Even in 05', I felt neither guy had particularly great outings. Cena, to me, really began to shine in 06', when he seemed to finally be able to blend his style/spots/pacing with that of Edge, HHH, and RVD, instead of kind of just eating Angle and Jericho's offense for the first two-thirds of a match before going into his finish sequence.

I'm curious to hear your answer to. If Ambrose isn't, do you at least concede that the Ambrose/Rollins feud is the most over program going on? A case could be made for Steph/Bellas, but about 45 seconds after the bell rings, I think we'll be hearing crickets. Cena/Lesnar's going to get great responses, but anything involving Lesnar is almost a "ringer" at this point (kinda like anything the Rock was involved in was automatically the "A Program"). This is why Bryan was so special - his feud with Cena (to me) overshadowed Punk/Lesnar and his feud with the Authority completely overshadowed the build to Taker/Lesnar, which even just a few months removed, seems untrue...but wasn't. And if someone's going to chime in with Rusev/Swagger, one segment does not a "most over program" make. Ambrose/Rollins have been popping the crowd for weeks now, regardless of city and how "smart," "hot," "cold," "burnt out" or whatever audience they're working. I don't think Ambrose is threatening Cena as the number one merch mover or a top ratings draw yet, but I'm willing to wager that in a poll asking fans (before last night at least) what match they cared about most at SummerSlam, Rollins/Ambrose would've soundly whooped Reigns/Orton OR Reigns/Cena even, and Jericho/Wyatt or Rusev/Swagger would've barely registered.

I'm not as down on Paige as others, but her weaknesses/inexperience is noticeable. At MITB, I was very annoyed by just how much yelling and grunting she does. Its just too damn much. Last night, it wasn't as bad because it wasn't as constant...but what she was actually yelling ("C'mon, AJ!") was arguably worse than the non-descript moaning. The fact that the commentators also brought attention to how weird it was certainly didn't help matters. As for her ring work, just like AJ I think we're talking about the best of a particularly average group on the current roster. As someone else said, I'm not sure either is that much more entertaining or dependable than Alicia Fox, who may not know a dozen holds, but can deliver a Lou Thesz Press, Scissors Kick, and Hair Toss well enough that I believe in her overall character. What is a Paige? I'd also say that Naomi vs. Cameron, while not a better technical match, was more enjoyable to me. The story was more straight-up (why should it be complicated?), Naomi looked like she was laying into Cameron much more, and the finish made me want to see a rematch. AJ/Paige certainly didn't accomplish that.

While I wasn't as down on the Jericho/Wyatt match as others (I thought it started off sloppy, but then got better as it went along), I wholeheartedly agree in the finish being a bad idea if they want Wyatt to still be a major consideration going forward. I can understand that Wyatt beating Jericho here would've been "predictable" considering Jericho's reputation for putting over talents, but why not end it with a DQ of some sort? Or even some sort of cool storyline-progressing bullshit like Jericho "getting crazy" and mercilessly attacking Wyatt with a weapon, only for the audience to almost turn on Jericho, who has "gone too far"? I'm not saying it needs to lead to a Wyatt face turn, but for the sake of a short-term storyline, why not play with the fans' minds? As Jericho is not a longterm priority, he'd be perfect for the role that Cena simply can't play. As for the tag match - I liked it too, especially the near falls in the end. I'm not sure where they should go with the Usos, but I do believe there is money in an eventual Wyatt split with Rowan and Harper coming to blows. Did anyone else also think that last night was arguably the first time the Usos' individuality came out? Honestly, before last night, I thought they were really interchangeable, but that match did a lot to make me think that they could eventually be singles talents in their own right. As crazy as it sounds, maybe they need to add new blood to the group? A Sister Abigail character to inspire them to more twisted acts? At this rate, though, I just don't "get" why the Wyatts haven't bulldozed through more opponents. Like Cesaro's post-Mania booking, it is just been head-scratchingly bad despite their matches being generally engaging and crowd-pleasing.

I recently read a report that the WWE's most recent show at Madison Square Garden sold 12,000 tickets. That is well under capacity (which I believe is 18k+). Is this typical for a summer show at MSG? If you live in the area, why did you or did you not attend? Is this very bad news, somewhat bad news, or "average" news? Was there another major event, sporting or otherwise, that might have played into the seemingly low attendance? I'm just curious about the relative weight of this type of attendance figure compared to prior years. From what I saw, this was definitely the "A" show, featuring Cena, Orton, Wyatt, and Jericho, as well as, I believe, Flair and Triple H.

Underrated - I'm gonna go with Christian, only because I think I'd put him up there with Goldust as one of those guys that quietly snuck back into the Top 5 Workers in the WWE when he came back in 09' and proceeded to just be consistently good-to-great. I used to say this about Matt Hardy in 07'-08', but with Christian it may even be more of the truth: "He may not give you the best match of the show, but he'll never give you the worst match of any show." Heel or face, Christian could be relied upon to give you a really good TV match and get the crowd into it no matter who he was facing. That sort of consistency and ability to connect with the audience is something I'd argue very few were able to maintain for the same duration as Christian did, even if he was generally a midcard guy. Overrated - Maybe not around these parts, but I'm going to go with Triple H. Any time I see his name in a "Top 10" of anything, whether its in-ring work or mic skills or finishers, it pains me. I'm not going to say he's terrible because he isn't, but there are just so many North American workers that have entertained me more that I really can't get behind calling him much more than a B+ player.

In 1993, the Four Horsemen reunited - though, they weren't the original Four Horsemen and, based on the limited footage I've seen, aside from being there for the actual "reunion," Ole Anderson wasn't really around too much (though, his voice would make a legendary appearance at August's Clash of the Champions). The Horsemen then were Flair, "The Enforcer" Arn Anderson, and the newest recruit to the legendary stable, "Pretty" Paul Roma. As most of you know, Roma's run with the Horsemen was far from a success with many citing him as the worst Horseman of all time. Whether or not that is true may be its own discussion, but let's at least agree that WCW might have made a better choice considering they felt it 100% necessary to reform the group anyway. So...if not Roma, then who? I'll spitball a few names, feel free to discuss their merits or non-merits: Marcus Bagwell - Young, still pretty green, but recognizable to WCW fans. Probably would've flopped, but a heel turn like that could've also propelled him up the ladder. If Roma was a poor choice, I'm willing to say Bagwell would be just as poor...but not necessarily any worse. One of the Hollywood Blondes - Storyline wise, this wouldn't have made sense and this would've meant turning them face (in the short term), which would've been bad for either guy. Still, worth mentioning and, in-ring, both were better than Roma at the time. Tom Zenk - I don't think there's any universe where Zenk was going to be a huge mega-star...but compared to the names already listed above, he's the only one who had the three qualities I mentioned: more in-ring experience than Bagwell, was already a babyface unlike the Blondes, and was recognizable/decently popular with the WCW fanbase unlike Roma. Unfortunately, him joining the Horsemen would've had very little impact. Erik Watts - No. Kevin "Vinnie Vegas" Nash - As crazy as it sounds, after looking at WCW's roster in 93', this name jumps out at me. In a sense, if you can't get Tully back, why not go the opposite way and bring in a monster who at least looks imposing? Repackaging Vegas would've taken some work and, to be sure, Paul Roma was a much better in-ring performer than Nash back then (arguably ever), but Nash would eventually prove to be a very charismatic personality. He might be the most intriguing choice simply because of how this might've not only changed his career trajectory, but also added another element to the nWo storyline. I'm curious to hear what other people think, especially those of you who were WCW fans at the time and may come in with some names that were available on the indies that would've been perfect...

I just watched the Ironman Match for Beach Blast 93' for the first time and thoroughly disliked it (based on other reviews I've read, I'm not alone). It just seems to me, if you break it up into 5 minute segments, the segments are almost out of order. I also expected better, considering how highly I thought of both guys work around this time and have enjoyed rewatching their matches in my journey through 90s WCW. Then, I found this on Scott Keith's Blog of Doom site, it is his review of the match from way back when: --------------------------------------------------------- - US Title match, Ironman challenge: Dustin Rhodes v. Rick Rude. Most falls in 30 minutes wins. This was a horrible feud as Rhodes was pushed to US title status on the strength of nothing but his father's position as Executive Producer (ie booker) of WCW. The US title was held up for months as these two battled in boring matches over the belt, and the title was devalued immensely because of it. (Not as much as Santino has devalued it.) It never really recovered, IMO. Rude wins the first fall, Rhodes wins the second. The rest is utterly slow and boring until the big finish where Rhodes hits all of his stuff and Rude keeps kicking out. Time expires, so it's a screwjob ending on top of everything else and the belt is vacant another couple of months. *1/2 This is why overtime in the Michaels-Hart match at WM12 was a *good thing* (I…wouldn’t go that far.) --------------------------------------------------------- Here is my question/thoughts - Was the genuine feeling that Dustin was getting a US Title storyline because of nepotism or because he and Barry Windham had had a pretty good run as a tag team in 92' and Dustin was getting good pops whenever he went up against guys like Vader, Rude, Orndorff, or one of the Hollywood Blonds? Seems to me that saying that Dustin was getting pushed for "nothing more than the strength of his father's position" is ridiculous. I was 9 when this happened, so, back then, I wouldn't have known, but I always thought Rhodes' climbing up the ladder made sense (kinda like Marcus Bagwell challenging for the TV Title after winning Rookie of the Year in WCW Magazine - it was kayfabe credible). So, is Keith too harsh on Rhodes' push? On the feud in general? On the match and its finish?

I know not all talents below are considered great workers, but in this fictional universe, where Cena doesn't exist and Orton may or may not have lasted, I do think certain guys might have gotten additional chances to be stars, namely: - Ken Kennedy: Poised to be a big deal and pushed pretty hard at times. Who knows what his ceiling was had he not fallen victim to his own "demons" and rumored heat with Orton and Cena. - MVP: Another guy that seemed poised for a main event push at some point that just never materialized. Without Cena, there's less of a "hump" for him to get over? - Shelton Benjamin: I'm not sure he was ever going to get higher than the midcard, but as the OP wondered, does a lack of top talent mean that midcard talent gets more opportunities and less "comedy-based" storylines? It is a huge stretch, but I just wanted to ask, does "No Shelton's Mama = Serious Shelton Heel Run"? I don't think so, but how would this apply to others? - Christian: Obviously Edge's career wasn't hurt at all with Cena at the top, but how would Christian's be different? Does he go to TNA? - More RVD main events? More Booker T title reigns?

As someone who attended SummerSlam 96', I definitely recall the magazine prior to that show hyping Ahmed/Owen AND an Ultimate Warrior match that never happened. I always liked the Vic Venom columns, too, but I was also 12 and for whatever reason believed his "inside scoops" were 100% accurate predictions of what was going to happen in the upcoming months, even the outrageous stuff about a "certain former WWF Champion coming back to RUN WILD, BROTHER!"

Finkel #1, GMC #2 for me, but what I really wanted to add to this conversation was a quick nod to Hank Hudson. Hank Hudson is the ring announcer for Absolute Intense Wrestling, Cleveland's major indy fed, and, prior to that, was the ring announcer for Cleveland All-Pro Wrestling, which ran for many years under the guidance of local trainer, JT Lightning. I've been to lots of shows of over the years and seen many talents, famous and unknown, indie darlings and household names, but Hank Hudson might still be the most over guy in that ring on any given show. Is this similar in most indies - where the ring announcer might be the only guy thats been around year-after-year?

Current Favorite Wrestler To Watch: Dean Ambrose Last Fun Match You Saw: MITB Briefcase Match Wrestler You Want To See More Of: Luke Harper Last Live Show Attended: Absolution 9, I think? Match You Are Looking Forward To Watching Soon The Most: Dean Ambrose vs. Seth Rollins Last Fun Interview/Promo You Saw: Dean Ambrose on RAW 2 weeks ago Last Interesting Thing You Read About Wrestling: Emma's mugshot Last Worthwhile Wrestling Podcast You Heard: Marc Maron Podcast w/ CM Punk (though, I do enjoy JRs, Austins, Jerichos, Colts, and the LAW too) Most Fun You've Had Watching Wrestling Lately: WrestleMania 30 Party

I can see why the Dinsmore comparison might not be apt. You're right, Dinsmore was over. I guess I just think Emma would've had a better chance of getting over if she hadn't been paired with a character that is not only 1-dimensional goof character but, and here's a key word I forgot in my previous rambling, stale.

^ Court Bauer had the same thought on the LAW podcast this week. I'm not 100% ready to say Swagger's stock will rise based on one week, but I've gone hot & cold with him over the years, so, my take on him is not to be trusted. For example, I thought he was great in ECW, had some really good matches with Bourne and Christian and Cena (on an episode of RAW sometime), then thought he was lackluster on SD and RAW leading up to WM29, and, most recently, thought he simply paled in comparison to Cesaro (most would) which made him look like a very weak link in the Real Americans. As for Emma - I place the blame squarely on the writers/bookers who teamed her with Santino. I get it - Santino is over because the kids still cheer him and he uses Mr. Socko and its cute. But the older crowd views him as a piss break character and everything he's done is pure time filler. I compare it to if you had had Cesaro debut as "Evad" Sullivan. I don't care how good a worker you are, that gimmick is just absolutely not to be taken seriously (also see Nick Dinsmore). I know, I know - a great worker will overcome a bad gimmick - but at least Natalya got a few impressive victories as a real competitor before her gimmick was that she had irritable bowel syndrome. Emma debuted as the goofy, annoying ditz girlfriend of a goofy, annoying idiot "wrestler." She could wrestle like a reincarnated Chris Benoit and the adjectives used to describe her character would still be stupid, goofy, annoying. Hit the reset button on her and give her a chance on Superstars or SD without Santino's dead weight under a "no frills" plucky, spirited underdog and see if she has enough natural charisma to go from there. If it works, like it did in NXT, you have something special. If not, at least it won't be because they put her in a position to fail.

They can push Reigns all they want, have him beat the very best, hell, he can main event WrestleMania 31... But I predict he'll end up the "Batista" to Ambrose's "Cena." At WrestleMania 21, Batista wrestled in the main event. Batista beat the more established World Champion. Batista won the Rumble. I think its safe to say that while they viewed Cena as a huge star for the future, Batista got just a tad more spotlight in the years leading up to their first World title wins. But the fans, as much as they cheered the Animal, didn't want to BE the Animal. They didn't want to have a beer with the Animal. They didn't say "Hey, the Animal is just like me." They looked at the cocky rapper guy in the street clothes and Nikes and did want and say those things. That's the difference between Ambrose and everyone else right now. Ambrose is intensely cool. He's the guy that takes no shit and, though he may get his head stomped in every night, he's still cool - he's still not going to quit - he's still "unbeatable." Roman Reigns has a better physique, the granite jaw, probably gets along well with management and is an all-around good person who can charm any woman he wants with just a smile...but how many wrestling fans view themselves that way? How many wrestling fans view their friends that way? Compare that to the dangerous cool and "outsiderness" of Ambrose, the redneck-by-way-of-Cincinasty attitude and the WWE would have to be blind not to see who has breakout potential and who is just going to end up the next Batista/Orton/"guy who fights the guy who makes money."

I don't think I'm going to hit them all but someone can (and should) fill in the ones I'm missing. Also, I think most people here will agree that many of these are not "great" angles, but they're at least memorable and, subjectively, I think someone - somewhere - thought they had potential to be "great": Hulk Hogan - Andre grabbing the cross from his chest in build-up to WM3 - Twin Ref Angle w/ Andre and DiBiase - Zeus attacks Hogan on Saturday Night's Main Event - Hogan carrying Liz to the back during Mega Powers Explode build - Earthquake breaking Hogan's ribs - Hogan getting pulled out of the 91' Rumble by Sid (en route to Flair winning the title) - Undertaker grabbing the cross from his chest in build up to Survivor Series 91' - WrestleMania 9 Finish (many will say this was an awful angle, but its certainly memorable) - Heel turn at Bash at the Beach 96' - Roddy Piper returns at Halloween Havoc (?) to confront Hollywood Hogan - Ultimate Warrior returns on Nitro to confront Hollywood Hogan - Fingerpoke of Doom w/ Kevin Nash - Shawn Michaels turns heel by superkicking Hogan on RAW - Hulk Hogan returns to WWE as the masked Mr. America Again, not sure how many of these count as even "angles" let alone "great angles," but tried to at least help out. Great thread!

I think his message has been pretty clear - he's madman trying to "take over the world" through terror and violence via his cult of brainwashed hillbillies. Does this explain everything? No, but I'm not sure what else needs to be explained or if he needs to come out and say this directly as his actions have made this clear (to me at least). I don't expect we'll get more backstory or much "shading in" of his character in a PG WWE as, compared to the Kane origin story, for example, I agree with Dylan that the WWE is purposefully keeping things somewhat vague regarding the details of how Bray brainwashes people, how he came to be, etc.

This name came to mind first as well, but then, the more I thought about it, I think Ricky Morton was just that good of a FIP that he could've tagged in Kevin "The Prisoner" Wacholz and the roof would've blown off the arena. To me (and I'm not going as far as to say the latter is better than the former), but Gibson was as good as "hot tag" as Kane was for Daniel Bryan when he was the FIP (or X-Pac for that matter in the mid-90s). Kane and Gibson both got huge pops when they would come in and save the day, but, to me, that has more to do with the FIP than what they were doing (which is not the same as the way Ultimate Warrior or Daniel Bryan would come in, explode, and essentially steal the match with their spirited performance).

I watched this match not knowing about Z-Man taking Douglas' place or even being aware of the Dos Hombres storyline. With that in mind, I thought this was a fun match with Austin as the clear MVP. Him flying into the cage multiple times is great and I love the finish - whether or not it was a gaffe, the fact that the bell rang for a close nearfall added to the chaos in the closing minute. What his intention, whether Steamboat took off the mask because he wanted to make it clear he was not doing the job (as a poster said above) or he just wanted to make sure the spot would make sense on a highlight reel down the line, the effect is the same one and it is glorious: the crowd popped big for the reveal and his crossbody off the top is perfectly executed.

The line between "Mr. McMahon" and Vince McMahon has been crossed and re-crossed so many times, I'm going to confidently say we have not seen the last of Vince McMahon on Monday Night RAW, let alone all of WWE TV productions. Will he wrestle again? Probably not...but I could easily seem him making an appearance on whatever the next big milestone RAW is (I've lost count).

^ Great point about what Eaton could've imparted onto Benoit, but I think, even here, it is obvious that Benoit was a super serious worker and wanted nothing to do with that whole "entertainment" side of sports-entertainment. I also agree that, at this point, Bagwell was very serviceable and almost seems eager to bump for whoever he's in the ring with - whether its a relative no name (at the time) like Benoit or a true veteran like Eaton, Bagwell wanted to make the other guy look good. He's an example of a guy that I think gets a bad rep for being cocky/arrogant/prima donna when, really, that was his gimmick and, in the end, he might've played it too convincingly (if you've heard his most recent podcast interviews, he says as much about his time in WWE). Also, again, that finishing move looks absolutely nasty.

Recently, I'd say Daniel Bryan was about as good a "hot tag" guy as anyone from the glory days of southern tags. He was so good at it, I think it was one of the most important ingrediants into his ascension to the top of the card. Whether its at Dustin Rhodes in the early 90s or Goldust today, he definitely knows what makes a tag "hot." I'd also submit Shane Douglas into the conversation based on what I've seen of his tag work with Steamboat in WCW. Finally, I'd say Jim Neidhart too. I definitely haven't seen enough to say who the best is/was, but I'm curious who else people would think make a list of top 20.

That's a palm-to-the-face slip from Meltz. "Likely"? Did he follow-it up about the 20th anniversary of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman's deaths "likely" at the hands of OJ Simpson? Or that the sky is "likely" blue? That quote has me legit laughing.

I agree. A 3-4 month sabbatical for Orton would be awesome. He could ostensibly come back as heel or face and get a huge reaction. Hell, if this were to happen, it could reasonably lead to an Orton/HHH match that people would genuinely look forward to. But, as goc pointed out, the WWE doesn't know how to book a return properly. This is the company that had Brock Lesnar lose his first match back and then split wins and losses with Triple H. This is the company that spent months promoting Fandango, had him beat a former World Champion at WrestleMania, then ran out of storyline ideas for him by June. Their longterm booking is so laughably poor, CM Punk could come back next week and, by SummerSlam, they'd probably have him feuding with Kane or Del Rio.

I have never been a big fan of strap matches so, to be honest, I've kind of avoided watching/re-watching many of them, especially the ones in the WWE that I'm most familiar with (Austin/Vega and HHH/Rock spring to mind), but I watched this today and thought it was quite good. After watching 3 Sting/Vader matches from WCW PPV 92'-93', I'd rank them this way: 1) Starrcade 92' - This has found its way into my Top 10 matches ever. 2) Great American Bash 92' - Loved the finish and felt like it was indecisive enough to make it clear these two were only getting started. 3) SuperBrawl III - It might just be that the 9 year old kid in me came out while I was watching and just wanted to see Sting win, but I can see myself putting this at number two after I finish crying. As others pointed out, SBIII had several good-to-great matches (for example, Orndorff vs. Jack is really fun, but boy did I hate the finish), but it also had some real letdowns (underutilized Flair, Windham/Muta). The ending of this match obviously sends the fans home a little unhappy, but its still a good show to watch on the Network with the aid of hindsight and fast forward.