Ship Canal

I agree with much of that, but with one massive caveat: I believe strongly that while patriarchy/capitalism/oppression still exists those social groups that are marginalized by it will still find it necessary to escape its preconceived narratives and bullshit expectations by also organizing independently and separately from it. This carves out a space that hasn't been afforded to those groups historically and enables them to exercise their own autonomy. Its why women only spaces/trans only spaces etc are still important for a lot of people. Its not excluding men or cis people, its simply stating that we live in a world which is structured to ensure men and cis people are advantaged in ways that women and trans people aren't, and that this particular space, for this particular period of time, is ours to explore ourselves and what it means to be us without having to live up to your expectations. And in that light, you can see how a womens only promotion isn't necessarily an automatic step down from a feminist ideal. The structures of power we exist in matter a great deal and until we move beyond them it can sometimes be necessary to organize along lines of identity, too, and the two aren't necessarily contradictory.

There is PLENTY I have to say on this, but I'm not sure if I want to necessarily wade into things right away, especially with Charles still working out how best to put in place the Wrestling Criticism folder so we can discuss these deeper sociopolitical issues with some kind of consensus on what the rules of engagement are. I worry that without those having been put into place this kind of topic could descend pretty quickly into ill informed snarkiness, people chucking around tired trigger warning jokes and mischaracterizations of feminism. I'm not saying there is a huge amount of that on this particular board, but I do think its something that can get out of hand double quick. Its also really difficult for someone like me to discuss stuff like this without recourse to the kind of phrasing that might be considered jargon by some but which is common parlance other circles these days, and some people have already begun to say they feel some of the discussions around American imperialism and GWE should be knocked on the head in that folder. They don't have to read this thread of course, but I do think the ensuing discussion will be better in the proposed new folder if it gets off the ground. So for now, just a few thoughts that sprung to mind: Firstly, there are as many different types of feminism as there are conservatisms or queer liberation theories or what have you, so the response to the questions you pose are largely going to be defined by that. For example, I'm an anarcho-syndicalist activist and the kind of feminism that I would subscribe to is heavily influenced by the experiences and testimony of other anarcha-feminists and this makes me naturally very resistant to, say, liberal feminism (liberal in the traditionally understood European definition of the term - establishment centrist/centre right) or the kind of corporate feminism represented by a Sheryl Sandberg or someone. Contemporary anarcha feminism also tends to be strongly influenced by intersectional theory and trans liberation theory, and therefore very hostile to something like the RadFem movement who we would view as transphobic. So you can see just from that brief outline of where the particular type of feminism I'm more steeped in stands in relation to a couple of other strands of feminist thinking, its almost impossible to answer your question about the ultimate end goal of feminism in wrestling because the ultimate end goals of feminsims themselves are not the same. I've got some other thoughts too but I'll break up the posts in the interests of it looking neater that way and maybe come back to the thread tomorrow after other people have commented.

This discussion reminded me of something I was thinking about recently, specifically in relation to narratives attached to Japanese wrestling. Essentially, hardcore fans like those from the "western world" (not a useful phrase really, but you get me) have relied more or less exclusively on largely unattributed statements from Meltzer et al on how Japanese fans themselves relate to narratives within their domestic wrestling product. There are other voices like OJ who can translate stuff from Japanese and give us a far better understanding of how the big narratives in Japanese wrestling have been traditionally received and interpreted by a Japanese audience, which is a fantastic development, but it still feels somewhat inadequate that we are relying on such degrees of separation overall and I'd be fascinated to discover what kinds of counter narratives and revisionism exist within Japanese fandom itself. In terms of the influence narratives have on how we think about workers though, and to veer away from Japan and pick out two examples from WWF/E you mention, the source and context of how that narrative is established is important to me: I see something like Backlund/Hart's positioning as "the best" as being more or less an extension of their gimmick, one that has a genuine practical element to it: these guys are the face of the company, lets keep them strong. They also fulfill a very basic narrative function in that they are in some way representing a kind of meritocracy or sense of fair play. This bleeds into their babyface characterizations too. In Bret's case that even shaped his own personal narrative about what he felt he symbolized within the business. I'd contrast that kind of pragmatic, booking based narrative with one I'm slightly more uncomfortable with, the revisionist positioning of HBK as the "greatest". Its fair to say its a narrative that only really began to take hold and be pushed hard when the Wars were truly over and Vince was the last man standing. Competitive dominance, monopolization eventually leads to the ability to create that hegemonic narrative unopposed (materially and resource wise at least), which is more troubling to me.

Some thoughts on Funk: I had Funk at 1 and Flair at 2. In some ways this final positioning was really me trying to weight the subjective and objective. I was more than happy to have either guy at number one based on in ring stuff alone, but Funk edged it when it came to things outside of that and what he represents to me personally. Now, don't go thinking that is to say I don't have an emotional connection to Ric Flair - I most certainly do, but its a very different one than I have with Funk. What really gets me about Funk is the sheer amount of pathos that drips off some of his best angles and promos. Perhaps its my somewhat maudlin nature but I find there to be far more of an emotionally moving, challenging aspect to some of Funk's greatest achievements in terms of character work than there is in Flairs. Flair can hook me in with a narrative mid match, easy, with something he does in the ring. He can cut a barnstorming, all time great promo before and after the match too. But for whatever reason, and to paraphrase Funk's famous adage, at his best, I just believe in Funk more. I'm not one of those who refers to pro wrestling as an artform because I'm worried about about people erroneously holding onto notions of high and low culture and having a pop at me for loving it, I don't think the fundamental bits and pieces of what make pro wrestling arresting and brilliant need to be ratified by the academy or recognized in literary journals because I think that's a fundamentally short sighted and reactionary notion of what art is... Actually, I sometimes quite perversely enjoy the disdain that is heaped on pro wrestling by its detractors. I like a lot of stuff that's considered trashy or base and I personally draw no distinction whatsoever between "high" and "low" culture, so what I'm about to say about Funk and pathos shouldn't be read as me trying to recast him as peak Brando here or anything like that. I'm not saying he "transcends the genre", the kind of phrase I'm always deeply uncomfortable about because its usually used as a backhanded disparagement of the genre itself rooted in elitism and anyway wrestling is a medium, not a genre. So that's not where I'm coming from. But when I look at something like the Lawler empty arena match, like Funk marauding through the Memphis studio set shirtless with one eye smashing his head off a chair what I'm seeing is the absolute, pathetic vulnerability of the kid at school who bullied everyone because he never had a chance, because he hated himself in his own skin. I'm also seeing the frustrated, self loathing deadbeat dad who pisses every paycheque up the pub toilet wall because his kids won't speak to him any more. I'm seeing someone who is coming across as at once an absolute physical threat, a real malign presence but at the same time has let his self destructive streak take over completely because he has no self worth left. That's there in lots of heels, sure it is. But none of them have ever hit me in the gut with it like Funk has. Watch him throughout the whole interaction with Lance before Lawler turns up in the empty arena match - he's constantly appealing for validation and approval from Lance (who is a magnificent foil as the paternal stand in for so many people watching, too). There's this genuine sense of tragedy that just beams through the performance. I can't imagine anyone else approaching anything that makes me feel as conflicted or as sad as that. I've no doubt the same match would still be a superb piece of pro wrestling TV if it involved Flair instead of Funk. But I don't think its something that would stay with me quite so permanently and powerfully. Is this because Funk is a great actor? Perhaps not in the commonly understood sense, and he would completely veer off into OTT and mannered stuff himself throughout his career. But when he wanted to do layered, implied, straight up heartbreaking shit that leaves me ruminating on it for days, he's the best. He's a great actor within the expectations and formula of pro wrestling. And I love that. Its genuine craftmanship and I never ever get the feeling that he'd rather be doing anything else, that this was just a means to a monetary end. I feel like more than just about any pro wrestler ever Terry Funk understands that there can be a nobility in the willing suspension of disbelief in a horribly cynical world and he won't dumb things down for me as a fan. And I say all this as someone whose only live experience of Funk was of him stumbling around the ring with an uncooked turkey on his head during a disastrous WCW tour of the UK in the late 90's. Its not only that he embodies the sublime to the ridiculous, its that I think he understands the strengths and limitations of both those extremes better than anyone else. Without that innate quality, his run as the aging gunslinger back for one last challenge in ECW, one last shot at redemption doesn't have the heft it does. You could plug another guy in there, course you could. You could book it the exact same. It would probably even have a similar result. But it wouldn't be one that I'd find anywhere near as affecting. Funk has that special connection with me.

I had Flair #1 and Funk #2 I had Funk at 1, Flair at 2.

How very historically determinist of you funkdoc

Yep, spot on. In fact, I sometimes take this to extremes and say I'm just pausing an episode of a TV show to go and make a cup of tea, I'll dip back into whichever podcast I'm working through at the time. Its only about five minutes, but its five minutes that could be informative or worthwhile. There is barely a single household chore or even a brief trip over the road to the newsagents/off licence that I don't soundtrack with a podcast of some kind. I listen to them at night as I'm drifting off to sleep and when I'm get ready for work the next day, while I'm in the shower... That probably seems absolutely preposterous to some people, but there you go. Just a demonstration of what funkdoc was talking about. And I should also point out that my podcast habit isn't confined to pro wrestling podcasts - if there is something I am interested in, even vaguely, I probably subcribe to a podcast about it. The only time I ever listen to live radio or watch live TV is when a major news event is taking place, or for football matches.

I think that's a great idea Loss. I've often held off from posting in other threads as I've genuinely not wanted to be accused of making things too political in the sense of attaching certain kinds of analyses to things. As I say, nothing heavy handed or, I hope, in any way dismissive of any other beliefs or ways of seeing the world, but sometimes it just didn't feel all that appropriate to do so. A section of the board for those of us who want to go down those particular rabbit holes in an environment of conviction that doesn't veer over into unnecessary aggro would be really useful, I think.

1. Terry Funk 2. Ric Flair 3. Toshiaki Kawada 4. Kenta Kobashi 5. Mitsuharu Misawa 6. Jerry Lawler 7. Negro Casas 8. Nick Bockwinkel 9. Stan Hansen 10. Aja Kong 11. Jumbo Tsuruta 12. Daniel Bryan 13. Genichiro Tenyru 14. Satanico 15. Ricky Steamboat 16. Chigusa Nagayo 17. Jim Breaks 18. Akira Hokuto 19. Akira Taue 20. Tatsumi Fujinami 21. Shinya Hashimoto 22. Jaguar Yokota 23. Bull Nakano 24. Kyoshi Tamura 25. Jushin Liger 26. Volk Han 27. Billy Robinson 28. Yoshiaki Fujiwara 29. Arn Anderson 30. Giant Baba 31. Blue Panther 32. Vader 33. Randy Savage 34. William Regal 35. The Destroyer 36. Jun Akiyama 37. Yuki Ishikawa 38. Steve Austin 39. Sangre Chicana 40. Rey Mysterio Jr 41. Eddie Guerrero 42. Riki Choshu 43. Jack Brisco 44. Manami Toyota 45. El Dandy 46. El Hijo Del Santo 47. Akira Maeda 48. Ricky Morton 49. Bobby Eaton 50. Shinobu Kandori 51. Rick Martel 52. Tully Blanchard 53. Hiroshi Hase 54. Dave Finlay 55. Greg Valentine 56. Buddy Rose 57. Too Cold Scorpio 58. John Cena 59. Barry Windham 60. Ted Dibiase 61. Samoa Joe 62. Bret Hart 63. Sean Waltman 64. Tito Santana 65. Atlantis 66. Mick Foley 67. Brock Lesnar 68. Tajiri 69. AJ Styles 70. Meiko Satomura 71.Bill Dundee 72. Roddy Piper 73. Atsushi Onita 74. Yoshinari Ogawa 75. Terry Rudge 76. Dick Togo 77. Masa Fuchi 78. Yoshiaki Yatsu 79. Hayabusa 80.Great Sasuke 81. Steve Grey 82.Brian Pillman 83. Lioness Asuka 84. Andre the Giant 85. Ron Garvin 86. Adrian Street 87. Megumi Kudo 88. La Parka 89. Dustin Rhodes 90. Johnny Saint 91.Sami Zayn 92. Tommy Rogers 93. Stan Lane 94. Dynamite Kid 95. Shinsuke Nakamura 96. Necrobutcher 97. YAMATO 98. Masaaki Mochizuki 99. KENTA 100. Survival Tobita

Can we be the Larry Levan of pro wrestling at least? Please??? Also Loss, given you've popped for my This Heat reference in a previous post and Frankie Knuckles has been brought up. we should totally exchange mixtapes.

THIS. Well, as a full blown card carrying "SJW" (that's a phrase coined by the extreme right, btw, and largely about as useful a social designator as "hipster" these days) who genuinely believes that capitalism and patriarchy and racism and homophobia and just about any other form of intersecting oppression you can imagine is, quite probably, very much a bad thing, I am still capable of watching a wrestling match. I'm also capable of listening to Jamaican dancehall music, gangsta rap, black metal - all of which contain certain artists whose views and actions range from juvenile homophobia all the way through to full blown endorsemnent of national socialism, without feeling the need to be particularly outraged by it. I take note of the problematic parts, and any analysis I make - be it written or otherwise - after the fact has to at least take note and highlight the most politically or socially troubling aspects of these things if I want to be in any way honest to myself at all. There is a huge, HUGE difference between having something entirely sanitized and removed of anything that might have once given it some sort of appeal and thrill and attempting to better match an artform - albeit one that is still invested heavily in some of the sleaziest aspects of its creation - to a world that quite rightly has much more of an issue with all kinds of shitty behaviour it once tolerated. You can literally watch ANY pro wrestling match from before about 2000 and have that entire recorded history of work as a space for you to indulge in memories of a time before "SJW's" begun spoiling your fun with their pesky trigger warnings or what have you. But you can also quite readily accept that this, just like, I dunno, an old film in which the one queer character is an effeminate, mincing, Liza Minelli obsessed queen, is a depiction that belongs to a less enlightened time. That does NOT mean that pro wrestling can't still have heels engaging in truly heelish activity. The problem with WWE specifically is that its a company that has been proven to be incredibly insensitive in terms of its depiction of marginalized groups in the past, so when a heel is dropping "natural heel" moves you do have to wonder whether or not its more a reflection of the incredibly right wing dynasty that is pulling the strings. And that's just it: every person who believes the idea that pro wrestling should be watched in an apolitical vacuum free of any kind of politicized analysis is pissing in the wind if you are trying to persuade a lot of the rest of us that that is possible or even desirable. We've been told for years that we should be more objective, just let things roll over us like water off a ducks back and "hey, its wrestling! Its full of sleazy shit!" and that's fine up to a point, but you can't expect those of us for whom our politics are an important part of our everyday lives and shape the view we have of... well, pretty much everything, to feel like we are somehow hamstringing ourselves. I have to exist under capitalism every day and I'm not going to go all Unabomber and run off to the hills and live in a tent and live off berries and exclude myself from the rest of society, I don't see that as particularly productive. So instead you become comfortable with certain contradictions - you aren't going to immiserate yourself in a muddy field for the rest of your life because you genuinely feel guilty for buying something from Apple given how they treat their workers in China - so you picket the Apple store instead. Its a compromise that allows you to retain your sanity (and your central heating). Watching pro wrestling as an "SJW" is no different. Its not a zerosum game. Just like discussing any other kind of art. In reference to Dyaln's point about political dimensions in pro wrestling discussion, I have a lot of sympathy with that. I find it difficult not to bring politics into just about EVERYTHING, by which I don't mean just randomly quoting blocks of Kropotkin at people or whatever. There are ways to discuss political dimensions of things without being didactic or explicit. We do it every day. The personal is political, after all. I should also point out that I've been genuinely nervous about expressing some of the stuff in my post on PWO before now, and I can't really touch on why Thanks for starting this thread Loss.

The more I've pored over the debates being had in the nominations threads and listened to the podcasts roll out, the more I'm convinced that those who predicted a comparable lack of joshi candidates ranking high this year may be proven wrong. I'm not saying many will poll as high as they did last time, but I don't think as many will drop off as some folk may have presumed. I think the much discussed divide/correlation between "greatest" and "favourite" will play into this. For every sober minded "not all styles are created equal" argument that is put forward (btw did you ever write that piece Dylan? Was genuinely looking forward to reading it), I think when it actually came time to put pen to paper a significant amount of voters may have found it hard to justify lower votes for female workers who might have provided some of the most emotionally engaging moments in all of their fandom, even if their opinion on the quality of the work from an objective point of view may have advanced some. Again, we are back to the idea that its extremely difficult for some of us to work out the tension that exists between a more detached objectivity and a more emotionally resonant subjectivity. And then there are people like me who just think most of the criticisms of some joshi are extremely harsh. Anyway, having made this grand prediction, I now await the inevitable inclusion of all my joshi workers in the next batch of honorable mentions. Bound to happen.

Outside of the Chicago film archive footage (praise be) are there any other notable collections of 50's US stuff out there? Has anyone put together comps before etc?

Done: Survival Tobita, be assured: I have ZERO shame when it comes to changing my avatar to a photo of you, you beautiful, preposterous human.

Well that's three of mine down - YAMATO, Survival Tobita and Adrian Street. I have to say I'm delighted that Tobita made it to SEVEN ballots. Its enough to restore my faith in humanity. Io Shirai seemed to be high up considering modern joshi is one of the less discussed styles round these parts. Maybe the increased profile of Stardom in the last few years saw to that, who knows.

Great show. Also Stacey, your criteria, or lack therof in terms of being able to specifically pin point it, echoes my own and it was cool to hear someone articulate that better than I have managed in my own head thus far. And yet our lists are still pretty different which is nice.

Mine would be Perro Aguayo vs. Jerry Lawler sometime between 83-84. I meant our "perfect match" in terms of the voter on the board who most closely aligns with our own views Someone should develop a script that can run on OKCupid to this end. "Hi, I noticed you were also the high vote on Mr Fuji, can I buy you a drink sometime?"

As much as I adore RnR Express, I always felt the name was incredibly corny. I mean, I know some of the ones I have mentioned are hardly cool, and its wrestling after all, so calling something out for being corny is a pretty preposterous notion in and of itself, but the name and the gimmick always reminded me of an embarrassing Dad taking his teenage son to his first gig and declaring that he's "rock n rollin' baby!" at a Bauhaus gig or some shit. Or Cliff Richard imploring people to "move it and a groove it" in comparison to Jerry Lee Lewis smashing up your medicine cabinet and setting himself on fire accidentally after downing the bleach from under your sink. Admittedly, growing up in inner city northern England, there may have been something lost in cultural translation, because as I said, its not like they weren't obscenely over. Just always kind of cringed at the name, whereas something equally silly like Miracle Violence Connection or Minnesota Wrecking Crew just didn't seem quite as risible in context...

I'm super pushed for time Panther so sorry for just dumping a list of links from an external source on you, but these links to dailymotion matches should help you familiarize yourself with some of the Stardom women. The full index is here: http://joshicity.com/joshi-match-recommendation/ In particular I'd recommend: 2015: May 17th – Kairi Hojo vs. Mayu Iwatani in Stardom June 14th – Kairi Hojo vs. Meiko Satomura in Stardom July 26th – Kairi Hojo vs. Meiko Satomura in Stardom August 23rd – Io Shirai vs. Mayu Iwatani in Stardom September 13th – Hudson Envy vs. Io Shirai in Stardom September 23rd – Hudson Envy vs. Kairi Hojo in Stardom 2016: January 17th – Mayu Iwatani vs. Kay Lee Ray in Stardom January 17th – Io Shirai vs. Kairi Hojo in Stardom

Yeah, my bad, a friend of mine posted a graphic with Hojo and Shirai on it and I presumed they'd been booked opposite each other on the show, hadn't realized it was a tag bout. I'm high on all three Stardom aces too and you are right Norwegian Rudo, all are top class. Hojo vs Satomura was my number 2 womens MOTY last year after Sasha vs Bayley.

Dangan Yankees (no idea what it actually means, but it sounds badass) The Yukon Lumberjacks Samoan SWAT Team Jumping Bomb Angels Rhythm and Blues Doom (so simple, yet so menacing) Special K was funny at the time, but only because I was taking a lot of it myself.

I always thought that must have been the case, especially because Mayne was visually reminiscent of the Moondog beloved of freaks and outsiders everywhere.

Awesome to see so many last minute entries! Any word on what the total amount of ballots is now the deadline has passed? Actually, its only 10.15 here in the UK so I'm guessing Grimmas is still in bed, bless him.

Haven't seen Takeover yet so had to quickly look away from Jay's last comment but Southside Wrestling posted this footage of their ten bell salute and tribute video for Trav.  Its very, very moving, so I don't suggest watching if you are just about to leave the house or are at work or anything like that. I'm still so very gutted about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpbVFb5yCTU

Hahahah I've just finished part 1 so far, haven't reached that part yet, nice one!