Frankensteiner

I've gone over this plenty of times. Bret wins this easily for me. I am trying to figure out the Flair matches from his prime that I still like the last time I saw them. I'm thinking of the Von Erich matches but that's about it. FWIW, I would rank all the guys on Loss' list above ahead of Flair also.

Paging Dylan, what did you and the selection committee think of the Martel/Larry Z match from Winnipeg?

The first time it aired in US was when the WWE released it through their COD channel a couple of years back.

I think that is a really great summary and actually describes why I feel the complete opposite. I prefer the subtle much more than the theatrical and dopey.

I went back just to check their workload and wow it's not even close. From '85 to '94 (10 years) Bret averaged 202 matches per year. From '03 to '11 (9 years) Rey averaged 106. So Bret basically doubles Rey in workload. Bret's first "light" year in 1995 when he was given some time off, he still worked 145 matches and that was basically equal to the highest Rey match total for a single year is (148 in 2004). Rey never worked more than 140 matches in any other year with the company. After looking at this, I don't think Bret gets enough credit for remaining a high level worker into his late 30's and early 40's. How many other wrestlers worked that kind of murderous schedule and were still high level workers? I can think of Flair, but after that?

I just wanted to add that I do kinda understand where you're coming from with your Bret criticisms. What you say about Bret sounds similar to how I feel about Flair. I used to be a big fan but I just can't watch him anymore. Most every Flair match is ultimately about Flair's shtick and very much Flair-centric. For the most part, Bret's matches are Bret's matches. Much like Flair, he definitely had a set way of working. I think there's enough variations in Bret's template and he switches up enough parts to the point where I don't find the formula repetitive. In fact it's impressive to me how he can work off of his formula to tell different narratives. I wouldn't mind Flair's repetitiveness so much if his matches were smarter and not as hokey.

I don't really think you can compare their schedules to what Bret worked. Mysterio takes months off regularly, Finlay only worked that schedule for 2-3 years at most, and Regal has had plenty of periods of inactivity. Bret was on that schedule for 8 years before entering his prime years as a worker. Pretty big difference in my view.

If that's how you want to look at it that's fine (although I disagree). But I would also completely disagree that Bret is using the same storytelling or psychology working against Owen and Diesel. I think if you have a bad wheel and it's hindering your mobility so that you're only working on one leg then you must be the underdog even if you were the favourite before the fight. I think Bret was meant to be perceived this way when he entered the Rumble in '94 and again when he walked out for the Wrestlemania main event. He may not have been the underdog heading into that Wrestlemania but it wouldn't be much of a story if things didn't change from the beginning to the end. I don't think Bret worked that differently against Owen and Diesel. He got beat up, sold a lot and worked towards setting up the sharpshooter. I broke down last night and watched three Bret matches against Bigelow and honestly Bigelow could have been anyone. I'm not going to go through and catalogue every time Bret sold his leg because that would require me to watch a whole lot of Bret, which I don't want to do. I think his knee was a theme throughout his career and he liked selling leg injuries. If I was to be cynical, I'd suggest it was because he liked being the focus of every match, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that it was because he thought it was important and logical to sell the effects of every move or hold that was applied in the ring and to do so consistently and thoroughly. Forgetting my poor choice of words in "underdog" and "all the time", would you deny that Bret went into selling mode in just about all of his matches? You don't think he spent a large part of a match hobbling around and sucking wind? On the first point, I guess I can appreciate the differences between Bret working on top/even against Owen only to shift to underdog mode after suffering an injury versus coming into the match outgunned against a monster like Diesel. That doesn't seem all that similar to me in terms of storytelling. Plus he had a number of other matches against Owen that year where the knee injury wasn't a part of the match. As far as his selling, I don't consider it to be excessive or repetitive. If you compare him to other babyfaces like Steamboat, Tito, or Martel, I don't think the time he spent selling was all that different. Obviously he had a different style of selling than someone like Steamboat, but I also liked Bret's more realistic approach to selling than going the dramatic/theatrical route.

All that is questionable. I think Volk was awesome but he also has a some nondescript matches. I don't really see how you can compare the two given the different styles. Probably depends on your view of WWF vs. Shoot-style. I wasn't really trying to compare the two as workers, just in terms of percentage of hits and misses. The latter is something that I may agree with but I would go lower than his 40th best match. I think the case for Bret is in the strength of his matches 11-30, and also that his top 10 is as good as or better than any other US workers.

If that's how you want to look at it that's fine (although I disagree). But I would also completely disagree that Bret is using the same storytelling or psychology working against Owen and Diesel. So by "all-the time" we're up to what, 5 matches? If you have to use him faking a knee injury in a post-match angle then you're really stretching. Bret working a knee injury against Austin is not at all similar to Bret selling a knee injury for sympathy against Owen.

I probably shouldn't take the bait but that is a curious statement at best. Just looking at his 1994, I can think of only two instances when he worked as an underdog (vs. Yokozuna, Diesel). The Quebecers tag through to Owen re-injuring his leg in the Wrestlemania opener and Bret coming out on one leg to challenge Yokozuna for the title was all classic Bret. He had so many leg injuries he should have retired mid career. That and his tweener work were his go to stories. Working an injury is not the same as working as an under-dog. The Owen and Diesel matches in 1994 are worked completely differently. But what are the other leg injury matches he worked? Because you only named 3 out of a 6 year span.

I probably shouldn't take the bait but that is a curious statement at best. Just looking at his 1994, I can think of only two instances when he worked as an underdog (vs. Yokozuna, Diesel).

I have too many blind spots for a comprehensive GOAT list but I have not seen any US guys who I would say are better than Bret. One of the things I love about him is just how he carries himself; there’s never a disconnect between his character and the way he approaches a match in-ring. I also love his serious approach as I can’t think of too many instances of bullshit comedy or stooging spots (though I’m sure there’s probably some examples) that I generally dislike with other guys. Everything he does looks real, not in a shoot-style sort of way, but in the context of US pro-wrestling. Of course his storytelling and the way he builds a match is probably what sets him apart for me. The idea that he doesn’t have a list of week-to-week TV matches doesn’t bother me at all. That’s just not how the WWF operated. Does Volk Han get downgraded because he wasn’t a great TV worker? Regardless, I think there’s enough matches from CHV, TV, and handhelds to show Bret wasn’t only a PPV worker. I suspect that if we took a look at a list of all the taped Steamboat or Arn matches in the early 90’s, the percentage of keepers wouldn’t be that different from a list of keepers from all of Bret’s taped matches during his prime. Plus, even if someone wants to make a case that X guys have more good matches because of working weekly TV, I don’t think there’s anyone who can rival Bret in the volume of great matches.

Personally, I have more fun watching matches with wrestlers I really like. Meaning I'd rather watch a good match between wrestlers I like than a great match between two guys I don't really care for. I'd go even further and say I'll have more fun watching an average match with guys I like because I'll have more interest in seeing how they work in certain situations.

I recall liking that Taylor match if it's the one from a July TV episode. Another idea would be to compare how he wrestled babyface Jake Roberts in '85 and then '89.

Where would we classify Shawn if not as a technical wrestler? Granted, the WWF always had a pretty loose definition of technical wrestling, but I can't really see him slotted into any other categories. As an aside, what exactly are the separate wrestler groups? I can think of the following: Technician Brawler High Flyer (included under technician?) Power Wrestler (included under brawler?) Monster

The one thing I would add is might be better to start off with something other than the most pimped matches when getting into a new style. Those Han/Tamura matches are amazing but I wasn't nearly as impressed with them at first. I couldn't fully appreciate the style. My thinking was that if this is the best that shoot-style has to offer, why bother? But there wasn't any fault with the matches, just my expectations.

I think it would be interesting to see which matches have been dropped from your original list.

I want to second (or is it third?) the WAR Cage 6-man recommendation. I remember liking another tag from this feud but not sure if it's the 6-man from 3/21 with Goto and Kitao teaming together or if it's the match from 6/6 mentioned above. I'll try to re-watch both.

I could swear I saw a post by Yohe on wrestling classics saying the move was around back in the 1930's.

Hey! I'm in the same boat. I find southern tag wrestling pretty dull.

There was a brief moment during that tag match where I think you could hear Lawler struggling to breathe on commentary. That was probably one of the worst things I've ever seen.