Microstatistics

The led by Misawa/Kawada argument doesn't hold up considering his GHC title run, where he was able to have different matches with a variety of opponents and almost every match was really great. His overall non-4 pillars output is the best of the four (in my opinion atleast). Also to add to Jvk's point, Kobashi is an underrated limb seller. The 7/24/1998 match had one of the most impressive leg selling performances ever but people were criticizing it in the Akiyama thread for some reason even though it was nearly as good as Kawada's 12/3/1993. Kobashi's was way more dramatic but that doesn't make it any less effective.

Honestly Kobashi is a much smarter worker than he is given credit for in my opinion. I won't deny he could go way overboard with some movez and fighting spirit after 1997, but he had a keen eye for structuring matches, holding them together as well as for escalation. He also knew exactly how much to give lesser opponents and how to make them look very credible. He wasn't some big dummy who went around throwing moves while his opponents did the thinking which is sometimes the perception.

Same.

Faraon (high vote), Miyato (high vote), Yamamoto and Hoshino off my list so far.

You know how opinions can never be wrong? Having Nash at 53 or 69 on a GWE list does not comply with that rule .

Some stuff about the style that annoys me at times (not about any workers in particular): Some of the falls in trios can be too choreographed like all 3 guys getting pinned at the same time and in the same manner. Some of the brawls can be too formulaic/repetitive (typical formula: technico gets ambushed and beaten up in first fall, gets surprise win in the second fall, wins back and forth battle in third fall) Sometimes finishing stretches can be too back and forth so transitions/selling suffer

Kevin Nash being anywhere near Mima Shimoda on a list like this, let alone tied, is just tragic. She was one of the last ones I unfortunately had to cut. One of the all time great tag workers.

I know you are tired of hearing the "it's a style thing" defense of Lucha but it is valid because watching pro wrestling with a universal set of standards is nearly impossible. The psychology is not worse, it's just different. If someone locks in a hold 3 minutes into a Lucha match, the likelihood of getting a submission is waaay greater than if someone in Japan or US did it because the "effectiveness" of the hold varies depending on the region. Why are piledrivers sometimes considered instant kill in Mexico but routinely no sold in Japan? Same principle. Two quick submissions in a Lucha 2/3 falls match might be considered bad pacing or poor psychology because its not what you see in Japan/US but its normal in Mexico because the stuff leading up to it is logical in its justification of it within the confines of the style. Each style needs to viewed on its on merit. I would never expect shootstyle or joshi workers to sell or pace their matches in the same way as Kobashi or Kawada. If you can't get into Lucha or something else on its own, that is completely fine but I think saying it is bad because it would be considered bad in a US or Japanese ring is not fair. I agree with this. I think in a NWA technical style match, someone grabbing an armbar and holding onto it for 2-3 minutes with minimal resistance from the opponent is FAR more cooperative than something like Dandy vs. Azteca where one guy cannot simply grab a hold without the opponent immediately trying to reverse/counter it.

Agreed. Those tags with her vs. Fujiwara/Ishikawa/Ikeda were very good. In that Ishikawa match she was literally going hold for hold with him.

I had him quite a bit lower than that

Surprised I was the only one who voted for Faraon. He had good stuff sprinkled throughout the 80s and some great singles matches in the early 90s, enough for bottom 10 placement for me.

Underestimated the love someone like Lawler was going to get. Didn't put him in my March Madness Top 10 predictor list because I thought a sizable portion of people would exclude him due to unfamiliarity but I guess not.

Did they seriously give that match 30 minutes?

No Stan Hansen World of Sport is my biggest blindspot so no Jim Breaks (seen like 1 match of his) No Virus, seen extremely little of him for some reason

Parv 8 of those didn't get #1 votes. I'm sure some people had Bret and Fujiwara at #1. Maybe Tanahashi too

No Misawa & Akiyama and Kobashi & Akiyama teams were huge omissions. I probably should have checked beforehand because I just assumed they were nominated like some of the other All Japan teams.

Yeah that's true I didn't mean it in a protege trying to prove himself kind of sense even though it has the same elements . Not sure how you would describe it exactly. But my main point is that shootstyle is a great medium for storytelling, just like the traditional style and I would encourage more people to explore it.

That doesn't mean Han wasn't far more skilled and dangerous than Tamura (and basically everyone in RINGS) during their first match. His debut is irrelevant. The dude was an established beast from his first match onwards and that is why the story of the trilogy is Tamura trying to prove he was on Han's level and Han trying to put him in his place.

In terms of an ideology, I would say Tamura vs. Han is the epitome of student vs. master. I put spoilers tags because I kind of reveal the finish of each match in the analysis. 9/25/1996 1/22/1997 9/26/1997

Disagree with this because a lot of the shootstyle matches I have seen have clear narratives. Maybe the biggest example is the Tamura/Han trilogy. The roles of each and the story of each match are very clearly defined. Not only that, there is an overarching story as well because we get to see how their characters and approaches change/evolve across the three matches and each match builds off the previous. It is basically the Flair vs. Steamboat of shootstyle except maybe on an even higher level. Also mat wizard vs. striker, david vs. goliath and young lion vs. veteran/ace type matches and their variations are pretty common in shootstyle.

It's a great match but a masterpiece and in contention for greatest WWE match ever? If you consider contention like maybe the 40th best match they have had? It has kind of this incessant, urgent intensity to it the entire way through that very few WWE bouts can match. There are no peaks or troughs. The closest comparison is Bret vs Austin. Everything is crisp, aggressive, purposeful. The character work is sublime. The screwy finish for once works perfectly in the context. It feels like a bloody, personal battle but is also elevated by the world title being at stake, and in the process elevates the title itself by the quality of the work and the desperation to win the match or hold on to the strap by any means necessary. It is the culmination of paranoid, violent, unhinged 2001 Austin who needs the title and will do whatever it takes to hold onto it. That sequence when he repeatedly hurls Angle into the ring post and then unleashes some beautiful punches as he is prone against the apron bleeding everywhere. And Kurt's revenge, with the fiery, angry comeback, suplexing him on the floor and unleashing a beautiful moonsault. JR calls the match perfectly. Love Austin's gradual realization as the match progresses that he won't be able to beat Kurt Angle on this night, his opponent is too driven, too good. Brilliant match, and possibly the only WWE match that would be a lock for my Top 25 of all time. Great Summary. I would rate it as the best WWE match of the 2000-2009 decade and Top 10 for WWE overall.

Shinya Hashimoto vs. Naoya Ogawa (NJPW 10/11/1999) Based on what I have read about it, this is a polarizing match to say the least with opinions ranging from garbage to all time classic. Regardless of the booking, as a match I thought it was pretty excellent. Ogawa was pretty good in this actually with great looking offense (though it did get repetitive) and I liked his frequent taunting. Hashimoto carries it though with his selling and ability to generate drama. There was also a cool spot where he tried to minimize the distance between himself and Ogawa to counteract the strikes. They could have taken it home about 2-3 minutes earlier though because the finishing stretch dragged a bit. **** 1/4

Might have to rewatch this because I don't remember any moment selling wise that stood out from Hansen in this. Offensively he was great but that was about it. But then again I don't think Hansen is a great seller in general like many others do, particularly in the 1980s. There was a spot at the end where he pops up literally 2 seconds after taking a Tenryu powerbomb to hit the lariat. Anyways this is a really good match with a fantastic Tenryu performance. His selling and amazing timing of hope spots made for great drama in the second half.

I would give him 3/3 for offense. I guess you haven't seen much 2000's and modern Akiyama but he developed into one of the greatest on the offensive workers of all time. Great range and depth of offense, executed with tremendous focus. He might have the most focused offense I have ever seen, especially when working over a body part.

This is pretty much a squash but is probably one of the 3-5 greatest squashes ever. Cena's selling was pretty fantastic here and Lesnar's offense and character work were pitch perfect. A 15 minute+ match that felt like 3 minutes. **** 1/4