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I think he has a slew of good matches on the indies before he signed with AEW, many of which at the time felt like he was overachieving. In hindsight, not so much. His trajectory has taken a pretty stark upward turn since becoming an AEW wrestler, particularly in 2021. He is absolutely running away with my WOTY (so far). Now, don't worry... I'm not trying to get ahead of myself here. But there is reason to be optimistic that he could have a very solid case in 5 years. I don't even think he has to continue on this path. Honestly, if he wound up with 5 years that looked like his last 5 months, he probably be a lock top 50 at least for me, but that isn't reasonable for a variety of reasons and shouldn't be the standard. He just needs to maintain form somewhere in this vicinity of... lets say his average for the past year. If I were making a list today he would probably miss it. However, I can't think of anyone higher on my list of people who could make massive jumps into the last in the next 5 years.

I suppose I could fathom an orientation to wrestling that wasn't exclusively into WWE, but would certainly be very WWE centric, that would place Kane in a top 100. It isn't my orientation, but I could imagine it. I enjoyed the very early stages of the Kane run and there were things here and there I enjoyed form him, but I doubt I'll personally spend much time thinking about him unless someone makes a really compelling case.

I find a lot of the details above interesting, but I have never really thought of the concept as having a particular narrative or dynamic inherent to it. I've always just used it and thought if it as a shortcut to refer to how intertwined they are in general discourse about each. It is hard to think/talk about the career or Kobashi without thinking/talking about and in turn comparing him to Misawa, Taue, and Kawada. It is hard to think/talk about the career of Kawada without.... you get the point. There probably is too much emphasis on that, but that does seem to be a hard to shake.

He always felt like a guy I wanted to like more than I did. I don't think he was bad, esp when he was on, but even at his best he never quite clicked with me. He strikes me as someone who is indeed pretty good at everything. He understands the parts of being a good pro wrestler, but it usually felt flat or lifeless. I almost think those words are too harsh for what I mean, but I don't have better ones. It is actually a relatively rare phenomenon, but he isn't the only wrestler I feel this way about. Lots of the boxes get checked for me to enjoy his work, but I rarely feel more than "fine" about it and I'm never exited by it or interested in seeking it out. Maybe I'll dip my toes into his work at some point to see if I feel differently about it, because as I said, I want to like him. Who knows.

Yeah... 5 years is a long time. I remember in the 2016 project I felt weird having Kobashi as my #1. I certainly wasn't alone, but it felt like there were more vocal champions for the other pillars and that often came in the form of discourse that felt strangely anti-kobashi. I was dropping into these conversations out of nowhere so I didn't have the long history and background of discussion on the matter. In a vacuum it felt weird and for a minute I thought I was missing something haha. It does feel a little like Kobashi is sort of positioned as the default 1 among the pillars right now, at least int he circles I frequent, but that is far from set in stone. I suspect the pillars conversations will ebb and flow. Some of it will be because Kobashi (and at least Misawa and Kawada, but probably Taue and Akyama as well) is going to face a lot of scrutiny as a #1 contender. Some of it will be because each has their champions and compelling cases will be made. Some of it will be because there is 5 freaking years haha. As I am typing this I can't help but wonder how the direct comparisons help or hurt their cases. Obviously much of each man's case is built on matches with each other, but it is so hard to talk about Kobashi without comparing him to the other pillars (who are all different but are all high bars for comparison). I'm sure that was talked to death last time as well though.

Working #2 and it is almost a coin flip between Kobashi and Bryan for the top spot. I really don't have much to say about him that hasn't been said 100 times. I will however be interested in the scrutiny that he will surely face. I'm just not sure I'm going to be very good at applying it myself.

haha awesome Yeah, I agree here. I think he is a fairly unique combination of traits and skills. There is definitely like an aura and narrative around him. I hear a lot of people praise him in a way that makes me think he leaves an impression on you the first time you dive into his time/place in wrestling. He stands out with his stooging, bumping, look, personality, etc. I hope I bring myself to dive in a bit and give him a chance. There are enough matches/feuds that stand out in my memory to give him that much in the next 5 YEARS

I see a couple on there not available on youtube/dailymotion. I'll check those out soon. I'm not a cool kid who knows all the archives, so I've still had trouble finding about half his UWF matches. I have enjoyed what I have seen from him in that setting. The sample size is small of course and I don't think he was quiet doing it long enough to really hit his stride, but he flashed in the Anjo match and the 6/11/88 yamazaki match. It also isn't so much that I'd put him on my list if he had 9 matches like those as much as it is building a fairly intersting case around diversity of performance over time. I also should check out the WAR stuff apparently. Sounds dope.

Smiley is someone I'd like to give some serious consideration to if i can get my hands the lion's share of his shoot style work in Japan. I've only been able to find a couple of matches and I really enjoyed them. He could be a dark horse for my list of the footage is available.

Gordy is a weird one to me. I think he is really talented, but I feel like that talent didn't translate into great matches as much as it should or could have. I like quite a bit of what he did with Hansen, a lot of the freebird stuff, and the sporadic singles banger. He would probably do better on a "favorites" list, but I could see him sneaking in the back part of my list. I named my dog after him so if I dedicate any of those final spots to sentimental picks he would be a front runner for that.

Yeah... I'm going to need someone to deep dive on this. I'm not nearly familiar enough with exoticos and this is exactly the kind of discussion that could draw me to more Goldberg talk.

When I saw Goldberg get bumped up a few days ago I started a response. It wound up being way longer than I wanted or it needed to be for a wrestler I don't like very much... or at least not as much as most. I'll try to boil it down to a few points that may be relevant. - Great unique offense! - The streak was great. - There are a few matches that I enjoy to some degree or another, but after the streak lost some steam (a little earlier for me than most I think) I just don't find him that interesting, even in the ring. I really wish they had added some dimensions to him. I just ultimately got bored with him. EDIT: This I think is my biggest thing. I just don't see any evolution in who or what Goldberg was (his motivations, weaknesses, emotions, etc). To me he is the same in 2018 as he was in 1998, but he just brings his kid in the ring. That translates to the ring in my eyes. The offense is explosive and great... awesome, but I'm not really on the hook for anything. - I know there has been a general Goldberg reclamation narrative since his return, but aside from the Brock mania match and to a much lesser degree the drew match this most recent on again off again run has done nothing for me. The squashes aren't really all that fun or interesting to me. I know booking isn't his fault and lots of people love what he brought, but it felt forced and like it did more harm than good. - I would love to have Kadavari's perspective on the Taker match and maybe one day I'll bring myself to watch it again and try to put those glasses on, but I that match is a nightmare to me: bad, dangerous, sad, hard to watch in the worst way possible. - All told, Goldberg had raw talent and presence. Maybe he is an ultimate "what if" (but I also think he might have had a lot to do with why he didn't reach is potential), but what Goldberg doesn't do a lot for me on the whole. I have tried. I have really tried to get in on the wave of Goldberg love, but I think he is one of the most massive under-performing wrestlers I can think of. He was given the wrestling world (and still is sometimes) and rarely has he done as much as he should/could with it in my eyes. I think this is why Goldberg is one of the only wrestlers that I sort of actively dislike.

Love seeing the Kandori love. She is my #1 female wrestler ever and will be absurdly high for me (like silly high to some folks). I'll come back with a more complete defense/discussion of why later, but I'm glad to see some early praise.

Missed this watch party, but I need to dig on her. I am well open to her being on the list, but am a little skeptical of her placement. Undeniable talent that I am somewhat familiar with, but need a deeper dive on given what I am seeing/hearing and what I know I don't know. I honestly hope I am wrong, because she is a wrestler I would love to put on my list and be able to go to bat for.

I always preferred Becky to Charlotte and Bayley. That isn't a knock on either of them. I like both, but for a while Becky felt like she was the clear "4th" among the horsewomen and I really saw her and Sasha as the strongest overall performers. Their NXT title match might be my favorite women's match on that brand. She has a number of good+ matches on the main and obviously hit a real stride character wise that found its way into the ring work itself in positive ways from time to time. I liked the main even triple threat. It really needs to be watched back because that show as so draining. It almost isn't fair to judge it in the moment. I haven't seen the early stuff. I would say Becky is among quite a few modern female wrestlers that I would like to a little dive on to see how they stack up. Some of my issue has been investment and some access (both fixable problems). I'm not sure she gets onto my list based just on her NXT and WWE work to this point. I probably LIKE Becky more than I see her as a legit top 100 at this moment. If it were a favorites I'd say she has a pretty good shot at the back half. Its a best, so I think she could still be in the running if her next 5 years or so are good and the early stuff holds up.

You have turned me onto a lot of matches, but that is one of the absolute best.

I like Ishii quite a bit. I think he brings a little more variety and nuance to the table than some might be giving him credit for. Not to say everyone will love him. I can certainly see the criticism. However, I think his G1s generally show what he can do. When you see him work a variety of opponents back to back to back some of the different ways he works with folks pop a little more to me. I like the strong style and the sort of cathartic tough guy stuff sometimes so he is kind of a high floor candidate to me. Not sure he makes my list, but he is another I really want to explore a good bit more.

I've really enjoyed what I have seen from Otsuka. He has some high end singles matches. I need to dig in a bit more, especially to the tags before I can say for sure, but he has a shot at the back 1/3rd of my list I think.

I was going to say something similar to what childs posted. It wasn't like his entire run was littered with these long drawn out matches. It is somewhat a matter of taste, but I went back and revisited a lot of the stuff he did from that time about a year or two ago and it held up much better than I thought. Even that 50+ minute roddy match that has taken a beating here was better than I recall. I'm not saying it will be everyone's cup of tea or that that it was must see, but I liked it more than I remember and was sort of dreading the rewatch. I would also add that there needs to be some clarity on an important distinction. Are people anti-long matches or is the argument that Bryan was bad at them? I don't think he was the most refined long match worker, but I would say he is generally pretty good at working a longer match that unfolds in compelling ways. It is no easy task. In turn, I sort of stand by my original take on it. If he has a sin that is it. It does bring some matches down just a notch at least (for example, off the top of my head I think the last morishima match would have been better if it were 3-6 minutes shorter). But I don't see it as a real negative given the context and the fact that I think I'm a bit higher than some clearly are on those.

It is hard to say who is in real contention for #1 on my list at this point, but El Hijo del Santo currently ranks in my top 10 and is probably JUST inside my real considerations for #1 at this point. I'll entertain a lot more in the next 5 years (the more I say five years the more daunting this becomes), but that REAL consideration is different. At some point in the past 6-7 years I went from thinking he was great but probably a bit down my list of luchadors to thinking his work was more or less undeniable. I think it was an input/output thing for me. At a certain point the output just outweighed the input and then I started to appreciate all the things he was doing in a match that I might have nitpicked before. I really can't think of anyone outside of the other #1 contenders for me that I feel more confident in when I pull up a match or especially when someone recommends something. I KNOW if someone says "check out this great del santo match" I am going to love it. His highs are that high and that reliable. His timing is elite. He is fluid. His physical storytelling is on par with anyone. He captures a lot of what I associate with Lucha, including that emphasis on timing as well as the super-heroness (as mentioned by bennyowens) of his work. Right now he is my #1 luchador (maybe Satanico could jump him) and he is firmly in my top 10.

To me, Eddie is the greatest peak wrestler. All that means is that when Eddie was at his absolute best I don't think anyone has ever been better. Unfortunately, that high praise is brought down to earth by not only the big gaps in his work, but also in the fact that he couldn't hit that peak too many times or maintain it for very long (for any number of reasons). A complete performer who excelled in a variety of settings. He would probably rank higher in my favorites than "best", but he will place very well for me.

As Bryan is my working #1. Quentin's write-up is a good one and I like the Duncan/Jordan analogy. I don't think his case is really going to be built on "being the best for 20 years" so much as it will be built on all the more nuanced things that make that the catch-all way folks talk about him. As some of pointed out, its a totality thing. He probably wouldn't be my #1 every year for the last 20, but in years he wrestled he also probably wouldn't be lower than 10 in any given year. He is a high floor wrestler who has a lot of folks best matches (or at least one of their top hand full of matches. He scores highly in elevating others (he had bangers with Wyatt twice as both hillbilly messiah AND the Fiend for christ sake). His success in the WWE is really - to me - the biggest line on his resume for something like this. Not only does he have good to elite matches with - off the top of my head - Cena, Reigns, Punk, Sheamus, Wyatt, HHH, Orton, Styles, Brock, and Kingston, but he also has TWO great mania main event triple threats (high degree of difficulty) and was in a successful tag team with Kane that actually was fun to watch. This is all while not really being the kind of guy one associates with success in the WWE. This latter point was truer in the early part of his career, but even as more of his peers got there, Bryan is relatively small and does not have the same overt charisma. He is exceptionally likable, has become a great promo, and maybe his unique brand of charisma helped him ultimately, but he was far from crowned in advance. His work in ring is what got him over in a company that conventional wisdom up to his arrival said he wouldn't get over and has kept him as the center of attention. Bryan is also the guy they put in when they need to elevate something, get some momentum, or ensure a quality match. I think you can see that in the patterns of how they use him and when they add him to things. I think you have to add this to him being good from the start. I personally think very highly of his ROH run and other indie runs and I think it all holds up better than I assumed it would. However, his greatest sin in my eyes is probably doing too much or having excessively long matches at points in his career, but I see those as 1) still quite enjoyable and 2) part of a much broader trend in indie wrestling at the time where all the top wrestlers were experimenting with style and genre a lot and trying out new things to set them and the entire indie scene apart. I suppose that is always the case with indie wrestling, but the 2000 indie scene still has a different feel to it in terms of the way folks were explicitly pulling from different places and times in wrestling history. In turn, I see it more as a symptom of the time than a knock on Bryan. most of those don't do a ton to BUILD his case, but they also just don't drag it down much because I still find a lot to enjoy. I have used this analogy before. The first few years and maybe even like the first 6 or so years of Bryan's career feel like his first album. They are rough around the edges, far from polished, but you can see him, his personality, and his vision in them. I often look at wrestling this way to be honest. Even in what I consider to be a "great match". It might have "flaws", but I relate to it or I see something in it that is exciting and compelling. At the risk of getting too cliche, it has soul. That is why I think Bryan v Ki is such a great rivalry in 2001-2 that produces - for me - legit some of the best matches ever. I'm not sure I could make a compelling case on a second by second basis as to why those hold up with more commonly accepted great matches, but there is an intangible in them that I think comes from them being in the "first album" stage of their career. Those matches also just happen to have a little more balance to them so they stand out even among his other early classics. The question itself sort of stacks the deck against an answer. I know (or think) Elliott isn't intending to say he has to be THE best for all 20 years, but proving the shorthand praise (which is what "he has been the best for 20 years" is) will never be really possible. Yeah, some folks are going to think Kobashi or Joe beat him in some years, some with think Eddie topped him for a year or two, and some will have the NJPW crew ahead of him in the more recent past, but I'm not sure those are going to be the same groups of people. Jmare007's point about taste is omnipresent here as well. Again, this doesn't mean I wont try to make the argument in more detail down the road, but to be perfectly redundant at this point haha, my gut tells me it will wind up sounding a little more like "when was he not rightfully in the conversation and look at the variety of ways he found himself in that conversation?" That is a little stream-of-conciousness-y. I intended on writing a short paragraph and... well... but it is all to say that I think his case will be built on a more micro level that, once built and you take a step back from, produces a really quality case for #1.

Yeah. I think she is a talented personality and a solid wrestler. She has been given a lot of really terrible stuff over the years and she seems to go out and do the best she can with it. However, I don't see her as a contender for my list. Nothing away from her at all, but unless her next five years are other worldly I'm not going to spend too much time pondering her candidacy.

I have only seen two matches of hers, the famed Aja match and a Hokuto match. Both were great (the aja one elite). From that I am interested in seeing more. I assume anyone who has those two matches isn't trash. However, I'm pretty sure Aja and Hokuto could have "fine" matches with me if they really wanted to at the time, so I need to dig in a little before I get carried away.

now we are talkin Are you the actual Cien Caras? I hope that you are are just as much as I hope that you are not. The contribution to this thread and then some broader conversations is going to be equally as interesting/productive either way.