DMJ

In 1993, the Four Horsemen reunited - though, they weren't the original Four Horsemen and, based on the limited footage I've seen, aside from being there for the actual "reunion," Ole Anderson wasn't really around too much (though, his voice would make a legendary appearance at August's Clash of the Champions). The Horsemen then were Flair, "The Enforcer" Arn Anderson, and the newest recruit to the legendary stable, "Pretty" Paul Roma. As most of you know, Roma's run with the Horsemen was far from a success with many citing him as the worst Horseman of all time. Whether or not that is true may be its own discussion, but let's at least agree that WCW might have made a better choice considering they felt it 100% necessary to reform the group anyway. So...if not Roma, then who? I'll spitball a few names, feel free to discuss their merits or non-merits: Marcus Bagwell - Young, still pretty green, but recognizable to WCW fans. Probably would've flopped, but a heel turn like that could've also propelled him up the ladder. If Roma was a poor choice, I'm willing to say Bagwell would be just as poor...but not necessarily any worse. One of the Hollywood Blondes - Storyline wise, this wouldn't have made sense and this would've meant turning them face (in the short term), which would've been bad for either guy. Still, worth mentioning and, in-ring, both were better than Roma at the time. Tom Zenk - I don't think there's any universe where Zenk was going to be a huge mega-star...but compared to the names already listed above, he's the only one who had the three qualities I mentioned: more in-ring experience than Bagwell, was already a babyface unlike the Blondes, and was recognizable/decently popular with the WCW fanbase unlike Roma. Unfortunately, him joining the Horsemen would've had very little impact. Erik Watts - No. Kevin "Vinnie Vegas" Nash - As crazy as it sounds, after looking at WCW's roster in 93', this name jumps out at me. In a sense, if you can't get Tully back, why not go the opposite way and bring in a monster who at least looks imposing? Repackaging Vegas would've taken some work and, to be sure, Paul Roma was a much better in-ring performer than Nash back then (arguably ever), but Nash would eventually prove to be a very charismatic personality. He might be the most intriguing choice simply because of how this might've not only changed his career trajectory, but also added another element to the nWo storyline. I'm curious to hear what other people think, especially those of you who were WCW fans at the time and may come in with some names that were available on the indies that would've been perfect...

I just watched the Ironman Match for Beach Blast 93' for the first time and thoroughly disliked it (based on other reviews I've read, I'm not alone). It just seems to me, if you break it up into 5 minute segments, the segments are almost out of order. I also expected better, considering how highly I thought of both guys work around this time and have enjoyed rewatching their matches in my journey through 90s WCW. Then, I found this on Scott Keith's Blog of Doom site, it is his review of the match from way back when: --------------------------------------------------------- - US Title match, Ironman challenge: Dustin Rhodes v. Rick Rude. Most falls in 30 minutes wins. This was a horrible feud as Rhodes was pushed to US title status on the strength of nothing but his father's position as Executive Producer (ie booker) of WCW. The US title was held up for months as these two battled in boring matches over the belt, and the title was devalued immensely because of it. (Not as much as Santino has devalued it.) It never really recovered, IMO. Rude wins the first fall, Rhodes wins the second. The rest is utterly slow and boring until the big finish where Rhodes hits all of his stuff and Rude keeps kicking out. Time expires, so it's a screwjob ending on top of everything else and the belt is vacant another couple of months. *1/2 This is why overtime in the Michaels-Hart match at WM12 was a *good thing* (I…wouldn’t go that far.) --------------------------------------------------------- Here is my question/thoughts - Was the genuine feeling that Dustin was getting a US Title storyline because of nepotism or because he and Barry Windham had had a pretty good run as a tag team in 92' and Dustin was getting good pops whenever he went up against guys like Vader, Rude, Orndorff, or one of the Hollywood Blonds? Seems to me that saying that Dustin was getting pushed for "nothing more than the strength of his father's position" is ridiculous. I was 9 when this happened, so, back then, I wouldn't have known, but I always thought Rhodes' climbing up the ladder made sense (kinda like Marcus Bagwell challenging for the TV Title after winning Rookie of the Year in WCW Magazine - it was kayfabe credible). So, is Keith too harsh on Rhodes' push? On the feud in general? On the match and its finish?

I know not all talents below are considered great workers, but in this fictional universe, where Cena doesn't exist and Orton may or may not have lasted, I do think certain guys might have gotten additional chances to be stars, namely: - Ken Kennedy: Poised to be a big deal and pushed pretty hard at times. Who knows what his ceiling was had he not fallen victim to his own "demons" and rumored heat with Orton and Cena. - MVP: Another guy that seemed poised for a main event push at some point that just never materialized. Without Cena, there's less of a "hump" for him to get over? - Shelton Benjamin: I'm not sure he was ever going to get higher than the midcard, but as the OP wondered, does a lack of top talent mean that midcard talent gets more opportunities and less "comedy-based" storylines? It is a huge stretch, but I just wanted to ask, does "No Shelton's Mama = Serious Shelton Heel Run"? I don't think so, but how would this apply to others? - Christian: Obviously Edge's career wasn't hurt at all with Cena at the top, but how would Christian's be different? Does he go to TNA? - More RVD main events? More Booker T title reigns?

As someone who attended SummerSlam 96', I definitely recall the magazine prior to that show hyping Ahmed/Owen AND an Ultimate Warrior match that never happened. I always liked the Vic Venom columns, too, but I was also 12 and for whatever reason believed his "inside scoops" were 100% accurate predictions of what was going to happen in the upcoming months, even the outrageous stuff about a "certain former WWF Champion coming back to RUN WILD, BROTHER!"

Finkel #1, GMC #2 for me, but what I really wanted to add to this conversation was a quick nod to Hank Hudson. Hank Hudson is the ring announcer for Absolute Intense Wrestling, Cleveland's major indy fed, and, prior to that, was the ring announcer for Cleveland All-Pro Wrestling, which ran for many years under the guidance of local trainer, JT Lightning. I've been to lots of shows of over the years and seen many talents, famous and unknown, indie darlings and household names, but Hank Hudson might still be the most over guy in that ring on any given show. Is this similar in most indies - where the ring announcer might be the only guy thats been around year-after-year?

Current Favorite Wrestler To Watch: Dean Ambrose Last Fun Match You Saw: MITB Briefcase Match Wrestler You Want To See More Of: Luke Harper Last Live Show Attended: Absolution 9, I think? Match You Are Looking Forward To Watching Soon The Most: Dean Ambrose vs. Seth Rollins Last Fun Interview/Promo You Saw: Dean Ambrose on RAW 2 weeks ago Last Interesting Thing You Read About Wrestling: Emma's mugshot Last Worthwhile Wrestling Podcast You Heard: Marc Maron Podcast w/ CM Punk (though, I do enjoy JRs, Austins, Jerichos, Colts, and the LAW too) Most Fun You've Had Watching Wrestling Lately: WrestleMania 30 Party

I can see why the Dinsmore comparison might not be apt. You're right, Dinsmore was over. I guess I just think Emma would've had a better chance of getting over if she hadn't been paired with a character that is not only 1-dimensional goof character but, and here's a key word I forgot in my previous rambling, stale.

^ Court Bauer had the same thought on the LAW podcast this week. I'm not 100% ready to say Swagger's stock will rise based on one week, but I've gone hot & cold with him over the years, so, my take on him is not to be trusted. For example, I thought he was great in ECW, had some really good matches with Bourne and Christian and Cena (on an episode of RAW sometime), then thought he was lackluster on SD and RAW leading up to WM29, and, most recently, thought he simply paled in comparison to Cesaro (most would) which made him look like a very weak link in the Real Americans. As for Emma - I place the blame squarely on the writers/bookers who teamed her with Santino. I get it - Santino is over because the kids still cheer him and he uses Mr. Socko and its cute. But the older crowd views him as a piss break character and everything he's done is pure time filler. I compare it to if you had had Cesaro debut as "Evad" Sullivan. I don't care how good a worker you are, that gimmick is just absolutely not to be taken seriously (also see Nick Dinsmore). I know, I know - a great worker will overcome a bad gimmick - but at least Natalya got a few impressive victories as a real competitor before her gimmick was that she had irritable bowel syndrome. Emma debuted as the goofy, annoying ditz girlfriend of a goofy, annoying idiot "wrestler." She could wrestle like a reincarnated Chris Benoit and the adjectives used to describe her character would still be stupid, goofy, annoying. Hit the reset button on her and give her a chance on Superstars or SD without Santino's dead weight under a "no frills" plucky, spirited underdog and see if she has enough natural charisma to go from there. If it works, like it did in NXT, you have something special. If not, at least it won't be because they put her in a position to fail.

They can push Reigns all they want, have him beat the very best, hell, he can main event WrestleMania 31... But I predict he'll end up the "Batista" to Ambrose's "Cena." At WrestleMania 21, Batista wrestled in the main event. Batista beat the more established World Champion. Batista won the Rumble. I think its safe to say that while they viewed Cena as a huge star for the future, Batista got just a tad more spotlight in the years leading up to their first World title wins. But the fans, as much as they cheered the Animal, didn't want to BE the Animal. They didn't want to have a beer with the Animal. They didn't say "Hey, the Animal is just like me." They looked at the cocky rapper guy in the street clothes and Nikes and did want and say those things. That's the difference between Ambrose and everyone else right now. Ambrose is intensely cool. He's the guy that takes no shit and, though he may get his head stomped in every night, he's still cool - he's still not going to quit - he's still "unbeatable." Roman Reigns has a better physique, the granite jaw, probably gets along well with management and is an all-around good person who can charm any woman he wants with just a smile...but how many wrestling fans view themselves that way? How many wrestling fans view their friends that way? Compare that to the dangerous cool and "outsiderness" of Ambrose, the redneck-by-way-of-Cincinasty attitude and the WWE would have to be blind not to see who has breakout potential and who is just going to end up the next Batista/Orton/"guy who fights the guy who makes money."

I don't think I'm going to hit them all but someone can (and should) fill in the ones I'm missing. Also, I think most people here will agree that many of these are not "great" angles, but they're at least memorable and, subjectively, I think someone - somewhere - thought they had potential to be "great": Hulk Hogan - Andre grabbing the cross from his chest in build-up to WM3 - Twin Ref Angle w/ Andre and DiBiase - Zeus attacks Hogan on Saturday Night's Main Event - Hogan carrying Liz to the back during Mega Powers Explode build - Earthquake breaking Hogan's ribs - Hogan getting pulled out of the 91' Rumble by Sid (en route to Flair winning the title) - Undertaker grabbing the cross from his chest in build up to Survivor Series 91' - WrestleMania 9 Finish (many will say this was an awful angle, but its certainly memorable) - Heel turn at Bash at the Beach 96' - Roddy Piper returns at Halloween Havoc (?) to confront Hollywood Hogan - Ultimate Warrior returns on Nitro to confront Hollywood Hogan - Fingerpoke of Doom w/ Kevin Nash - Shawn Michaels turns heel by superkicking Hogan on RAW - Hulk Hogan returns to WWE as the masked Mr. America Again, not sure how many of these count as even "angles" let alone "great angles," but tried to at least help out. Great thread!

I think his message has been pretty clear - he's madman trying to "take over the world" through terror and violence via his cult of brainwashed hillbillies. Does this explain everything? No, but I'm not sure what else needs to be explained or if he needs to come out and say this directly as his actions have made this clear (to me at least). I don't expect we'll get more backstory or much "shading in" of his character in a PG WWE as, compared to the Kane origin story, for example, I agree with Dylan that the WWE is purposefully keeping things somewhat vague regarding the details of how Bray brainwashes people, how he came to be, etc.

This name came to mind first as well, but then, the more I thought about it, I think Ricky Morton was just that good of a FIP that he could've tagged in Kevin "The Prisoner" Wacholz and the roof would've blown off the arena. To me (and I'm not going as far as to say the latter is better than the former), but Gibson was as good as "hot tag" as Kane was for Daniel Bryan when he was the FIP (or X-Pac for that matter in the mid-90s). Kane and Gibson both got huge pops when they would come in and save the day, but, to me, that has more to do with the FIP than what they were doing (which is not the same as the way Ultimate Warrior or Daniel Bryan would come in, explode, and essentially steal the match with their spirited performance).

I watched this match not knowing about Z-Man taking Douglas' place or even being aware of the Dos Hombres storyline. With that in mind, I thought this was a fun match with Austin as the clear MVP. Him flying into the cage multiple times is great and I love the finish - whether or not it was a gaffe, the fact that the bell rang for a close nearfall added to the chaos in the closing minute. What his intention, whether Steamboat took off the mask because he wanted to make it clear he was not doing the job (as a poster said above) or he just wanted to make sure the spot would make sense on a highlight reel down the line, the effect is the same one and it is glorious: the crowd popped big for the reveal and his crossbody off the top is perfectly executed.

The line between "Mr. McMahon" and Vince McMahon has been crossed and re-crossed so many times, I'm going to confidently say we have not seen the last of Vince McMahon on Monday Night RAW, let alone all of WWE TV productions. Will he wrestle again? Probably not...but I could easily seem him making an appearance on whatever the next big milestone RAW is (I've lost count).

^ Great point about what Eaton could've imparted onto Benoit, but I think, even here, it is obvious that Benoit was a super serious worker and wanted nothing to do with that whole "entertainment" side of sports-entertainment. I also agree that, at this point, Bagwell was very serviceable and almost seems eager to bump for whoever he's in the ring with - whether its a relative no name (at the time) like Benoit or a true veteran like Eaton, Bagwell wanted to make the other guy look good. He's an example of a guy that I think gets a bad rep for being cocky/arrogant/prima donna when, really, that was his gimmick and, in the end, he might've played it too convincingly (if you've heard his most recent podcast interviews, he says as much about his time in WWE). Also, again, that finishing move looks absolutely nasty.

Recently, I'd say Daniel Bryan was about as good a "hot tag" guy as anyone from the glory days of southern tags. He was so good at it, I think it was one of the most important ingrediants into his ascension to the top of the card. Whether its at Dustin Rhodes in the early 90s or Goldust today, he definitely knows what makes a tag "hot." I'd also submit Shane Douglas into the conversation based on what I've seen of his tag work with Steamboat in WCW. Finally, I'd say Jim Neidhart too. I definitely haven't seen enough to say who the best is/was, but I'm curious who else people would think make a list of top 20.

That's a palm-to-the-face slip from Meltz. "Likely"? Did he follow-it up about the 20th anniversary of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman's deaths "likely" at the hands of OJ Simpson? Or that the sky is "likely" blue? That quote has me legit laughing.

I agree. A 3-4 month sabbatical for Orton would be awesome. He could ostensibly come back as heel or face and get a huge reaction. Hell, if this were to happen, it could reasonably lead to an Orton/HHH match that people would genuinely look forward to. But, as goc pointed out, the WWE doesn't know how to book a return properly. This is the company that had Brock Lesnar lose his first match back and then split wins and losses with Triple H. This is the company that spent months promoting Fandango, had him beat a former World Champion at WrestleMania, then ran out of storyline ideas for him by June. Their longterm booking is so laughably poor, CM Punk could come back next week and, by SummerSlam, they'd probably have him feuding with Kane or Del Rio.

I have never been a big fan of strap matches so, to be honest, I've kind of avoided watching/re-watching many of them, especially the ones in the WWE that I'm most familiar with (Austin/Vega and HHH/Rock spring to mind), but I watched this today and thought it was quite good. After watching 3 Sting/Vader matches from WCW PPV 92'-93', I'd rank them this way: 1) Starrcade 92' - This has found its way into my Top 10 matches ever. 2) Great American Bash 92' - Loved the finish and felt like it was indecisive enough to make it clear these two were only getting started. 3) SuperBrawl III - It might just be that the 9 year old kid in me came out while I was watching and just wanted to see Sting win, but I can see myself putting this at number two after I finish crying. As others pointed out, SBIII had several good-to-great matches (for example, Orndorff vs. Jack is really fun, but boy did I hate the finish), but it also had some real letdowns (underutilized Flair, Windham/Muta). The ending of this match obviously sends the fans home a little unhappy, but its still a good show to watch on the Network with the aid of hindsight and fast forward.

Never saw the Brisco match...now I know I don't want to. Watched JBL/Geurrero blood bath recently and it was heinous as advertised. Never want to see that again.

I'm a Snake Plissken mark, so that new attire looks sweet to me.

Ziggler was/is a hometown guy so he always gets big responses in Cleveland. I'd say bigger than The Miz ever gets too.

To get hot again, the WWE needs a mega-star on the level of Hogan in the 80s or Austin and The Rock. A character that people simply can't get enough of. Another Cena or Lesnar won't help - I'm talking about somebody that is so beloved, charismatic, and "must see" that ratings spike by a million viewers every time he is in a segment. Somebody with mainstream appeal AND at least a modicum of wrestling/athletic ability that casual fans and hardcore fans can agree about his greatness or, at the very least, begrudgingly respect his abilities as a performer in and out of the ring (you don't sell out arenas for years with 1-star matches, no matter what workrate nerds think of The Rock or Hogan's wrestling ability or how much Steve Austin "fell off" after SummerSlam 97'). Someone so entertaining that not even the WWE's terrible booking and creative writers could hurt him. Sorry D-Bry fans, they also need to be marketable in the sense that when they appear on Fallon, they are larger-than-life, if not in size than at least in some sort of character way (think Savage on Arsenio or how Austin's look said "bad ass" even in a black tee and blue jeans). I'm not sure this person exists, but I'd kind of love it to be Dean Ambrose, who has been compared to Roddy Piper before. To me, though, that goes back to my first point - I'm not sure the next Roddy Piper is enough to make things hot again. I think you need Hogan and I'm not sure anyone, even a personal favorite of mine like Ambrose, is him.

Just saw this match for the first time and I enjoyed the hell out of it. I must admit to thinking that Steamboat and Douglas was an odd pairing at first, just because Steamboat was so experienced and so beloved and, when they started teaming, Douglas was kind of the opposite - not a bad worker, not unpopular, but obviously not a star like Steamboat. As I've seen more of their work, I've been super impressed by Douglas and now know why Austin (on his podcast) called Douglas one of his favorite babyfaces to work with. I'd cite the finish of this match as the perfect example of the "good kind of disappointment." Sure, a match this good would benefit from a clean ending (which would make it a MOTYC in my admittedly limited view), but instead, you get a DQ that leaves the audience clamoring for more. You just know that everyone leaving that arena, Thundercage or not, was talking about this match and what was going to happen to the tag belts. When's the last time that happened in today's WWE? Sometime in the 90s *maybe*?

I don't think 06' holds up match-for-match, but I will say this about it - I think the stretch from WM21 through SummerSlam 06' (roughly 16 months) was one of the funnest times to ever be a fan and that what hurts 06' most is that things really petered out after that PPV. Prior to SummerSlam, though, I absolutely loved ONS II and was really excited by the potential of the return of ECW (for example, the debut of CM Punk). In that same time frame you had the debut of Umaga, Extreme Big Show, Edge's rise to the main event, the return of Jeff Hardy, the Foley/Flair feud, and Michaels/McMahon feud. I personally disliked the DX reunion, but will admit to liking the DX vs. McMahons & Big Show cage match from this time. Again, match-for-match, I don't think 2006 should rate very highly and I do think part of my enjoyment of 06' was based on my interest picking up considerably due to Hogan/Michaels at SS05' and Eddie's death that fall, but when the WWE ran a campaign about how the "Power" was back "On," I think they were right. There was so much crazy stuff going on in that 05'-06' stretch that it made being a fan almost as cool as it was during the Attitude Era, even if the in-ring stuff was comparatively lame.