funkdoc

i've actually listened to most of the GWE podcasts, and all of Titans. i mostly gravitate toward Kris's & Bix's stuff these days though. the thing yall are missing here is that podcasts have replaced radio for a lot of us. they're what get us through workouts and long drives and our jobs. they're not normally something you listen to with nothing else going on, they're background material. compared to wrestling i'd say the death of forums is much more real in other communities i've been involved with, so it's interesting to see that topic come up now. it probably will happen eventually, though, which will make GWE-type projects a challenge. i guess you'd have to resort to Reddit (or Something Awful if you want "quality control" via a paywall). i think live streams are a nice happy medium here - similar to podcasts but much more social since they allow viewers to chat with you in real time. i would like to see more wrestling shows use this type of format in the future, but there aren't a lot of major streaming sites that would work. there's Youtube streaming but i forget if there are big barriers to entry there. also Twitter can actually be great but it's real tough to figure out who's worth paying attention to. the advantage over forums is that instead of dealing with moderators playing favorites, you get to be your own moderator. there's a reason so many marginalized groups have gravitated toward it.

Stacey, i think you didn't really need to make that kind of case for HBK because he's not the hardest figure to grasp. he's a walking referendum on melodrama & drawn-out theatrics & convincing offense - it's easy to see how he could be #1 for someone who marks out over #1 & 2 and doesn't care about #3. basically you did fine and should stay in the podcast game also thanks to Steven & Dylan & co. even if i didn't participate, i've loved following the years of discussion this project spawned!

well, if you've ever read a post of mine here, my opinion on this shouldn't be hard to guess strongly agree that this would be a useful subforum. this board does get some criticism for trending overly old & white & Southern in its topics, and i think there's plenty of discussion to be had in areas that aren't so "Pro Wrestling Only". really, the idea of talking about an artform solely within the context of its own bubble has been rapidly dying elsewhere. long overdue here, i think. i've been apprehensive about making more in-depth posts here as of late, since they didn't seem to fit the mission of the site. i guess in retrospect that may have been from GWE further taking over the forum, but i'm still really glad to see this =) BuryWindham: the argument is that the roots of a given style are what matter most for its development. lucha evolved more or less independently of American influence for many decades, creating something that's much harder for us to grasp and relate to. a further point in favor of the argument is all the other facets of Japanese pop culture that caught on in the west: cartoons, comic books, video games, horror films, etc. you can tie all of that to the same "cultural imperialism"/"American roots" point. and yes, to fxnj & co., there has been plenty written about enjoying problematic media. i know plenty of "SJWs" who still stand by the likes of Punch-Out & Doom and can damn well explain why that's not hypocritical. i do think certain elements of classic territory wrestling won't age well with this sort of crowd, which is a fascinating conversation in itself...but you don't have to write off the entirety of it as garbage.

"average man on the street" is a pretty awful standard for plenty of things, and i think something at the level of this project is among those. i can also easily put forth a coherent argument for Giant Gonzalez over Daniel Bryan, if you so desire. people's issue with less mainstream candidates falling was that it seemed to reflect a lack of footage exposure on the part of the silent majority. i think it was overreacting, but i understand the basic sentiment. i am sympathetic to the argument that this came off as patronizing, but that doesn't seem to be the point here. PROTIP: "hipster" isn't a real thing

wait dorada didn't even come close to the 100 i thought

i secretly kinda like Bryan Clarke for whatever reason his match with Mabel from one of the early IYHs (maybe even the first one?) is one of my favorite quick squash matches ever, especially given who was in it. for whatever reason, Clarke decided to completely work his *ass* off for those 2 minutes. seriously, check it out!

i thought the Kobashi backlash wasn't so much about the head drops (since that would apply to all the pillars), but more about the later Chopbashi stuff and viewing his character work as hammy.

well, people normally point to 2007 as Cena's best year, with stuff like the Umaga match at the Rumble. if you don't dig that, there may not be much hope. can totally understand that though, i still say that some of Cena's "great" selling reminds me of Reb Brown in Space Mutiny

relevant point nobody's mentioned yet: Bockwinkel made the top 10 US-born wrestlers! #1-6: Funk, Hansen, Flair, Bryan, Rey, Lawler #7: Eddie #8: Vader #9: Steamboat #10: Bock that's a pretty big win for Bock and Lawler tbh

i think for a lot of people, the results are just a proxy for the amount of effort put in by the masses. they were hoping others would explore more unfamiliar styles the way they did, and some of these results don't really suggest that.

I doubt that, Joshi is a pretty dead style and its prime is even further in the rear view mirror, I can't imagine there will be some sort of Joshi review, unless its something like LLPW which wasn't beaten to death by guys in the 90. you're missing on a couple larger points here: 1. WWE taking women's wrestling seriously. if they stick with it, you're going to see more people take an interest in what came before it. it's also going to produce a generation of new female hardcore fans. 2. feminism is eventually going to become a real factor in our circle, like it's already doing with basically every other nerd fandom. there will be re-evaluations of the joshi style and the circumstances that developed it, and there will be more people refusing to rank sexual predators on principle. knowing how wrestling is, it'll probably be like 5 years from now...but it *will* happen eventually. 1. May be true. I hope it's true, even though I sort of hate the top-down model of "join the power structure to beat the power structure!" of change that such a thing implies. 2. Is already happening, but it's had little effect on how people think or talk about the Joshi of the past up until this point. To be perfectly frank the rape pornish elements of something like Chiggy v. Dump is something that isn't likely to play with many feminist either, and that's something that shouldn't be undersold. Someone like Kudo is rated even by many of the predominantly male critics of the Joshi style, but the last time I tried to watch a Kudo death match in the presence of a self-identified feminist woman it was met with total disgust, and a long discussion about what the existence of such a match said about women in wrestling and male wrestling fans (note that this was maybe two months ago). I understand what you are saying, but your point seems heavily dependent on the idea that feminism is a monolith and that feminism is a sort of "static" position that is fully fleshed out, rather than a constantly evolving egalitarian impulse that adjusts to situational realities. A far more interesting thing to think about is whether or not feminism (or perhaps more accurately feminists) will shape or influence the depiction and characterization of wrestling talent (male and female) in the years ahead in significant ways. Thinking along these lines I actually think it is far more likely that current female performers on all scales and in all locations (Hojo, Asuka, Bayley, Banks, Lovelace, Athena, et) will receive measurable support in 2026, than it is that many of the old Joshi performers will have their profiles resurrected. I say this in part because I think Joshi may be subject to feminist critique in certain cases (see Kudo, Chiggy/Dump, et.) and partially because social movements tend to exalt those who are presumed to have emerged from within them at the expense of those who are seen as predecessors of sorts who may not have been ideal representatives for one reason or another. this is really good stuff, i just dashed out that post real quickly because i'm at work. =P may be able to give some more nuanced thoughts tonight. for now i'll just say that i'm thinking of what you could call "Silicon Valley Feminism", the sort you see most often on Twitter and such. that's what really appears to be catching on with younger generations.

I doubt that, Joshi is a pretty dead style and its prime is even further in the rear view mirror, I can't imagine there will be some sort of Joshi review, unless its something like LLPW which wasn't beaten to death by guys in the 90. you're missing on a couple larger points here: 1. WWE taking women's wrestling seriously. if they stick with it, you're going to see more people take an interest in what came before it. it's also going to produce a generation of new female hardcore fans. 2. feminism is eventually going to become a real factor in our circle, like it's already doing with basically every other nerd fandom. there will be re-evaluations of the joshi style and the circumstances that developed it, and there will be more people refusing to rank sexual predators on principle. knowing how wrestling is, it'll probably be like 5 years from now...but it *will* happen eventually.

agree with all of this! i just meant that there's an easy way to spin those placings for the unfamiliar. Luchaundead, the difference there is length of career. Brock just doesn't have a whole lot of meat to his resume, and we may be seeing diminishing returns with his act as we speak. there's been a lot of backlash ever since the Suplex City crap took off - i personally have found him a lot less interesting since then.

Jmare, that's a good point. i guess i shouldn't have said "anonymous", more like "non-PWO regulars". people bring up AJ Styles in the top 40 but i think when people look at this list even a couple years from now, the poor ranking of the women will be far and away the most embarrassing part. Brock in the top 50 will also be up there - guys like Hogan & Dusty are more understandable when you realize not everyone was voting just on in-ring work, but Brock doesn't have anywhere near their track record as a draw. i've been pleasantly surprised with the list aside from those issues, mind you!

i think the point people like pol made was that this list doesn't reflect the threads and other posts here, and those posts generally came from the people who watched the most footage for this. someone earlier brought up the example of Brock making it onto like 110 ballots, when his thread was mixed at best, as a sign of an anonymous mass of voters who didn't fully participate in the process. honestly, i'm not sure how much of a difference better stumping would've made - opening up the project beyond this forum inherently brings in a bunch of people who won't care about any of it. maybe it could've worked for joshi because that style would have the most natural appeal to modern smart fans, idk

went back to the indies for a little bit, gave his gimmick to someone there, became a computer programmer IIRC. i think Meltzer said he was the only person to win Rookie of the Year in the WON then get out of the business by next year.

yall are forgetting a big factor with Scott Steiner: Botchamania! seriously, when i think of those videos, the first two names that come to mind are Sabu & Scott Steiner. and that stuff is quite well-known even among non-wrestling fans, so i'd expect it to make a big impression on modern fans.

alright, for once i have some time before work so i'll bring up a different angle here... i think maybe my issue isn't with the formula itself, so much as the lack of variety in the surrounding atmosphere/bells & whistles. to go to one of my wacky video-game analogies, i'm interested in arcade beat-em-ups (Double Dragon, Final Fight, that kind of stuff). in terms of play mechanics that's one of the simplest & most formulaic genres there is, but game developers realized this and used a wide variety of themes and aesthetics to make their game stand out. they run the gamut from your generic "gangsters on the streets" to Dungeons & Dragons to this delightful collection of surrealist pixel art. it seems like pro wrestling just doesn't offer the same kind of room for variety in that regard, and that could be what's hurting it for me. i thought maybe part of it was the characters' motivations being so heavily rooted in a traditional masculinity that i have no time for anymore, but that wouldn't explain why i still dig so many video games that have the same issue. so, i go back to the above paragraph! i recall hearing somewhere that Kana(?) used to do matches with jazz music playing the whole time. i can't find it anywhere, but that's the sort of thing i'm getting at. i'm also tempted to watch Lucha Underground since that's set in an outright fantasy world. anything else along those lines yall can suggest?

~40 IIRC

i never got that vibe from Nakamura, but i've spent way too much time analyzing parts of Japanese pop culture. gender presentation is awfully different there. a particularly key concept is that in Japan, grace & elegance can be seen as part of masculinity. those qualities are often brought up in discussions of Japan's equivalents to Genghis Khan or Lu Bu, in part because they're seen as reflective of technique. that's an area where i think you can draw a parallel with Nakamura, as his striking skill is what sets him apart from other pro wrestlers. you have to remember, a whole generation of WWE fans grew up on Final Fantasy games starring skinny emo dudes with spiky hair & giant swords. Nakamura is an act that will play great to them, but less so to the house-show crowds.

puts you above OJ for Tibor Szakacs or Johnny Sorrow for Garea =P

it's basically just owens vs. zayn, with the need to give more guys a WM payday i guess

i think cena will get a #1 vote so i aint buyin that one from yall

they would be shocked and that would keep them on their toes for future matches. ideally, if they truly hated the heel, it would lead to greater hatred & more heat. i remember reading somewhere that this sort of thing was the reason for Bryan-Sheamus at WM being such a quick squash. WWE noticed that crowds weren't buying into all the early finishers in WM matches, so they ran that finish to make those spots more effective in future matches. i actually think that's a brilliant idea if true, but the problem was in the execution: doing it on the biggest show instead of on smaller shows building up to it, and cheating the fans out of a potentially great match on that biggest stage. the other problem is that you need to keep doing things like that once in a while, or else you go back to square one like we have now. it's a shame they screwed it up that badly, though, because that is exactly the spirit i'd like to see. i've got more to post later, but NXT is coming on so i'll stop it here

to address this and JvK's response below this post, i would simply argue that the opinions of fans who've watched thousands of matches are a better basis than the opinions of wrestlers. it's a matter of trusting outsiders more than insiders, if you will. some degree of "canon" is unavoidable, but not all sources of it are created equal.