cheapshot

Also interesting were current HOF members who didn't score highly in the model: Very interesting, thanks for taking the time do this though. You may have incorrect data if you look at the MX - you have listed them including Buddy Roberts, as you know, was in the Freebirds. Not sure if it's a typo or will scew your data.

He never won any gold in WWF, but he got to #71 in the UK Singles charts with the masterpiece "USA" in 1993. He never achieved musical success like that again.

From today's Observer update:

I think this is a very valid point, and one I have just asked Dave about via Twitter.

How are their cases at all similar? No one is crediting Bryan with any period as a company's ace but rather an incredibly long and sustained period of work. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that Tanahashi's candidacy and election this year was solely due to his work but rather his work in tandem with his run on top and impact on business, primarily over the last two years. Leaving aside whether you think they belong, because that is irrelevant, I don't see any way to pretend that their resumes for inclusion are remotely comparable. Tanahashi was voted in by many just for his workrate from comments I have seen, so I can see how Dylan is drawing a comparison. The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time. I heard a bit about folks commenting to that effect, but didn't see that his candidacy became one resting on work. Particularly in the pages of the WON, he was also getting significant credit for the rise of iPPV as a significant revenue stream for the company. If we're attributing the newfound love for his work to his hype there over the past couple years, I don't see see how one also dismisses his run on top for business. If I'm missing a piece of the puzzle as to how those voting in the Japan category view things, I'm definitely eager to see that. Again, I'm not looking to get into it about the merits of his candidacy. I'm a huge fan of his work in-ring, and think he probably deserves credit for being top while PPV business sees this kind of rise, but also think its premature to definitively state that today. I'm just not a fan of dismissing that aspect of his resume or dismissing his role by saying it didn't matter who's on top. With that kind of logic you can argue it doesn't ever matter who was on top. If you stretch things enough you can always point to macroeconomic and other environmental factors any outcome. I am definitely on the side of, if I had him on the ballot it would be purely for work rate alone. I may be wrong and dismissing things that may be staring others in the face, but I just don't see it, yet. I think people aren't putting enough creedence in the "brand" of NJPW rather than pin pointing an individual as someone who has a draw. I am not going to sit here and say he didn't have positive effects on the gate, he did; what I am disputing is if that should be coupled with his level of workrate as an argument as to why he has been voted in this year. I also am a massive fan of his in-ring work, and he does deserved to be heaped praise for it, I still think his induction was a few years too soon. That's just my opinion, I would never dismiss him completely as I can see his merits, but I don't feel he is the draw that people give him credit for.

Lister maybe?

To be fair though, isn't kinda how this sort of thing happens? Isn't that essentially how every wrestling star was created. It's all about being talented but also being in the right promotion at the right time with the right opponents. Yes, but being right place, right time means to me that another wrestler of similar ilk to Tanahashi could of been in the same spot for the company to of been just as profitable. Of course there is no way to prove this. We still haven't got conclusive proof that he is the main reason for the upturn in business. I looked again at Mookieghana's data and Meltzer response, and it was interesting to see that until 2012 NJ's released figures were ludicrous compared to the actual attendances. Maybe proving if he as big a draw as people say he is, can't be proved conclusively

How are their cases at all similar? No one is crediting Bryan with any period as a company's ace but rather an incredibly long and sustained period of work. I don't remember seeing anyone suggest that Tanahashi's candidacy and election this year was solely due to his work but rather his work in tandem with his run on top and impact on business, primarily over the last two years. Leaving aside whether you think they belong, because that is irrelevant, I don't see any way to pretend that their resumes for inclusion are remotely comparable. Tanahashi was voted in by many just for his workrate from comments I have seen, so I can see how Dylan is drawing a comparison. The jury is still out for me on HIS impact on NJ becoming 500% more profitable. Like others have said, right place, right time.

Murdoch was 19. Windham was 19. Race was 16/17. Looking for more examples under 16.

How many people do we know of that debuted before being 16? Off the top of my head I recall Terry Gordy, Chris Candido and Rey Jr. all debuting before hitting 16. Any others?

The crowd reaction certainly makes the Lesnar/Goldberg match at 'Mania stand out more.

The problem being, NJPW's gate's haven't been truthfully reported until the last year or so, so any comparison as a draw may be hard. I am just going off a gut feeling regarding Tanahashi > Akiyama. I think Akiyama still in AJPW in it's current state may hurt him slightly. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one really otherwise we may enter the world of a circular argument. I saw your post about this and will be interested to see the responses.

Any award given to art is based on people's perceptions. To me, art is anything that evokes a response. I am not going to kid myself and say that perception isn't a factor, of course it is. I post on here as I enjoy the debate by most people, but alas, there are certain posters than can turn a debate into a circular argument without backing down at all. It's that, that I don't enjoy, and I can see it happening if a HOF for matches came to fruition.

While I was always a fan of Akiyama I cannot see him in the same tier as Tanahashi whatsoever. He was the fifth cog in the AJPW wheel, a fine worker, who had great matches but for me, inferior as a worker and a draw compared to Tanahashi. I do agree though that Tanahashi was at the right place at the right time. I will not being using the 'best iPPV draw ever' card either as I find that a tad absurd at this juncture.

A wrestling match HoF, that would just be circular arguments as it's purely based on someone's perception unless we are taking things like how much a match drew at the gate and other tangible data. Yes, and this thread has no circular arguments based on perception. Just because it's happening here, doesn't mean I want more of the same.

I think more Batista than Goldberg in the way he has been brought in. Goldberg just was booked to be invincible from the start as a single, where as Reigns and Batista were positioned with others as heels. I do agree though, that it's a tad too early to turn any of the shield. I am worried for Seth Rollins if that happens.

About 50% through this so far. Enjoying it, and I really agree with your comments about Taue getting in to the HoF if someone like Sasaki is already in. I think Akiyama would be a tougher sell however. The point you raised about Matsunaga potentially getting 90% of the votes in other years is another point I agree on. That "others" section is such a nightmare moving forward, I don't think any one candidate is going to stand out above the others enough to garner enough votes.

A wrestling match HoF, that would just be circular arguments as it's purely based on someone's perception unless we are taking things like how much a match drew at the gate and other tangible data.

I was also pretty baffled by this when I saw it -- this guy had absolutely no clue what he was watching. Outside of the standard F4W 'crew'. I only really enjoy Stephen Lyons writing style as it pertains to columns or reviews.

And here's the free audio show: Clicky The audio is messed up due to Alvarez having tech issues, so it sounds like AM Radio.

I was 10 in '92 - I liked Kona Crush for a period. *shudder*

Was coming here to say this. He's a guy that really doesn't get enough credit for being as BAD as he was. Worse yet, he hung around for so many years without having a single memorable moment, match, move, gimmick, anything. Just devoid of anything interesting. His 'Mania X match with Savage was really fun.

@WONF4W Got questions for Grantland's David 'Masked Man' Shoemaker about wrestling or his new book?Tweet them to us!

+1 for this.

We have numerous HoF's, even a Hall Of Pain (thanks Mizark!), but doing a Hall of Shame could be fun. (Worst angles, workers, gimmicks, promotions) Kinda like Wrestlecrap, but better.