TonyPulis'Cap

Rewatched this for the first time in years last week and this is a fantastic match. All the counters are amazingly smooth, but without it coming off as choreographed, and while there is plenty of action, it never feels like overkill or that there are any unbelievable kick outs. If I remember at the time Low Ki had been part of Triple X and a heel but was a surprise one off challenger that they sadly didn't revisit again, as a series with these two would've been great. Perhaps the Russoference at the end knocks it down a touch - a recurring problem in a number of AJ's matches at this point, but you could already see Styles maturing from the indyriffic spotty guy he was when TNA started and just over a year later at this point he is already much more well rounded.

Just got around to seeing the debut of Sanity and thought they looked pretty cool in terms of their overall look. Take your point in a way, but putting a gimmick on people who would otherwise be jobbers (and might still be when the thing has run it's course) is a really good way of utilising your resources. For the guys who don't have that pre-NXT indy buzz, trying to get round the fact they don't have any reputation to lean on means that those are the best people to assign a gimmick like this to. They need it far more. Kane maybe universally reviled these days, but back in 1997/98, the WWF essentially made a main eventer that got fairly over by taking a guy that had been, if not a jobber, a lower card guy with no real reputation at the highest level and strapping a character to him. Intrigued to see where they go with them as a group.

Pretty fun brawl, although it always amuses me when Joey get's hot at a cheap finish, as in with the powder, given the general lack of rules in ECW matches. As highlighted, the newspaper bin did make me laugh and the idea of Dreamer getting his broken fingers crushed in it made me wince so got the desired reaction. While the action in ring may not be all that great, the way all the different characters and story lines interact with each other is what draws you in.

Watching this back, and indeed watching other Douglas interviews, his delivery is always pretty good, and he has a great sounding voice for promos...but so often the subject material is terrible with far too much rambling and far too much, *wink, wink, nudge, nudge, we're shooting don't you know* going on.

For anyone that has signed up to Rev Pro's on demand service, there are about 15 shows on it from the period 2009 - 2012 before the company as it is now split off from IPW:UK. Going through these shows there are some decent to very good cards and lots of hidden gems. It's a period when a lot of the current guys that have reinvigorated the UK scene over the last few years were coming up, crossed over with the generation before them that didn't quite get the recognition that looking back they probably deserved. Hoping to post a few more matches that fit that hidden gem criteria, starting with this one. This really came as a surprise to me. The Lion Kid is not a guy that historically I have held in particularly high regard, seeing him as very spotty and also often very sloppy, Too many he'd look like your ultimate scrawny indy guy, however on a number of these IPW:UK cards I've seen he performs as a really good underdog, eliciting a lot of sympathy in his performances. Sha Samuels is a guy still on the BritWres scene, but one that seems to get a lot of criticism. Personally I've always quite liked him, but appreciate that to many, there's a bit too much 'shtick'. In storyline, he had recently turned heel at this stage and had just won the British Title from Dave Mastiff - this is his first defence. This match had come from him being upset in a tag match the event before and being pinned by the Lion Kid. The start of the match is perfect, and Lion Kid is just 'on', as he flies out with a tope onto Samuels before the bell starts and absolutely wipes him out. It's one of the best topes I've seen in terms of coming out of nowhere and the impact. For the opening stages he constantly keeps Samuels off his game by hitting and moving with moves like a headscissors on the outside, As an opening its reminiscent of a match that Rey Mysterio has with Brock Lesnar on a Halloween Smackdown in 2002 that for a 3 or 4 minute match is also worth seeking out. It all leads to a great nearfall where Lion Kid hits a 450, which is is the move that he used to pin him at the event previously. The match then settles down to Samuels on top, and if there is a criticism it's that his offence is not quite as aggressive as you would like, but the match is helped along by the Lion Kid timing his hope spots pretty well. It's a match that time wise doesn't outstay it's welcome and keeps things tight. Right before the finish, Samuels absolutely kills Lion Kid with a brainbuster type move from the top where I was almost afraid to watch, which probably shouldn't have been kicked out of but the finish does come almost immediately after. If you were ranking things with stars, I would say in the *** 1/2 range for me, but in terms of the enjoyment factor, I was very much swept along with the story.

Saving that for Mania...

Somewhat randomly, and bizarrely, Newcastle United used to come out for the second half to Kurt Angle's WWE theme. I guess the ability to shout "you suck" at some of the players they've had in recent times actually somewhat appropriate.

Focusing more on the 'Gymnastics in pro wrestling' part of the thread rather than the 'Ricochet-Ospreay/Vader drama' part of it, although of course the two are linked, the whole debate popped into my head randomly when the wife was watching Strictly Come Dancing last week (for those in the US/rest of the world, that's the UK's version of Dancing with the Stars). Bear with me here, but it was the first week of performing, so most of the 'celebrities' aren't at much of a standard and you find that they all use something in their first dance that is linked to whatever they are famous for. So this year, there is a young gymnast who competed at the Olympics a month or so ago. Playing to her strengths, and I guess what she enjoys, she threw in this perfect cartwheel and flip into the routine. Looked great, flawless and made the crowd go "oooooh!" But when it came to the scoring, the head judge, who is this old school guy called Len, was critical and said as a purist he wasn't really a fan of when dance routines have flips and gymnastics in them, as they, and I'm paraphrasing here, distract from the quality of the routine, and while they can be used occasionally, it's no good if the steps in between aren't there to connect the big lifts and 'wow moments'. Now, I'm not an expert when it comes to ball room dancing, latin, waltzes, sambas etc, but his critique did make me think of the debate about flips in wrestling, and what people term spot monkeys who don't have the basics and transitions to connect the dots in between the high spots and reinforced how similar a lot of the debates that go on within different performance based sports/activities.

Very much looking forward to the start of the Dusty Rhodes Tag Team Classic for this year, and intrigued to see where they go with it. I haven't read any spoilers (and don't wish to know anyway!) but there will be a couple of teams who a victory for sets things up for future stories down the line. Last years tournament was where Gargano and Ciampa first came to prominence in NXT and there is clearly unfinished business with the Revival. A loss in the tournament could also be the catalyst for the subtle hints that have been there of a Ciampa heel turn. The Revival themselves should go far in the tournament, but as the champions, you think that whoever they lose to will be set up for a tag team title shot, as typically champions don't tend to win tournaments. I think it was the Vaudevillians who were the champions at this point last year and from memory went out fairly early. The Authors of Pain will be a massive (pun intended) favourite as you wonder who will actually be able to beat them, although you could see them coming up against the Revival who sneak out a crafty win. Then there's the fact that last year was won by the Super NXT team of Balor and Joe, so one of the non permanent teams could do well, especially as Roode and Dillinger look like they could be an amazing team and the finals will be in Toronto, and then there's Ibushi and Itami as well. All in all, when you look at likely match quality and the fact there are so many different routes they could go, this should be a fantastic tournament. It will also be interesting to see if all the matches are on TV. Last year they showed some of them in clip form from house shows in an event centre and I thought that worked really well, like a sports highlight/round up show.

This match is an interesting taster for what could have been, had we not been so close to Bret's departure. Bret seems like one of the first people who was able to harness Shamrock's skills and work with his submissions, and as is discussed above, means that Bret is forced out of his comfort zone somewhat. For his first year or so there was a slight awkwardness in Shamrock matches, but that made them feel more unique and led to them standing out during the 97/98 period when a lot of guys were very punch/kick with what they did. With a good 20 minutes or so on a PPV, this could have been an excellent match.

Not a fan of the Eddyjiri-Team Angle match? I love that match, I think that it's woefully underrated, even if that era was oversaturated with ladder matches. Some brutal spots, a masterful Guerrero performance, and a fantastic finish. I actually have it as GREAT. The Eddyjiri-Team Angle TV matches all easily qualify for this thread. Ah, you're right - completely forgot about that match! It's a pretty good one, although I'm not quite as high on it as you. From memory think there are some rough spots from Benjaim and Haas who look a bit out of their element with the ladders...although in an art imitating life way, that kind of works well with the story of the match where two amateur wrestlers are out of their comfort zone. I enjoy the straight tag matches on Smackdown the two teams had a lot, particularly the one where Team Angle (actually think they are going by the TWGTT name by that point) win the belts back and then Eddie destroys Tajiri in a sick beat down on the low rider. Good shouts here though!

That Tajiri/Corino match is absolutely brutal (in a good way) where the heel Corino is basically turned face because of the sympathy from a crowd seemingly genuinely fearful of his long term health. A great shout for this topic, as I would struggle to call it a 'great match' per se (I do think it's very good mind) but a real visceral spectacle. Watching it, Tajiri really should have been pushed into the main event in ECW in 2000. Him dishing out punishment versus an unstoppable monster Rhino on top would've been a great rivalry if the company had lasted.

This is an excellent topic. There are so many matches that I think are really good and super enjoyable without hitting on, or ever really aspiring to hit on, ‘greatness’. Like many others have said, this is a topic where you could sit and list hundreds of matches, but immediate thoughts would be some WWE Women’s matches pre the whole Divas Revolution. In particular, Trish vs Lita for the title which main evented RAW and where Lita almost breaks her neck on a dive, the Trish/Mickie mania match with it’s long backstory, and then there’s an AJ Lee/Kaitlyn match from a random 2013 PPV that’s really hard hitting and intense given it’s only sub 10 mins. Doug Williams is a real favourite of mine, and his matches really capture the good but not always great vibe as I think they can sometimes be a little cold when looking at what you need to get next level. But I have so many of his matches ranked around *** ½ stars and he has some real hidden gems out there. One’s to seek out are a 1PW match with Nigel McGuinness, ROH Pure Title defences against Alex Shelley and Austin Aries in 2004, TNA matches with AJ Styles and Brian Kendrick and then right back to his FWA days in the early 2000s, particularly a title match he has with Daniel Bryan, who is wrestling under a mask which makes it a bit of a collectors item. Would very much agree with whoever highlighted the WCW midcard of 1998 including various combinations of Benoit, Saturn, Raven and DDP. Perry Saturn in particular is a real underrated MVP of WCW on PPV in 98, and for this topic would definitely highlight him versus Raven at Fall Brawl 98. Some other random ones in no particular order or context: Goldberg vs. Scott Steiner (09/17/2000) – even with Russoference this is a great power match where you feel genuine animosity between the two Alex Shelley vs. Chris Sabin (01/11/2009) – finals of a tournament for the vacant X Division Title and where they really play well on the tag team partners/best friends that know each others moves and actions London and Kendrick vs. The Pitbulls (07/23/2006) – popped into my mind after listening to the PTB Podcast recently, but a great tag team match where the Pitbulls work as a really old school veteran team against two high flyers. It’s sort of a little bit of a poor man’s version of the Revival match from the last NXT Takeover Brock Lesnar vs. Big Show (05/18/2003) – the lone bright spot on a horrific PPV, these guys always had great chemistry and this stretcher match has some really innovative spots and is great fun Young Bucks vs. Teddy Hart & Jack Evans (03/20/2010) – this is from JAPW and while very much a spot fest at times – look who’s in the match of course – Hart and Evans charisma makes this is a good watch, and comes at a time when the Bucks were more of a Hardy Boyz tribute act (in a good way) than the somewhat more obnoxious version we have now

I might be the only one, but just saw this vignette yesterday and actually quite enjoyed it. I thought it made Kama come across as a pretty tough guy you wouldn't want to mess with, and given it was on the same show as Jeff Jarrett 'singing' performance, pretty contemporary and sports like feel for a 1995 WWF character package. Could've done without the Easy Rider bits on the motorbike, but it got me somewhat interested to see Kama 'The Supreme Fighting Machine' in the ring...

I definitely see where you are coming from with the Kane interference, but there is something to be said for the way that after being destroyed for 30+ minutes, Michaels, who is basically dead at that point, just drapes an arm over to be proclaimed the winner of a match where he has been annihilated for most of it, in terms of getting him over as a total weasel who at that point was always able to sneak out of a win by hook or by crook.

Cant speak for everyone, obviously, but the Vintage Vaults are an absolute highlight of my podcasting week and how I discovered this board actually. Been listening since I think the 1996 ppv's, and you guys going through each of the events in detail is really what reignited my wrestling fandom a couple of years back. Nothing too substantial to add but just thought I'd offer some love! Excited to listen to latest offering. Not only is it the review of the legendary 'worst PPV of all time contender' December to Dismember, but some crossover with This Week in Wrestling with Timothy and also a new Parv podcast - so what's not to like?

This match is pure spectacle. I remember the first time seeing the match and being enthralled by the look of it, even if as pointed out, the on camera shot of the guy at the control panel making the flames go up and down does spoil a little of the magic. Obviously the fire limits what you can do, and in that sense resembles a number of barb wire matches where the participants largely tip toe around the edges and stick to fairly basic action. Even without the flames, Kane and Undertaker is not a classic but in a way the gimmick helps strangely - limiting what would be limited action. The Taker spot of flying over the ropes is fantastic and it's nice to see Vader come out after being put on the shelf by Kane and set up that feud to continue. The ending is about as good as you can get in a match like this, and does offer a legitimate payoff in that Kane's arm is set on fire. Even with all the padding, and the safety precautions it's still pretty amazing to see, given fire isn't something you can always be sure you can control. I'd be intrigued to watch some of the other inferno matches they ended up doing to see how they compare. It's a match that is hard to rate, but as a spectacle I was still pretty enthralled watching it 18 years later.

I think it's from the Terry Funk's Wrestlefest show.? Yep, it's on Terry Funk's Wrestlefest 1997. I had this on VHS, as it was released by a company I think called Deltavision (?) in the UK. Just before the ECW rites were officially purchased by WWE they put out lots of the non PPV ECW shows which you could get in places like HMV. The Funk/Hart match is really good from my hazy memory. With Bret being in the middle of his heel anti US run, he works a really old school match, which is a lot different from a much of what Funk was doing in ECW at time. There were some other pretty interesting matches on the show as well including a Sabu/Foley match, but with Mick in his Mankind persona. The Dory Funk/RVD match is something of a styles clash if I recall...

Perhaps not the best match to be saying this after, but Foley really is an underrated MVP for the WWF between 97 and 98, able to move up and down the card, and be credible whether he is working with someone at a main event level or lower down the pecking order. Transitioning between his three personas and in and out of tag teams he is so consistent, pretty much providing at least a *** match in every PPV in 1998. As seen with this Austin feud, he's a perfect first rivalry for a new champion, someone to be seen as a threat, but that never really suffers from taking losses. In fact, I'm pretty sure he loses every PPV match he is in during this year but gets increasingly more over.

No. Sorry. Since I was called a "weirdo" and "mysoginic" when I made that remark, I have to reiterate. No. It's not there at all when I'm taking about it. It says a lot about how standards have dropped off a cliff concerning "promo ability", although we're not talking about that here, really, when Stephy is considered any good. The issue is that we're not talking about promos anymore, we're talking about terrible sitcom sub-porn acting. Look at Dario Cueto in Lucha Underground. He's playing straight telenovela evil (and is great at it), and he looks like Leo DiCaprio compared to anyone on WWE TV. Think you're being a little harsh on Steph. Wrestling has never been known for it's Laurence Olivieresque performing, but genuinely think she is one of the better ones out there right now. Agreed that Dario Cueto is fantastic in his role, you can definitely tell the difference when you put a trained actor in there compared to wrestlers, or wrestling personalities trying their best to act.

Couldn't agree more. Stephanie has developed into a great TV performer - and yes, always better than Shane - even if as most other agree, she can be a bit too domineering in some segments. Back in the early part of her run she was quite often the butt of jokes, but that kind of changed around the time she became much more of a visible presence corporately. She seems to pick up some pretty impressive media coverage in the business world so maybe she's reluctant to be embarrassed more often in case it hurts that image? Just a thought.

This is a fantastic promo from Cactus, with a lot of truth to what he is saying, and you can feel some empathy with him. However, as others have pointed out, there is something whiny about it, which unfortunately is a characteristic that I think some associate with Foley both on and off screen. Knowing what is to come with the transformation into Dude Love as the corporate puppet, this is a really good bridge, and even today, Foley is the master of making sure angles have logical steps and the characters have logical motivations for their actions. One thing that is touched on by others though, is the fact that the crowd seems pretty disinterested and restless during the segment. Now while that actually works in a way with Foley’s whole point, it’s worryingly a trend that gets more prevalent as we really get into the heart of the Attitude Era, that fans have increasingly short attention spans and are starting to zone out for anything that’s not catchphrases or swearing.

This hits things square on the head - love that the weeks before WM 14 and then in the weeks since, that the Vince/Austin dynamic evolves slowly and that Vince isn't a cartoon villain immediately off the bat. This is a guy, who has had his fingers burned - be it storyline/real life - with a champion not wanting 'to do business', so understandably tetchy about the fact he wants his champion to be someone he can work with. You really feel that he is trying to act in the best interests of his company rather than just hating Austin for some undefined reason, like the Cena/Bischoff reprise of the angle for just one example.

I'm always a sucker for a cage match where there is a post match group beat down in the cage afterwards and this one is pretty vicious with Cactus taking some pretty nasty chair shots and Funk handcuffed to the cage around his neck. DX look like a serious heel threat here and it's a great reboot in the immediate aftermath of WM 14. Already it seems like Shawn has been consigned to history. All in all this is a pretty great RAW and a template of what was to come over the next several months as the WWF forges ahead and starts winning the Monday Night War. The Vince/Austin stuff dominates several segments but it's all excellent with Vince playing a much subtler, nuanced version of the character he would become.

Chief, that is some absolutely top work on rebooking a 2008 version of the tournament. Some of those comparisons work so well. The only one that I would really change is Duggan in the role of Dr Death. While it works on a mid South level, I feel it needs to be someone that they brought in specifically for the tournament, hoping that he would get over and that he could then be used as a challenger. I'm not sure if I have the 2008 recall to suggest who that could've been, but maybe Jack Swagger? He had the amateur credentials etc. but then maybe falls as he's going for a takedown to someone like a Sheamus just punching him in the face.