GOTNW

Well there was psychology (let's do more of the kick-out at 1 and no selling spots everyone loved the first time), I just thought the logic behind it was terrible and it was extremely cheap and uninteresting. And I've seen hundreds of matches worked in the same vein get it right so I'm not going to be impressed just because they did shoot headbutt spots and ignore all the structural and selling issues. Bingo.

I am a pretty big fan of them both but if your match has no psychology and selling it can't be good. It's impossible. Even if there is a bunch of no-selling you stil have to have more selling than no-selling otherwise it loses its effect and point.

The replay with japanese commentary is up on world so I guess the "usual places" should have it by now.

There is no ultimate consensus on what a good or a bad wrestling match is. Of course when I say it's one of the worst wrestling matches I've ever seen that's according to my taste and what I value in wrestling. I don't really understand why some think the only way a match could be truly terrible is if it's lacking in execution (in the sense of bumping/hitting moves clean etc.).

The "worst match ever" in terms of the wrestler's ability to do things properly trained wrestlers should know how to and value when critically evaluating other wrestlers' work more than regular fans is some backyard match from god knows when or where. I seriously doubt anyone would come to the conclusion that's what I'm talking about. Actually-that's not how I view or analyze wrestling period. I don't care if someone's sloppy or unprofessional or bumps to the side or whatever. If it works for me, it works.

I really envy your wrestling catalog of matches/shows you've seen then! Hell, did you watch all of this card? You thought that was the worst match on this card? Worse than anything WWE has done, including their Divas, or TNA or XPW? lol.. Yes. I don't expect the Divas, XPW, TNA or fat guys from Virginia to be competent. Here are two guys who aren't just competent, they're excellent athletes, capable of doing great things and even showing glimpses of wrestling greatness and they just shit the bed. I can't envision anything worse than a much so frustrating because it could be good but is just so poorly and predictably structured and executed.

I thought Shibata vs Ishii was a terrible match. I can tolerate a lot of fighting spirit stuff, as Masato Tanaka and Tatsuhito Takaiwa matches are still in the realm of the japanese wrestling I love, but when you no sell pretty much everything how am I supposed to care about the match? The fact it was the third time they'd done this exact match didn't help.

It's my honest opinion. It bored me to death and I didn't buy into any of the nearfalls. My least favourite style of pro-wrestling are Shawn Michaels vs Triple H epics and this was the worst possible version of that. It had a couple good moments (Okada's big splash and the Dropkick HFF counter) but I honestly thought it went something like 50 minutes. It just wouldn't end.

Okada-Tanahashi was one of the worst matches I've ever watched. Maybe the worst.

O'Connor will make my list. The Rogers match is an all time classic, he looked great in every match he was in upped on the Chicago Film Archives and was good at playing a heel in the Rikidozan match (in which he also does maybe the greatest sell ever for Rikidozan's Kesagiri Chop). As far as his All Japan old man stuff there's a recently upped match vs. Mighty Inoue which serves as a wonderful showcase for his matwork, the Mantell/Jumbo tag where he was easily the best performer in the match and significantly enrichened it with his interferences and the Murdoch match which has already been discussed plenty.

Did he invent thigh slapping?

Misawa vs. Takada would be another one.

That's an Axe Guillotine Driver actually, completely different move than either the Emerald Flowsion or Sheamus' move

Terrible Mutoh performance, which is a shame since their 1990 match was great. He blew pretty much every spot he could. Finish was fun but this had Mutoh in control for like 90% of the match which was a terrible choice. Uneventful. Highlight of the match was the announcer talking about the symbolism behind the colours of their ring shoes.

Kansai will probably make my list so w/e. I thought the Kong match was perfect. I've really loved what I've seen of her so she'll definitely be in consideration.

Think it would make for an interesting discussion so: Vince McMahon http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/27033-steve-austin-vince-mcmahon-vs-the-rock-d-lo-brown-wwf-monday-night-raw-051198/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28086-steve-austin-vs-vince-mcmahon-wwf-st-valentines-day-massacre-021499-cage-match/ http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/29907-hhh-vs-vince-mcmahon-wwf-armageddon-121299/?hl=%2Bvince+%2Bmcmahon&do=findComment&comment=5706877

I liked him in Lucha Underground but it's questionable whether he was even a top 5 performer during the first season, off the top of my head I'd easily rank Pentagon Jr., Muertes, Fenix and Puma over him. It would be a key part of his case if someone were to rank him but if you're that open minded and seriously invest time in seeking out new wrestling I don't see how you come up with a conclusion John Morrison is among 100 best wrestlers ever. But hey, people were making cases for Sheamus here and that sounds almost equally insane to me so....

I'm pretty sure Zrno is the only one that was actually great at it unless you're super high on Nikolai Volkoff, Paul Diamond and The Great Antonio. I'm not much in terms of euro wrestling knowledge but I figure I'd have at least recognized a name or a surname by now if there was more.

Only way he makes it is if WWE is the only promotion you've ever watched.

I'll just keep doing these: Shinya Hashimoto vs Keiji Mutoh-NJPW 10.12.1993. Hash-Mutoh is an intriguing match-up, one that should be great but you always have to be weary of Mutoh dogging it. I remember enuhito mentioning in an article Masa Funaki said Mutoh as the best shootfighter in New Japan back in the day which amused me since I always saw Mutoh's matwork more as a philosophical choice than a demonstration of skill (he mentioned in an interview beginning matches with ground wrestling was Inoki's and his style and that Choshu basically invented the modern puro style due to his impatience). Though I take his comments with a grain of salt since Mutoh and Funaki are buddies and Mutoh was also his employer at the time. I mostly liked the matwork here, Mutoh is often guilty of just grabbing a limb and spacing out but here it felt like a fight for control. Hash firing himself up after Mutoh had dominated him was awesome. I'd say this was in the same vein as famous NewJa matches like Mutoh/Chono and the Hase/Sasaki-Mutoh/Chono tag in that it was mostly about the finishing stretch, and it more than delivered here, just great drama all around. Faveourite moment was probably Hashimoto gradually accelerating his breathing before spinning heel kicking Mutoh into oblivion. Shinya Hashimoto, Keiji Mutoh, Steve Regal, Manabu Nakanishi & Kensuke Sasaki vs Masahiro Chono, Scott Norton, Marcus Bagwell, nWo sting & Hiroyoshi Tenzan-NJPW 20.3.1997. Super fun elimination match, watching NewJa fans eat up Buff Bagwell's shtick was hilarious as were some of the eliminations, Hashimoto was as great as you'd expect him to be, particularly at the end when he was fighting off multiple people by himself which isn't something you'd usually see from him. Shinya Hashimoto & Junji Hirata vs Yoshihiro Takayama & Yoji Anjoh-NJPW 25.2.1996. Wonderful match, Takayama and Anjoh play great dick heels, making fun of Hirata's SSM gimmick, Hashimoto is the ultimate badass, every time he enters the ring the momentum of the match completely shifts, really wish this style of tag team wrestling with more focus on extended control segments, cutting off the ring and just generally trying to win was more prominent today, there's no reason to stand on the apron and look around when your partner's pinned after a big move. Shinya Hashimoto & Riki Choshu vs The Great Muta & Masahiro Chono-NJPW 6.7.1997. This is basically Hogan & Cena vs Austin & Rock in terms of charisma, not even Mutoh and Chono could fuck this up, this was more of a Choshu showcase but I am a gigantic Choshu fan so I was more than fine with it, Hash performed his role really well, saving Choshu and cleaning the ring with A+ offence. Shinya Hashimoto, Riki Choshu & Junji Hirata vs Masahiro Chono, Hiroyoshi Tenzan & Hiro Saito-NJPW 12.2.1995. I saw a write up on this match on a DVDVR some time ago and it sounded incredible. Boy did it deliver. Complete carnage, everyone hates everyone, Choshu and Hash DEMOLISH Tenzan, just murdering him with kicks and lariats, everyone's brawling at ringside, hitting each other with chairs and anything they can get their hands on, they continue brawling after the match, then after everything clears up and they're seperated Choshu attacks the ref, THEN they cut angry promos and shittalk each other backstage and almost get into it again. Shinya Hashimoto, Keiji Mutoh & Masahiro Chono vs The Great Kabuki, Shiro Koshinaka & Kengo Kimura-NJPW 16.2.1993. I was disappointed with this one, not sure how I'd rate it, I really enjoyed the beginning and finish but the meat of the match completely lost me, I am a huge Koshinaka and Kabuki fan but this wasn't their finest hour, Kimura I also like but he seemed totally washed up here, Mutoh didn't give a shit and Chono only started giving a shit at the end. It's not even that Koshinaka and Kabuki put on bad performances, Koshinaka actually put on a good one, but it just wasn't enough. This was good whenever Hashimoto was in the ring, any time he'd tag in I'd wake up from a half-slumber. Basically if this were Hashimoto working a handicap match against Koshinaka and Kabuki it would've ruled. But alas. This did make me want to check out more Hashimoto vs. Koshinaka. Shinya Hashimoto & Masa Saito vs Dusty Rhodes Jr. & Scott Norton-NJPW 4.1.1993. Good match, enjoyed them smacking each other but it wasn't anything special, the Hashimoto in peril segment went on for too long, Dustin looked like the worst worker here, messing up a few times and doing a comical sell of Hashimoto's Lariat. Still if you want to see grown men chest slap each other a lot this is the stuff. Shinya Hashimoto vs The Great Oz-NJPW 17.5.1992. I had no idea Hashimoto wrestled KEVIN NASH. Kevin Nash is not very good at the wrestling. This wasn't very good but it wasn't bad either. Solid use of my time, Nash busting out a leapfrog and a high kick was hilarious, Hash sold for him big due to his size but Nash's offence wasn't much, highlight of the match was Hash waking up the crowd at the end by firing up and kicking and DDTing Nash into oblivion, great finish to a match that felt a lot more cohesive than I'd expected, Hash didn't seem to get lost working goofs most other wrestlers would have trainwrecks against. Shinya Hashimoto vs Bill Kazmaier-NJPW 4.1.1992. Boy nothing says "great and accomplished pro wrestler" like having to figure out how katakana converts to roman letters and going "WHO?". Anyway, this guy.....Bill.........this guy Bill was kind of a powerlifter/strongman world champion yadda yadda. He looked somewhat charismatic here but didn't bring much, Hashimoto played a great face in peril and got the crowd behind him really well and then made a good looking comeback. Solid match, but a really impressive Hash carry-job, especially when you consider how Bill couldn't even take a proper back bump by himself the two times in the match he needed to for the Suimengiris.

One thing I feel I need to add is none of the guys are at that level of charisma [as they are now]. Looking at WWF TV from 1998 The Rock did not look like a superstar trading wins with Ken Shamrock for the IC title. He only "got it" when they spontaneously turned him and put him over Kane and Taker. He transformed into a completely different performer and when they ran a match vs Shamrock again when he was a face the crowd was eating out of the palm of his hand. You'd think with how much they rely on him they'd at least try to remember that this big movie star only got "it" during his push. But alas...

What is "it" anyway other then a meta term for "I don't like this guy". None of these goofs are Rock/Choshu/Santo in terms of charisma, someone's gotta main event. And even a guy like Ambrose who has a huge cult following has been ruined by terrible booking and mismanaging (I will note I think his ring work has been terrible for at least a year but that just raises more questions about the WWE get-your-shit-in style). Bryan seemed like "just a guy" in 2010 and ended up as the most over guy on the roster. Things only matter as much as you present them to and that's where WWE does a terrible job.

You can say it was "go away heat" but people cared about it. Miz generated heat, Sheamus generates apathy. That's at least how I see it. And I think the backlash was more for the Miz-Cena program, more specifically on how they underperformed at Wrestlemania (and later in that I-Quit or whatever match, but Miz's run was done by that point).

They should push Miz to the moon again then. They should. Miz is the kind of guy everyone will shit on but won't get I-don't care-go away heat like Sheamus.

Really neat find on World, lasts only a couple minutes but it's still completely badass, it's catch-based as you'd expect and features lots of throws and escapes that I haven't seen before that were probably "lost", a great clean finish which isn't what I was expecting either, really wish we had more of Gotch on tape, watching these two go at it was a privilege. Great post-match selling from Fujiwara too.