Cap

Not much to add to this. This was probably exactly what it needed to be. That fall off the cart though was terrifying.

This was really the only match of the night that felt like it got properly unhinged a bit and they were really working with organic energy. The fall out of the ring and then the shots fired once they got back in, wonderful stuff. The KO finish really was a fun way to end this but also - more importantly - reinforced the world we were living in on a shoot show. This is exactly what I want from my modern shoot, tight grappling, slickness, some real aggression, and a feeling that this is a fight and fights are unpredictable. ****1/2

Loved this match. I agree that they sort of lost the plot near the end, trying too hard to make it magical and not just letting it be magical. The thing is, they sort of win me back with it and I get lost in the nonsense again. This is a match that probably coulda been an all timer if it remained a little more focused, but it also wound up being white hot and it is hard to argue with that. ****1/2 - Its sort of at the boarder between this and 4.75. I'll try to give it a rewatch. Regardless, this is in my top 3 MOTY so far.

Best 'mania match since HHH vs Bryan. It plaid on Kofi's strengths and really let him shine like he should and needed to. They sucked me in, convinced me that I didn't know what would happen at the end, convinced me Bryan was going to win, and then gave me the satisfying finish we all wanted. It was absolutely masterful in the layout. The execution was great. I think it can be hard to get a ton of emotion out of a big space like that, but these two made it look easy. ****3/4 - This is my current MOTY, sitting pretty close to two other matches I quite fancy. My gut tells me when I rewatch this nothing will change and this will still be the top bout coming out of the big weekend.

Yeah, I am glad we can work out the kinks and not feel like this is "THE LIST". Plus, tastes change, people will be exposed to new stuff, hopefully we will get new members with new opinions as we go, and there will always be new great matches.... so I think a yearly list will be interesting

I wouldn't worry about in fighting. Its a smaller project that I think has involved a little less emotional investment. Plus, I think the idea that we plan to do it every year to update our lists and continue watching new things helps a bit. It doesn't feel as final. Anything in the nominations is fair game. We are going to try to clean things up this summer. Honestly, it got away from all of us. The organization has been the biggest thing honestly. I know I have ZERO experience heading up anything like this. We are sort of going on the honors system. If you want to vote for something that is documented on the board and you think it has met the minimum qualifications for nomination (three votes for or one solid paragraph explaining the nomination from someone) go ahead. We aren't looking to keep matches out. With any luck this will be sorted a bit more clearly next time around. Be sure to get your votes in before the chaos starts this weekend. Ballots are closed at the end when the lights go out on Wrestlemania. If anyone has any questions message myself or another mod. I - for one - am over there (Cap) a good bit more while we close this out.

I just checked and the link worked for me. If anyone wants to vote and the link doesn't work let me know and I will work to make sure you get to access the form. Just in case. Here is another link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1bqltiXhrx0WcCnUKoy0Wg3Htvq54UpHsc90cA1_IjcQ/

I think my original list got lost somewhere in the board shuffle. i went to update it and couldn't find it. So here is my most recent list. Five Star Matches (*****) 1960s Gilbert Cesca vs Billy Catanzarro (1960s) 1970s Adrian Street vs Jim Breaks (2/12/1973) Steve Grey vs Clive Myers (11/20/1975, [air11/22/1975]) Terry Funk vs Jumbo Tsuruta (NWA Title – 6/11/1976) Billy Robinson vs Giant Baba (PWF Title – 7/24/1976) Billy Robinson vs Jumbo Tsuruta (NWA United National Title – 3/5/1977) Terry Funk vs Harley Race (NWA Title – 7/1/1977) 1980s Steve Grey vs Johnny Saint (1/28/1980 [air: 2/2/1980]) Pat Patterson vs Sgt. Slaughter (Alley Fight – 5/4/1981) Stan Hansen vs Andre The Giant (9/23/1981) Ricky Steamboat/Jay Youngblood vs Sgt. Slaughter/Don Kernodle (Cage Match – NWA Tag Titles – 3/12/1983) Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee (Loser Leaves Town – Southern Heavyweight Title – 6/6/1983) Greg Valentine vs Roddy Piper (7/9/1983) Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 (Hair vs Hair – 9/23/1983) Buzz Sawyer vs Tommy Rich (Cage Match – 10/23/1983) Sgt. Slaughter vs Iron Sheik (Bootcamp Match -6/1/1984) El Satanico vs Gran Cochise (NWA Middleweight Title – 9/14/1984) Ted Dibiase vs Jim Duggan (Loser Leaves Town – Coal Miners Glove – Tuxedo – Cage Match – 3/30/1985) Devil Masami vs Chigusa Nagayo (WWWA All Pacific Title – 8/22/1985) Tully Blanchard vs Magnum TA (Cage Match – US Title – 11/28/1985) Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee (Loser Leaves Town - Southern Heavyweight Title – 12/30/1985) Jumbo Tsaruta and Genichiro Tenryu vs Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu (NWA International Tag Titltes – 1/28/1986) Sangre Chicana vs Perro Aguayo (Hair vs Hair – 2/28/1986) El Hijo Del Santo vs Espanto Jr (Mask vs Mask – 8/31/1986) Jim Duggan vs Buzz Sawyer (No DQ – 11/11/1985) Nick Bockwinkel vs Curt Hennig (AWA Title – 11/21/1986) Stan Hansen vs Carlos Colon (Texas Bullrope Match – 1/6/1987) Stan Hansen/Terry Gordy vs Genichiro Tenryu/Toshiaki Kawada (AJ Tag Titles – Real World Tag Finals – 12/16/1988) Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat (NWA Title – 2/20/1989) Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat (NWA Title – 3/18/1989) Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat (2/3 Falls – NWA Title – 4/2/1989) Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu (Triple Crown Title – 6/5/1989) Ric Flair vs Terry Funk (NWA Title – 7/23/1989) 1990s El Dandy vs Angel Azteca (NWA Middleweight Title – 6/1/1990) Mitsuhara Misawa vs Jumbo Tsuruta (9/1/1990) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Nobuhiko Takada (10/25/1990) El Satanico vs El Dandy (Hair vs Hair – 12/14/1990) El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas (UWA World Heavyweight Title – 5/17/1991) Jushin Thunder Liger vs El Samurai (Super Juniors Final – 4/30/1992) Negro Casas vs El Dandy (CMLL Middleweight Title – 7/3/1992) Manami Toyota/Toshiyo Yamada vs Dynamite Kansai/Mayumi Ozaki (WWWA Tag Titles – 11/26/1992) Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada (2/28/1993) Shinobu Kandori vs Akira Hokuto (4/2/1993) Manami Toyota/Toshiyo Yamada vs Dynamite Kansai/Mayumi Ozaki (WWWA Tag Titles – 4/11/1993) Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (4/16/1993) Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (7/29/1993) Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams (8/31/1993) El Satanico vs Pirata Morgan (Hair vs Hair – 11/26/1993) Aja Kong vs Yumika Hotta (WWWA World Championship - 1/24/1994) Shinobu Kandori/Akira Hokuto vs Bull Nakano/Aja Kong (3/27/1994) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (Triple Crown Title – 6/3/1994) Shinobu Kanori vs Bull Nakano (Chain Match – 7/14/1994) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Akira Taue (Champions Carnival Final – 4/15/1995) Holy Demon Army vs Kenta Kobashi/Mitsuharu Misawa (Tag League Final – 6/9/1995) Shinjiro Otani vs El Samurai (UWA World Jr LHW Title – 1/21/1996) Volk Han vs Kiyoshi Tamura (9/25/1996) El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas vs El Dandy (Hair vs Hair vs Mask – 12/6/1996) Holy Demon Army vs Mitsuharu Misawa/Jun Akyama (Tag League Final – 12/6/1996) Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (Triple Crown Title – 1/20/1997) Volk Han vs Kiyoshi Tamura (Mega Battle Final – 1/22/1997) Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (I Quit Match – 3/23/1997) Koji Kanemoto vs El Samurai (Super Juniors Final – 6/5/1997) Negro Casas vs El Hijo del Santo (Hair vs Mask – 9/19/1997) Kiyoshi Tamura vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (6/27/1998) Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (Triple Crown Title – 10/31/1998) Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (Triple Crown Title – 6/11/1999) Kiyoshi Tamura vs Yoshihisa Yamamoto (6/24/1999) 2000s Aja Kong vs KAORU (AAAW Title – 2/13/2000) Atlantis vs Vilano III (Mask vs Mask – 3/17/2000) Akira Hokuto vs Meiko Satomura (4/29/2001) Bryan Danielson vs Low Ki (3/30/2002) Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (GHC Title – 3/1/2003) Eddie Guerrero vs John Bradshaw Layfield (WWE Title – 5/16/2004) Kenta Kobashi vs Samoa Joe (10/2/2005) Bryan Danielson vs Nigel McGuinness (ROH Title vs ROH Pure Title – 8/12/2006) John Cena vs Umaga (Last Man Standing – WWE Title – 1/28/2007) 2010s El Hijo Del Santo and Villano IV vs Angel Blanco and El Hijo Del Solitario (2/25/2012) Daniel Bryan vs John Cena (WWE World Title – 8/18/2013) Shinsuke Nakamura vs Kota Ibushi (IWGP IC Title – 1/4/2015) Black Terry vs Wotan (8/21/2016) Canis Lupus vs Trauma I (Mask vs Mask – 9/4/2016) Andrade Almas vs Johnny Gargano (NXT Title – 1/18/2018) Kenny Omega vs Kazuchika Okada (2/3 Falls – IWGP Title – 6/9/2018) Four and Three Forth Star Matches (****3/4) 1970s Johnny Saint vs Jim Breaks (British Lightweight Title – 3/5/1973 [air 5/5/1973]) Jim Breaks vs Vic Faulkner (UK Welterweight Title – 7/5/1977 [air: 7/16/1977]) 1980s Bob Backlund vs Ken Patera (Texas Death Match – WWF World Title – (5/18/1980) Devil Masami vs Jackie Sato (11/27/1980) Nick Bockwinkel vs Billy Robinson (12/11/1980) Terry Funk vs Jerry Lawler (No DQ – 3/23/1981) Steve Grey vs Jim Breaks (5/12/1981 [air: 5/16/1981]) Steve Grey vs Jon Cortez (7/27/1981) Jerry Lawler vs Dutch Mantell (Barbwire Match - Southern Heavyweight Title – 3/29/1982) Stan Hansen vs Terry Funk (4/14/1983) Ric Flair vs Jumbo Tsuruta (NWA Title – 6/8/1983) Nick Bockwinkel vs Wahoo McDaniel (AWA Title – 8/26/1983) Stan Hansen/Terry Gordy vs The Funks (8/31/1983) Greg Valentine vs Roddy Piper (Dog Collar Match – U.S. Title – 11/24/1983) Nick Bockwinkel vs Rick Martel (AWA Title – 9/20/1984) Terry Gordy vs Killer Khan (Texas Death Match – 11/22/1984) Yoshiaki Fujiwara vs Super Tiger (Real Death Match - 12/5/1984) Chigusa Nagayo vs Dump Matsumoto (Hair vs Hair – 8/28/1985) Jumbo Tsuruta vs Rick Martel (AWA Title – 9/29/1985) Ric Flair vs Ted DiBiase (NWA Title – 11/6/1985) Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (NWA Title – 2/14/1986) Stan Hansen vs Curt Hennig (AWA Title – 5/31/1986) Jerry Lawler vs Bill Dundee (Loser Leaves Town – 7/14/1986) Riki Choshu vs Killer Khan (Death Match – 7/31/1986) La Fiera vs Babyface (Hair vs Hair – 8/15/1986) Buddy Rose/Doug Sommers vs Midnight Rockers (8/30/1986) Bam Bam Bigelow vs Jerry Lawler (Texas Death Match – 9/7/1986) Terry Gordy vs Ted DiBiase (Cage Match – 10/17/1986) Invader I vs Al Perez (Street Fight – 10/26/1986) Buddy Rose/Doug Sommers vs Midnight Rockers (Cage Match – 1/17/1987) Randy Savage vs Ricky Steamboat (IC Title – 2/15/1987) Ric Flair vs Barry Windham (NWA Title 4/11/1987) Jerry Lawler vs Austin Idol (Cage Match – Southern Heavyweight Title – 4/27/1987) Barry Windham vs Dick Murdoch (Western States Heritage Title – 7/11/1987) Negro Casas vs El Hijo del Santo (Hair vs Mask – 7/18/1987) Midnight Express vs Fantastics (US Tag Team Titles – 4/26/1988) Shinobu Kandori vs Devil Masami (7/14/1988) El Dandy vs Pirata Morgan (Hair vs Hair – 9/23/1988) Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat (NWA Title – 5/7/1989) Sangre Chicana vs El Satanico (5/26/1989) El Dandy vs Emilio Charles (Hair vs Hair – 7/28/1989) Ric Flair vs Terry Funk (I Quit Match – 11/15/1989) 1990s Jushin Thunder Liger vs Naoki Sano (IWGP Jr. HW Title – 1/31/1990) Mitsuharu Misawa vs Jumbo Tsuruta (6/8/1990) Southern Boys vs Midnight Express (NWA US Tag Titles – 7/7/1990) Hiroshi Hase vs The Great Muta (9/14/1990) Aja Kong vs Bull Nakano (Cage Match – 11/14/1990) Pirata Morgan vs El Faraon (Hair vs Hair – 11/16/1990) Randy Savage vs Ultimate Warrior (Retirement Match – 3/24/1991) Vader vs Keiji Muto (G1 Match – 8/10/1991) Keiji Muto vs Masahiro Chono (G1 Final – 8/11/1991) Enforcers vs Dustin Rhodes and Ricky Steamboat (WCW Tag Titles – 11/19/1991) Sting’s Squadron vs The Dangerous Alliance (WarGames – 5/17/1992) Can-Am Express vs Kenta Kobashi/Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (All Asia Tag Title – 5/25/1992) Arn Anderson vs Barry Windham (2/3 falls – NWA Title – 6/6/1992) Ricky Steamboat vs Rick Rude (Iron Man Match – 6/20/1992) Hiroshi Hase vs The Great Muta (12/14/1992) Sting vs Big Van Vader (White Castle of Fear Strap Match – 2/21/1993) Holy Demon Army vs Kenta Kobashi/Mitsuharu Misawa (Real World Tag League Final – AJ Tag Title – 12/3/1993) Bret Hart vs Owen Hart (3/20/1994) Holy Demon Army vs Kenta Kobashi/Mitsuharu Misawa (Tag League Final – 5/21/1994) Super Vader vs Nobuhiko Takada (Pro Wrestling World HW Title – BotW Final – 8/18/1994) Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams (Triple Crown Title – 9/3/1994) Mocho Cota vs Negro Casas (Hair vs Hair – 9/23/1994) Los Gringos Locos vs El Hijos del Santo/Octagon (Double Hair vs Double Mask – AAA Tag Title – 11/6/1994) Shinya Hashimoto vs Hiroshi Hase (IWGP HW Title – 12/13/1994) Aja Kong vs Dynamite Kansai (WWWA Title – 8/30/1995) Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (11/17/1996) Cicloncito Ramirez vs Damiancito El Guerrero (CMLL Mini Estrella Title – 1/7/1997) Jushin Thunder Liger vs Shinjiro Otani (J Crown Title – 2/9/1997) LCO vs Karou Ito/Tomoko Watanabe (Cage Match – 9/21/1997) Volk Han vs Kiyoshi Tamura (9/26/1997) Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels (Hell in a Cell – WWF World Title – 10/5/1997) Kenta Kobashi vs Mitsuharu Misawa (Triple Crown Title – 10/21/1997) Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Misterio Jr (Title vs Mask – WCW Cruiserweight Title – 10/26/1997) El Hijo Del Santo vs Felino (WWA Welterweight Title – 3/8/1998) Shinobu Kandori vs Yumiko Hotta (LLPW Title vs WWWA Title – 3/21/1998) Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama (Triple Crown Title - 7/24/1998) El Hijo Del Santo vs Felino (10/18/1998) 2000s Cactus Jack vs HHH (Street Fight – WWE World title – 1/23/2000) Kenta Kobashi vs Yoshihiro Takayama (Triple Crown Title – 5/26/2000) Bryan Danielson vs Low Ki (7/21/2001) Brock Lesnar vs Undertaker (Hell in a Cell – WWE World Title – 10/20/2002) Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar (WWE Undisputed Title – 2/15/2004) Kenta Kobashi vs Yoshihiro Takayama (GHC Title – 4/25/2004) Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue (GHC Title – 9/10/2004) Samoa Joe vs CM Punk (ROH Title – 10/16/2004) Bryan Danielson vs James Gibson (ROH Title – 9/17/2005) Bryan Danielson vs Roderick Strong (ROH Title – 11/5/2005) Necro Butcher vs Super Dragon (No DQ – 2/9/2006) Bryan Danielson vs KENTA (ROH Title – 9/16/2006) Bryan Danielson vs Takeshi Morishima (ROH Title – 8/25/2007) 2010s LA Park vs el Mesias (AAA – 12/5/2010) CM Punk vs John Cena (WWE World Title – 7/17/2011) Eddie Kingston vs Mike Quackenbush (Chikara Grand Title– 11/13/2011) Walter vs Daisuke Sekimoto (wXw Unified Championship – 3/3/2012) John Cena vs Brock Lesnar (Extreme Rules Match – 4/29/2012) LA Park vs Dr. Wagner Jr. (TXT – 5/11/2013) Daniel Bryan vs HHH (4/6/2014) Shinsuke Nakamura vs Kazuchika Okada (G1 Final – 8/10/2014) Atlantis vs Ultimo Guerrero (Mask vs Mask – 9/19/2014) Roderick Strong vs Zack Sabre Jr. (PWG Title – 4/3/2015) Chris Hero vs Zack Sabre Jr. (6/26/2015) Shinsuke Nakamura vs Kazuchika Okada (8/15/2015) Sasha Banks vs Bayley (NXT Women’s Title – 8/22/2015) Atlantis vs La Sombra (Mask vs Mask – 9/18/2015) Meiko Satomura vs Io Shirai (World of Stardom Title – 12/23/2015) Shinsuke Nakamura vs Sami Zayn (4/1/2016) Black Terry vs el Barbaro Cavernario (6/11/2016) Trevor Lee vs Andrew Everett (Mid Atlantic HW Title – 6/18/2016) Kenny Omega vs Tetsuya Naito (G1 Climax Semi-Final – 8/13/2016) The Revival vs DIY (NXT Tag Titles - 11/19/2016) Io Shirai vs Mayu Iwatani (World of Stardom Title – 12/22/2016) Trevor Lee vs Chip Day (Mid Atlantic HW Title – 3/25/2017) Katsuyori Shibata vs Kazuchika Okada (IWGP HW Title – 4/9/2017) Kento Miyahara vs Shuji Ishikawa (Triple Crown Championship – 8/27/2017) Walter vs Zack Sabre Jr. (10/21/2017) Walter vs David Starr (10/28/2017) Brock Lesnar vs AJ Styles (WWE Universal Title – 11/19/2017) Walter vs Timothy Thatcher (Atlas Title – 1/28/2018) Walter vs Darby Allin (6/23/2018) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Kota Ibushi (G1 Climax Final – 8/12/2018) Walter vs Zack Sabre Jr. (Progress Title Match – 10/28/2018) Bryan Danielson vs Brock Lesnar (11/18/2018) * Moved from 5 to 4.75 ** Moved from 4.75 to 5 Added

This was absolutely top notch stuff. Brock sold his ass off for Dragon in a way that we haven't seen for some time. The layout was great. The dynamic between the two was meaningful and added so much to the match itself. This is just about on par with Styles/Brock from last year, even though it feels like Dragon/Brock left a little in the tank. Absolute top tier wrestling. ****1/2 (maybe 3/4 if I watch again).

The Ohno/Riddle thing was fun. Should set up a nice little feud to get Riddle off the ground the right way in NXT. The women's match was so disappointing. I think they did everything they could with the time they had and really set the tone for the evening well, but I was hoping for a lot more too. Gargano/Black didn't do much for me. The action was good, but it felt a bit directionless to me. Gargano feels so forced to me sometimes. He is such a talent, but I think he leans into the cheese a bit much, especially post the Almas match, which is why I am not as high on what he has done since then as some. It was still quite good on the whole, but it just didn't grab me. Ciampa/Dream on the other hand was my jam. Their cheesiness and theatrics felt less contrived. Things were just paced really nicely. I would agree that the only nitpicky thing for me was just how quickly Ciampa bounced back after taking every move in the Dreams arsenal. Overall though I think this was a really really good to great match. Haven't watched wargames yet, but I'll get to it eventually.

I need to watch this match again, but on first watch I was sort of blown away by it. I thought it was really well executed, nuanced, and compelling. I feel like the degree of difficulty on this story was really high. They have wrestled each other so many times in pretty high profile matches and they have told a different story each time. This one played off all those, especially their Progress match from NOLA. It wasn't as loaded with big chops and flash offense, but they really made everything count. I am going to try to revisit it soon.

Not sure why I hadn't watched this before but my god this is amazing. These two might be the most underrated of rivals. Between this and their 2004 match, they are just incredible together. I loved this from the kick to the dope to start things to the punch exchange to the one armed comeback. Peak Kobashi working against a big bully in Takayama... so much fun. ****3/4

I would say you should go out of your way to see the main. I thought it was a ton of fun. I get taken out of it by the excessive ref stuff (just can't help it), but this was still a match that offers a lot in the way of drama and violence.

Really really good stuff here. I said a few minutes ago that Mustache Mountain vs UE was second favorite match of the week and favorite match on NXT, but I might have actually enjoyed this more. This was really well done, especially given that its sort of an awkward title change. Like, this feels simultaneously believable and rushed all at once. Sane is clearly the best person to take the belt off Shayna at this point but at the same time I really didn't feel like it was time to end that reign. Regardless, they actually executed it really well. I loved the control sequence that Shayna had in the middle. It was brutal and Sane sold it really really well. Whats more, I thought Sane's fire on her comeback was incredible. She hit a new level that I hadn't seen from her (at least in NXT). It wasn't Shayna's best night. I thought she was clunky in selling in spots but that it didn't really take much away from the match itself. Sane not putting Shayna away with the big elbow was a nice touch. They prolong the match and get everyone on their toes, but just when you feel like they might go into some finisher spam they end it with a rollup... awesome! I am really high on this as one of the more careful and nuanced matches of the weekend.

I didn't think this was actively bad, but it is pretty easily my least favorite of their three. I have said it before, but I am not quite as high on Gargano as some people. That isn't saying much. I think he is really great, but he has some tendencies that don't resonate with me as much. This match was a lot of Gargano. A lot of pace. A little too heavy handed on the drama (beating you over the head with parts of it). Now... that isn't to say that I didn't like this. I love a last man standing match and this had some elements, some moments I really love. I loved the finish. I loved Ciampa burying Gargano. I loved some of the brutality and how stiff they get in places. It forwards the narrative that Gargano might be better that Ciampa physically, but Ciampa has already beaten him mentally. It did a fair job living up to the first two in terms of physically and serving as a final (I hope, at least for now) chapter to a feud that was probably unsustainable. However, the match caps at very good to me because it is a mixed bag. It had great moments/parts, but it also annoyed me in places. **** or ****1/4

Really really fun opener, probably my second favorite match of the weekend on the whole. I would say 85% of this was absolutely great and on its way to top 10 on the year territory for me. The action early on and the way they exchanged momentum was really good. I thought both Seven and Bate played Ricky Morton and Hot Tag Gibson pretty well in places. They were selling well. Bate it s a god damned freak of nature sometimes. He provides fun spots that always keep you on your tows. Strong particularly seemed like he was on and having a great match here. I did have issues with the finish. It went a little far for my taste with the kickouts of certain things. I also didn't like the throw in the towel thing. One of my personal pet peeves in wrestling is when they ignore something really obvious to do something overly dramatic. The fact that Seven doesn't just run in to break the hold like happens countless times in the match and instead considers throwing in the towel... ugh... I get it, but it annoys me. I know that is as much me as it is the match, but still. Even with that, I am higher than many on this ****1/4

This was a really good match that is elevated by the fact that it represents a compelling chapter in a very very compelling story. In context this match and so many of the parts within it gain so much meaning and relevance. Bryan brought one of his better, more understated performances in some time. He always looked good, but I particularly thought his timing and execution were really on here. Miz held up his end of things for the most part, as one would expect and brought a lot of personality to the match. In short, they did what you might expect. They play up those styles so much. Miz losing the momentum when he plays Bryan's game for too long and gaining it back by being the Miz was a really nice way to dictate the ebbs and flows of the match. I even liked the end. It made sense and (hopefully) it means we aren't seeing the closing chapter here. I thought some of Bryan's counters were real high points here. Him grabbing Miz by the neck I believe actually served as a tone setter for a while. Him coming out of the surfboard was a very effective momentum shifter. My only real complaint here is that it felt like it went long. There was a part in maybe the thrid quarter of the match where I felt the momentum had really waned and they were sort of meandering a bit. Still, this was an excellent match. ****

I think he is slow building to the day he can give something 10 stars. Like, I genuinely believe he is looking forward to it.

Of course men have been scrutinized and shamed for the their physical appearance, especially in the WWE/F, but to conflate that with the pressures women face and/or to think of these issues in wrestling as detached from the broader contexts is just silly. Poorly articulated examples from Charlotte aside, sure, the twitter outrage machine wouldn't react the same if this were a man, but that is such a peripheral point to this, a distraction at best.

Yeah I am in the same boat. Some stuff that I thought of as great has dropped a bit on rewatch. Some stuff that I thought would probably miss took a big jump up when I put it next to other great stuff. Some new matches are jumping the line. This has been good motivation to watch new stuff and to rewatch old favorites.

Hey! Glad to see someone else who breaks their list down by decade. Not sure why I prefer it, but I do! haha Interesting list. Glad to see you popping up over at GME and talking about some of these recently.

I am sure Dave has mentioned men before but that sort of misses the forest for the trees. Women and men have not faced the same sort of social and professional pressures regarding their physical appearance in general and over time. It isn't about a single instance or persons behavior in a vacuum. It is about how those things exist in a greater context. Yes there are instances of men being exploited and objectified based on their appearance and wrestling can provide many prime examples, but men have not been primarily and historically defined by their physical appearance. Men have not been put in positions where their sexuality has been leveraged against their professional success to nearly the same degree. Even today, as things are changing (I think, I hope) men and women are defined to different degrees by appearance. Just the other day I was watching First Things First (morning sports show). My wife poked fun at Nick Wright and I jokingly said, "that was harsh, you can't judge people based on appearance ya know!" and she said, "I know, but if a woman looked like that I bet she wouldn't the show". Its anecdotal and far from perfect, but it would be hard to argue that physical appearance is disproportionately important for women in the entertainment industry (probably most industries I bet). So in any case where someone is commenting on the attractiveness of a man or a woman, the resonance of the comment isn't the same; it isn't taken the same in the broader discourse. If nothing else, you can't blame a woman for being concerned in such cases that sexuality and physical appearance are still the things that will primarily define their success when they hear and see such things. And while in wrestling appearance is important, there is still very clearly a divide when you place a comment like that in the broader context. It wasn't all that long ago that women were - at best - an afterthought in American wrestling, particularly mainstream. It was a punchline. And I am not commenting on the women or their ability as much as the way it was treated, booked, presented, and discussed. I mean it was what, 2012 or 2013 when they were having "santa's helpers" matches or some bullshit. Even today, in wrestling "men" have been the standard. There is "wrestling" and "women's wrestling" (something I am still guilty of). Women in wrestling (wrestlers and fans a like I think) are still working constantly to be accepted as equal and not to be defined by their appearance. That is why its not the same if he comments on a man or a woman. Appearance is part of the equation for everyone in wrestling (men and women), but its never been the primary and defining characteristic for men and women are in the process of making sure that wont be the case for them again. As for the argument that its hypocritical to speak out against it while working for the WWE, I just don't buy it. Your employer doesn't define your entire identity. Your public and professional image of your employer doesn't automatically become your public image, especially when you have a case like this where the women involved are clearly striving for and working to make changes within the culture of the WWE (even if it is for their own benefit). I can't bring myself to judge any concessions they make or any company lines they tow because I have no idea the sorts of professional waters they are navigating. Every wrestler has to do that to ensure their success and financial security. Women more-so because they are actively part of a shifting culture. Things are changing for women and that is exciting. I expect it is really exciting for those involved they probably want to be a part of that. I expect they have to be particularly careful in picking their battles. Its all well and good to say "be consistent, stand up for what you believe in" when you aren't in their shoes, when you aren't a woman trying to succeed in professional wrestling. I'm not saying that isn't the case with anyone here - I honestly don't know, its more of a general statement. I know I can't really judge what women in those contexts do. I get fed up with the moral outrage machine on twitter as much as anyone. The medium just doesn't foster dialogue (which is why focusing on the instance itself is preferable). It fosters jumping on the type of discourse that most closely aligns with you and running with that. Its frustrating and plenty of people take it too far, but I don't blame anyone in the company or otherwise for trying to forward a certain climate in wrestling by shooting down certain types of talk about women from well known and influential (as baffling as that is to me) individual.

I get the aversion to hyperbolic Dave talk and I really don't intend this to be a part of that (though I recognize it might still come across that way. I just don't get why people care anymore. I don't listen to his show and I haven't read anything outside an obit he has written in at least 5 years. I rarely even swing by this thread, but I do run across his tweets sometimes and aside from his status being a tradition I really have trouble seeing why he is still all that relevant. My general impression is that he doesn't provide all that much insider knowledge anymore. It sort of feels like he could get just about as much "right" by guessing. His star ratings don't serve as a guide as much as they just function to create buzz for certain matches/events, making him more or less a - willing or not - advertisement for certain promotions and people. He is pretty good at riling people up but it isn't THAT provocative. Rather he is just sort of provocative in the way your old weird uncle might be on holidays. I mean he just posted an apology and he leads with basically "I am sorry. You are attractive". Dude is legit clueless. I completely get that he has a history in wrestling is somewhat important, but I just have so much trouble wrapping my head around why people care about what he says anymore (at least any more or less than the average person writing and talking about wrestling with a modicum of a following. And this isn't even about this statement. I found it distasteful and think that any remotely self aware person would be working to talk about wrestling in general and women's wrestling in 2018 with a little more care, but his crassness here pales in comparison to his irrelevance to me. I don't love him or hate him, I just don't care.

That would make sense to me. I had trouble finding anything substantive confirming the 10/18 date.

I don't necessarily disagree with the criticisms of the match, but I do think that the spotty selling later in this match actually works in this match because of how much they lean on Tanahashi's fighting spirit to tell their story. I also think the final of a tournament like this gives us another sort of environment all together. It is like when the super bowl comes around all the injury talk comes with, "but its the super bowl and there is nothing after this, so I expect him to play and play well". They both put it too much into this to not hit the move they needed to or to not hit the reverse when needed I have no idea if that was their thinking, but because it is so central to the dynamic, because Tanahashi was the defacto underdog vet proving he isn't done yet, and because this was the final the spotty selling felt logical to me for the most part in this match.