JAC

Would you have said the same for Rock and Austin after their Wrestlemania XV match? Well, I haven't watched Wresltemania XV since I watched it live on PPV, so my memory is a bit hazy. It's an interesting question, though, so I'll try to come up with a decent answer. I do remember the match a bit (specifically, I remember hating it and liking their Backlash match a lot more). To the best of my recollection, they did some crowd brawling, and I do believe that The Rock kicked out of a Stunner. While I don't want to defend a match I disliked, I'll say that "emptying the cupboard" would be more acceptable there because (1) it's supposed to be the biggest match of the year, so it calls for pulling out all of the stops; (2) Austin and Rock had feuded in the past, having at least one PPV match on December 1997, so The Rock kicking out of a Stunner could be said to be progression over his previous PPV loss to Austin; (3) I believe there may have been some delay in the ref making his count following the Stunner in the Austin/Rock match (IIRC), making it a delayed kickout. There was still the question of whether The Rock could survive a pin immediately following a Stunner. To sum up, I think Rock v. Austin has more reason to "empty the cupboard", as I've called it, yet that match still left a little bit for future matches. The Rock proved to be a much tougher challenge for Austin at Wrestlemania 17, and overcame him at Wrestlemania 19. In the context of Cena v. Owens, I wish they had saved the kickout from the pop-up powerbomb for down the road.

On the topic of my turn/your turn, specific to Cena v. Owens, I think they probably overdid it a little bit. It didn't really detract from my enjoyment of the match, but I don't think it left them much room to go forward. How do you build upon a match that was wrestled like a Wrestlemania main event? Both guys have already kicked out of each other's finishing move. It just seems like there's no room for progression in their feud match-wise. They emptied the cupboard in their very first match.

The key was to fall asleep right before the original ref came to after the main event, thereby avoiding the full Dusty. I'll say this, I think they were smart to run the belt-stealing angle. The Dusty finish was pretty yucky, but by immediately having Reigns come out and get the belt back to Ambrose, and the having the faces take the belt hostage, they gave the fans something to cheer about. I don't like it per se, but if you're going to do the Dusty finish, I think that's the least annoying way to do it.

I agree. It has its place, as long as its used in moderation, and as long as everyone remembers to sell. I'd liken it to an exciting sudden death overtime in hockey, when each team is going all-in on every scoring opportunity, with the puck being rushed from one end of the ice to the other. If it's done well, the wrestlers will incorporate blocks and counters to justify the momentum shifts. If it's not done well... ugh.

While I actually prefer for finishers to be less sacrosanct (I'd rather each guy have several moves that could conceivably, but not necessarily, end a match), I do think it's somewhat dubious to have someone kick out of Owens' signature move in his debut match. It would have been better if the match had been built around Cena avoiding the pop-up powerbomb rather than kicking out of it. Heck, they actually did do it to some extent, talking about how Cena knew Owens' gameplan and was fighting to stay out of it. If anyone was to kick out of the powerbomb, I'd be fine with it being Cena, but not in Owens' very first match, I think they should have protected it better. Save the kick-out spot for a big rematch down the road. And no, not at MITB. Next year sometime. Nonetheless, it was a really fun match.

I picked Tsuruta. Just like Tsuruta v. Misawa, I think this is a close call. Both guys have really impressive 20-year peaks. In Tsuruta's case, it's basically his whole career. In Tenryu's case, his peak came late, but endured seemingly forever. I've never liked a wrestler over 50 years old more than I like old Tenryu. I can't think of any other wrestler whose 40's decade I like better. He's really nifty in that regard. What's even cooler about Tenryu is that his awesome 'old' aged run came at a time when great performances by old wrestlers was less of a thing than it had been in years past. Ric Flair and Terry Funk were both very active into their 50's, but I think the quality of Tenryu's work during that same period was a few notches above theirs. I don't love the WAR stuff as much as others, so perhaps Tenryu's candidacy--from my perspective, at least--would have been helped if he'd have returned to AJPW sooner or made NJPW his home promotion for an extended stretch. Then again, the outsider appeal added much to the aura of many of his most memorable matches. His matches with Hashimoto in 1993 to 1994 are probably my favourite Hashimoto matches. So... I picked Tsuruta, but I can't stop talking about Tenryu. Hmm... He's just such an interesting candidate. That said, I think Tsuruta was more effective at working a wider range of styles (I'm thinking in particular of some of his matwork-heavy 70's stuff), was a more consistent performer (based on what made tape) and had a few more high peaks. Of course, their best singles match was against each other, so they share that one in particular. Both guys would make my Top 10, maybe even my Top 5, so there's not much to choose from. I'll give Tenryu this thought--if hair was part of the criteria, Tenryu's handsome Jheri curls would win hands down. Best hair in wrestling, bar none.

I finally cast a vote for Jumbo on this. I know, I'm late to the party. It's a slightly contrarian vote by my own standards, as I tend to privilege a worker's peaks about all else--I'd value a guy who's often average and occasionally exceptional over a guys who's always a bit better than average but never exceptional, because the exceptional performances are what stands out. I do think Misawa's peaks are higher than anyone else's peaks, including Jumbo's. Jumbo's 70's work wouldn't be fodder for Jumbo as a great worker if the vets were doing the bulk of the work. However, I really don't think that's the case. Jumbo brings a lot to the table in his matches and looks every bit as good as his opponents. His 1977 match with Race is one of the best put-together Harley Race matches I've seen. I think one could argue strongly that he was Billy Robinson's best opponent. The had a what appears to be a stellar 65-minute draw in 1976 (I've only ever seen it clipped down to about 35 or 40 minutes, but what's there is incredible) and an incredible fun series for the UN Title in March of 1977. I like his suplexes the very best in the 1970's. He's fantastic at those slow, dead-lift suplexes in which he allows gravity to bring his opponent crashing down after he muscles his opponent into the air. They look really beautiful. I would tend to agree that he stands out less in the early 80's. I find this period to be just about the most boring period of All Japan before the 2000 exodus. But I don't think the Flair matches can be said to be boring--I think the early 80's Flair matches are quite good. By the mid-80's, the promotion is on fire and Jumbo is excellent until the hepatitis lays him low. Lastly, regarding whether there are any instances of Jumbo having a great match with a mediocre opponent à la Flair, I'd like to point to this match with Brody--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPL7iiDLkLs--but I suspect I may like that match more than anyone else, so perhaps that's not the best argument for me to go with.

Wait, what ? You can't say that. "Le plus ça change" but it doesn't sound so good. "Plus ça change" would work the best. (sorry about that...) I'd make a lousy Québécois. Correction noted (with thanks).

I always loved that timeline. It opened up a lot of new avenues to explore in my wrestling fandom. Plus ça change....

Sumo Hall--Vader's debut? Newspapers and 20-20 aren't very popular with kids and teenagers. I browsed the paper and watched 20/20 occasionally, but I'll cop to that highly unusual for a ten year old. However, kids and teenagers do have parents who read papers and watch news programs. Those parents may tell their kids, "You know, that wrestling stuff is phoney. They admitted it; it's right here in the paper!" If they're nice parents, they may even do what mine did and show their kids the paper or tape the program, knowing that they're interested. I was too young to see the 20/20 piece when it first aired, but I saw Connie Chung's piece on pro wrestling air live in 1990. It used to be on YouTube but I guess it got taken down--otherwise, I'd link to it. I believe it's on the 1990 Yearbook. I wasn't the only kid in my class who saw it or knew about it at the time. I don't disagree that the older crowds were better. I despise the "This is awesome" chants and think it detracts from the whole experience. Last night, I watched the Flair/Race and Tsuruta/Von Erich matches from 5/22/84 in All Japan. The crowd heat for those really blew me away. It was such a great atmosphere in comparison with today's product. However, I was in attendance for the 7/21/97 Raw in Halifax that is well know for having an absolutely molten hot crowd cheering on the Hart Foundation and jeering at Austin and Michaels. If kayfabe is about the fans believing it's real, then I can't seriously believe that kayfabe is the differentiator between the way old crowds reacted and the way new ones do, because nobody in 1997 believed that wrestling was real (although a great many probably believed, correctly, that Shawn Michaels was a real jerk). However... This exactly! Superb post putting into words what I've struggled to articulate before now. Excellent stuff. Agreed 100% too with the added caveat that type [4] often makes for an irritating live crowd, but they are still essentially being worked. I can more or less agree with this. I don't believe that any significant number of people, at least around where I live, have been emotionally invested in wrestling because they thought it was real--not since I became a fan around 1989, anyway. And from everyone I've talked to, I think that was the case for previous generations. My father tells me about watching wrestling at the Halifax Forum with his grandfather back in the 1960's. My great-grandfather would swing his cane at the heels, but as he and my dad would leave at the end of the night, he'd say "I know it's all phoney, but those guys just get me so riled up!". From what I've seen, that was the nature of the beast for quite some time. Nowadays, the illusion has been stripped away entirely. Depending on your perspective, kayfabe is either dead or, as Herodes suggests, has transmogrified into something completely different.

On February 10, 1989, Vince admitted to the NJ State Legislature that wrestling is a work. That same day, I attended my first ever live wrestling card (WWF here in Halifax, NS). I was just days short of my 10th birthday. The next day, my father showed me the article in our local paper about McMahon's big admission. A week earlier, during The Main Event (when the Mega Powers broke up), my dad had explained how wrestling was worked--I got smartened up while watching just my second wrestling show! At least a couple of other kids in my class had heard about the story, presumably through their parents. My best friend, already an established wrestling fan, thought it pretty obvious that it wasn't a real competition. Again, we were 9 or 10 years old. If it registered with us, I'm sure that It must have been known to most older fans. Either that or Halifax is the smark capital of the world.

This exactly. These are two of my absolute favourites, but Jumbo's peak is basically his entire career. That's hard to beat. As Childs indicated, Misawa is very hit & miss throughout the 80's. Looking back on his Tiger Mask work, he is a solid performer, but prior to his unmasking, there's not very much to signal that he'll be a future legend. Upon unmasking, he is rapidly elevated from mid-card to main event and rise to the challenge nicely. That said, from May 1990 until sometime in 1993 (maybe around the time of the Champions Carnival), he seems to be finding his way and evolving into the wrestler he was meant to be. I suppose I would include these years as being peak years, but there's a lot of growth during that time. By 1993, he seems to have settled on his in ring repertoire, discarding some moves while adding others, and developing his own signature style. When watching Misawa wrestle Jumbo, while the matches are excellent, one doesn't have a sense that Misawa's wrestling his style of match. It's a Jumbo match. By 1993, Misawa comes across as being fully formed as a wrestler. Misawa's peak is incredible (unparalleled, in my opinion), although it's hard to determine when ends. I know that many people are critical of the head-dropping style that came to be predominate in All Japan, but I think that Misawa continues to have a very sold output until the exodus of 2000. I consider the beginning of NOAH to be the beginning of Misawa's post-peak. That leaves him with about nine years of post-peak performances. I'm not a big fan of NOAH, and I don't think the matches have aged all that well. Nonetheless, despite his body breaking down quite badly, Misawa did have a number of good to great performances during this time, included the well regard GHC match with Kobashi. I really like his final match with Kawada at the 2005 Tokyo Dome show (probably more than most). In contrast, Jumbo looks like a top worker from the moment he makes video tape. He was counted on to be the No. 2 native in All Japan pretty much from his Japanese debut. He appears to be one of the super workers of the 1970's (although he's helped out by the fact that more tape exists of All Japan and New Japan in the 1970's than basically anywhere else). Nonetheless, from what I've seen, he's entered his peak years by 1976 if not sooner. Over the next 15 years, he evolves as the dominate style of wrestling in his promotion chances, excelling all throughout. He's still going strong by the time his peak ends as a result of Hepatitis in late '92. Technically, Jumbo has a post-peak from the time he returns from his hepatitis-related sabbatical until his last match in 1998, but as far as I can recall, he did not work a full-time schedule. I believe he only works some comedy 6-man matches at the big shows. Thus, his post-peak is limited to a handful of matches that are not presented as anything to be taken seriously. The end result is a remarkably long prime that composes almost the entirety of his career, especially if one goes by the number of matches wrestled. I'll have a bit more to say later on some other aspects of the comparison, but I can't help but think that Jumbo looks good for not being weighed down by having a mediocre pre- or post-peak period, unlike so many other great workers. Haven't voted yet, but leaning strongly in favour of Jumbo. He's a solid contender for my No. 1 (if I were to vote). Misawa's probably somewhere below him in my Top 5, maybe as high as No. 2.

During "Is this a Canadian place", I kept hoping to hear "St. Louis de Ha-Ha". I was thrilled to hear it referenced. We have a few decent place names in Nova Scotia beyond Shag Harbour that are worth mentioning. Not particularly clever, but I like that while Germany no longer has an East and West Berlin, Nova Scotia does.

I appreciate Will's take on the question of building the promotion around heel v. face champions. The notion of chasing the heel champion has been quite thoroughly romanticized (Jim Ross talked about preferring that model on a recent podcast), but I think the traditional WWF model of strong face champions works better. There's something utterly deflating about watching a promotion in which the faces constantly lose to the heel champion. Worse yet, when they win, they quickly drop the title, proving themselves unworthy of your faith. People want to cheer a winner. In the Attitude Era, probably the most compelling stretch of television the WWF had was in the spring and summer of 1998 through to Summerslam, when Austin was fending off all challengers That said, there's room for a bit of both. A solid run on top for a heel champ makes the face's quest for the title more compelling. But there's no need for anything like Triple H's boring title runs in the early part of the last decade.

I agree. I thought it might be a chore to sit through, but the 3 hours and 50 minutes flew by in a flash. Much more quickly than, say, trying to watch WrestleMania IV. I can't wait for Part II to be posted.

Listening to Flair rag on his own perceived shortcomings is frustrating because he really sells himself short. When watching his 80's work, it's obvious that Flair brought a lot to the table offensively--he threw four good looking suplexes, used backbreakers and kneebreakers and had some nice ways of working over the knee to set up the figure four. I think Flair's significantly better when he's on top for a decent stretch of the match. Not long after we get to the nineties, Flair seems to pare down his offensive repertoire and begins to spend more time working underneath. His matches seem far less compelling the more that this shift occurs.

Agreed. However, I don't see it happening. Listening to some of the things Triple H has said on the Austin and Jericho podcasts, it sounds as though the corporate position is that indie wrestlers don't really know how to work. If they really have that much contempt for non-WWE wrestling product, it seems unlikely that the WWE would ever allow its PC-trained wrestlers to get seasoned on the indie circuit--as Trips would say, they'd just pick up 'bad habits'. Even though the WWE has signed some big-name indie talent, one still gets the sense that what the WWE 'braintrust' (Vince specifically?) really wants to sign raw athletes and turn them into wrestlers sports entertainers from scratch. It almost seems as if they only sign Indie guys because they know they need to. If the WWE could succeed in taking football washouts and bodybuilders and drawing money with them, I'm pretty sure it would forever eschew indie workers entirely.

The National Post (a Toronto-based national newspaper here in Canada) has a story online about NXT and the future of women's wrestling: http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/television/wwe-executive-vice-president-paul-triple-h-levesques-plan-to-get-more-women-wrestling. Nothing all that new here, but interesting to see this get some coverage in a major newspaper. I like the idea of NXT being its own viable entity while still being a WWE feeder system, not unlike what the AHL is to the NHL. This makes it useful as a proving ground for innovations in the product, as well as for performers. Not unlike the way that hockey rule changes are given a trial run in the AHL before being implemented in the NHL, NXT can be used as proof-of-concept for changes to the way the product is presented, including the notion that a serious women's division can be an integral part of a wrestling show. Of course, if no one upstairs is watching....

Sorry, I should clarify. I don't think the best tag team should always beat a team of the top singles wrestlers, but I do think it good that there be some parity in that situation if the tag division is supposed to be something more than subordinate. And I don't mean to be an apologist for this match. I don't love it by any stretch. I think the result makes sense, and I don't think they went over so strong as to make it an outright squash. But it would have been better if Misawa & Kawada took more of the match. With Tsuruta out of the picture by the end of 1992, Misawa needed to look strong to be credible. In hindsight, this match didn't hurt him, but I don't think this match did him any favours. And I have no clue what the appeal of Doc and Gordy was and why they were so strongly pushed. From here on in, though, Doc will get a lot better. Unfortunately, it's a short peak.

Oops. Bad booking, MXE should had went over. I can't say I disagree with you. An MX victory would have been cool. I finished the podcast. The discussion of Hansen v. Kawada was great. I re-watched the match myself recently. It really is fantastic, and worthy of the praise you've given it. I see the comparison with Lesnar v. Reigns, but I like this considerably more. This match feels a bit more balanced, and is much better paced. If feels more like a wild brawl than an extended squash. Really, one of my favourite brawls ever. Just a comment about your upcoming matches—you might want to think about watching the Misawa v. Hansen TC match from May 1993. It's probably the best Misawa v. Hansen match, and pretty well regarded. I think it's a fair bit better than the MVC v. Misawa/Kawada match.

I hate to point it out, but Windham & Flair beat the Midnight Express at that Clash. But I think it's true nonetheless that there's no reason the best tag team can't be a match for the two best singles wrestlers. One nice aspect about All Japan, at least through 1995 is that the Triple Crown and the tag titles were of approximately equal stature, unlike in many other promotions in which the tag belts were clearly subordinate. Sometimes, the tag title match would even be in the main event slot, with the Triple Crown being defended in the semi-main. Likewise, the same guys who were fighting over the Triple Crown were vying for the tag titles. I don't really like the MVC v. Misawa/Kawada match, but I thought it did a good job setting both Williams and Gordy up as potential TC contenders while facilitating a split between Misawa and Kawada. And don't worry about all those matches to come featuring Williams and Ace as a team. They wind up as a shockingly good team, much better than MVC for my money.

Just listening to this now. Consider me a fan of the podcast, as well as your other shows. Regarding your early discussion of Misawa being new to the role of ace and Kawada being newly elevated, I can give you a much better analogy than the fictional Warrior/Beefcake match. Right around the same time, Bret Hart had been newly elevated to the World Championship, not unlike Misawa. For his first PPV title defence, Hart would face Shawn Michaels, newly elevated to the IC Title. Hart/Michaels doesn't have the tag partners dynamic, but their respective places on the cards aren't that far off of where Misawa and Kawada were slotted.

Wouldn't one expect more merchandise sales if his crowd reactions were more uniformly positive? Also, it seems logical that people would buy tickets to see the guys they like win, rather than to see the guys they dislike lose. You might want to see a true heel you dislike lose, but given the way Cena was traditionally booked (i.e., like Superman), you didn't have much hope of that until the last few years. I don't imagine that one can test that empirically, mind you. But it seems logical to me that there's more money to be made from an uber popular babyface than from a guy with Cena's mixed reactions. The top drawing periods for the WWE have traditionally come with hot faces on top (e.g., Sammartino, Backlund, Hogan, Austin). I do give them credit for marketing the Cena Sucks shirts a couple of years back. A nice attempt to get Cena merchandise dollars out of Cena haters. For the record, I'm not dumping on Cena. I like him just fine, warts and all. However, I don't think the booking over the years has maximized his potential.

I'm not so sure about the quality of Lesnar v. Reigns either. Reigns took an awesome beating, sure. But it didn't have a lot of flow. Just pick up Reigns, suplex him and repeat, with little hope spots tossed in. A good match sort of reminiscent of Vader's matches against Flair, Sting and Inoki. But I'm not seeing where the 5-star talk is coming from. Opinions may vary, but I thought I was watching a fun extended squash building to a miracle comeback, not an MOTYC. I did really like the blood though. It added a lot to the aura of the match.

It's one thing to be a chickensh%t heel, it's another to be a chickensh%t heel who never wins. The wins on PPV aren't there. But I suppose this isn't specific to Rollins. Every guy who wins MITB gets to do jobs until he cashes in. I get the idea in building interest in future match-ups, but I could do without guys being figuratively neutered before they get their title run.