Frankensteiner

I wouldn’t say Hogan is a terrible wrestler but I don’t find him very interesting either. There’s nothing that stands out about him as a worker. I don’t think he was a good brawler, his selling was alright but not terribly compelling, and he’s not particularly athletic. He’s been in some matches I liked but it’s hard to imagine anyone in his position and given those opportunities not having some decent matches under their belt.

Tito Santana vs. Greg Valentine, 10/22/84 MSG I just wanted to recommend this match to anyone who's a fan of the Tito/Greg series. Haven't read much about it but I consider it an essential part of their feud. In some ways this is the Steamboat/Savage from Toronto equivalent in that Tito is out for revenge after Valentine injured his knee. From the pre-match promo it's pretty clear Tito doesn't care about winning the belt on this night. The match itself is only around 6 minutes and is kind of one-sided but Tito dishes out one serious ass-kicking.

I don't think there is one and I looked. I can send you match lists for the first two volumes (still working on the 3rd) when I get home tonight.

On the Bret/Shawn DVD, Bret said the plan for his comeback was to still be a face but purposely take shots at Shawn. He mentioned that all the post-match stuff after the Iron Man (no handshake, leaving the locker room pissed, etc.) was planned ahead to work everyone into thinking the two hated each other. So it's possible the buildup to WrestleMania was done with that purpose in mind as well. Does Bret really dislike Mexican wrestling? He's called Mysterio one of the greatest ever.

No. I think they were saving Savage/Beefcake for a run during the summer, after Savage was done with Hogan.

La Fiera vs. Babe Face (Hair v Hair), 1986 Terrific match. I thought Fiera looked great in this, with his sympathetic selling and awesome comebacks. Maybe not quite a Chicana level performance, but pretty damn close. Babe Face brought it as well but I thought Fiera was the star here. The couple of trios that built up this match were really good, too. Generally speaking, it's hard to imagine any mask/hair matches in the 80s not being at least good, with the general presentation, violence, and copious bloodshed making for a great atmosphere. Watching this and the newly discovered Chain match against Estrada, Fiera is a guy who is super underrated. I would think this match is a pretty strong Top 10 contender for an 80s Lucha set.

I agree with jdw. There's way way way too much credit and overanalysis given to Flair for what are simply crowd pleasing spots.

Tito was one of the better workers in the company from '88 to '90 and didn't appear as though he had lost anything in his El Matador run. I think the key period of interest is when Bret started working more singles matches in the late 80s and early 90s as there are a lot of easy comparison points such as both of them having a ton of matches against Hennig. Yes, Tito was older and more experienced, but they were in a similar position company wise as midcard faces. I didn't really mean in terms of ability but position on card. Tito was pushed down and Bret pushed up. But I guess you're probably right, in that ultimately both were midcard guys during much of that overlap period.

I think, as with all comparsions, you have to look at peak vs. peak. So for Tito it's '82-'87 and for Bret it's '92-'97. We can look at the area in-between for common opponents but Bret was on his way up and Tito on his way down so there's only so much you can gain.

Why would the comparison stop in '94?

That second MSG match from 2/20/84 I really liked. I agree it started slow with them working hammerlocks and what not. But I appreciated Muraco going on his run. Tito should have had a longer come back before they went to the finish with Muraco's head in the ropes. It's easy to assume the matches could have been better.

I disagree with this part. They brawled to the back, slammed each other into guard rails, flung each other into ring steps, Bret slammed Owen on the concrete floor, Owen used his straps to choke Bret, etc. They worked the type of No Holds Barred match that was possible in 1995 WWF.

Actually, the Toronto No DQ match is probably better than MSG. I think OJ watched both as well, and liked the Toronto one better.

I think the Hayes TV match wasn't from Vegas but Atlantic City, IIRC. That one was pretty good, but it was kind of a set up match. Will have to track down the other St. Paul match, and of course the Bravo matches because those sound good.

What are the Martel/Bravo and Martel/Hayes matches worth watching? I've seen the Martel/Hayes from St. Paul with Crusher at ringside but I didn't like it very much.

How about these guys: Tracy Smothers Rick Martel Sting Tito Santana

Speaking of pedophile gimmicks, wait until the Juicer debuts. This period from right around the Bash to probably January/February of '91 is the dark ages of WCW. I don't think I recall the company being this bad at any other point (although I stopped watching in early 2000 so it's possible that was worse). The upshot is '91-'94 WCW is just awesome.

Brian Pillman 1. Jushin Liger 2. Barry Windham 3. Lex Luger 4. Steve Austin 5. Ricky Steamboat I like the Liger matches an example where workrate Pillman was hitting on all cylinders. Pillman/Windham is excellent, and one of Pillman’s few chances to work a traditional feud with someone else. The Luger matches were fun too and had really good crowd heat. With Austin, they had good matches pre- and post- Blonds run. Steamboat was more of a tag feud but they did work some excellent singles. Although I wish I could think of some other good heel opponents since I really did like Pillman more as a face. I guess an honorable mention to Flair. Bret Hart 1. Owen Hart 2. Steve Austin 3. Bob Backlund 4. Diesel 5. Mr. Perfect I have Owen ahead of Austin which some people might disagree with but I like the WM X match better than Survivor Series ’96, and the cage match from SummerSlam better than the submission match from WrestleMania. And then you have to factor in that Bret/Owen worked a number of other good matches with different stips (marathon, lumberjack, no holds barred) and produced some really good tags. Bret/Backlund had kind of a unique series of matches for the WWF at the time. Bret and Diesel did not work a traditional feud but the matches, even though they were spread out, did build off each other. It’s unfortunate the blow off wasn’t better, much like with Bret/Backlund. With Perfect, I like how the matches got progressively better over the years to the point where the ’93 one is a legitimate top 20 contender for greatest WWF matches ever. Honorable mentions to Shawn Michaels and Yokozuna.

Well, since you're going through it right now, it should be interesting to see what you think of the build for the major programs during the summer of '95. I haven't watched it in a while but it's hard for me to imagine that stuff like Diesel/Sid, Diesel/Mabel, or Bret v Dentists/Pirates was getting something not resembling Vince's typical booking philosophy.

WCW takes a massive nosedive right around the summer. Instead of giving Sting some solid guys to work with, he had feuds with Sid and the Black Scorpion. Arn, who should have been carrying the TV shows as TV champ, had some of the most boring matches imaginable with dudes like Allen Ironeagle, Terry Taylor, and Tom Zenk. The tag scene was the only thing worth watching for the rest of the year. As I wrote earlier in this thread, you will see a bunch of new guys debut but all of them will be really bad.

Is 10/93 better than 10/90? I think I've read you pimp the other match as well.

Yeah, I can see how someone would have reservations about lucha matwork. I like it for the creativity and smoothness. I also like the idea of title matches being wrestled clean and on the mat. I wonder what you think about Volk Han's shoot-style matwork? You probably wouldn't consider it contrived, at least. I sometimes find it hard to follow because Han is so fast and I know very little about MMA style submissions (although I guess that's really not a pre-requisite).

Probably my favorite of all the WAR/NJ tags. Hash and Choshu, both bloodied and standing side by side in the entrance way after the match sums it up for me.

Atlantis/Mascara Sagrada/Octagon vs. Pirata Morgan/Pierroth/Kendo Nagasaki, 8/25/91 Great, heated brawl to set up the feud between Mascara Sagrada and Pirata Morgan. Third caida was a little bit of a letdown but I still give this a strong recommendation for the set. Atlantis/Kevin Von Erich/Mascara Sagrada vs. Pirata Morgan/Chris Adams/Kendo Nagasaki, 9/1/91 I was hoping this would be good, picking up where the last match left off. It's also a cool looking match on paper with Kevin and Adams involved, but I didn't like this very much. You would think since Adams and Von Erich were good in working chaotic 6-mans in Texas that this might be a good match-up, but it was a styles clash (though I think Adams was okay). I wouldn't include this even for the novelty. I also watched Dandy/Mendoza/Dantes vs Salvaje/Moondogs, 8/25/91 and didn't think it was very good. Match just kind of dragged.

When I got my Hashimoto box set years ago, I remember this was one of the first few matches I watched. I know both guys aren't afraid to take their shots but I wasn't really expecting the sheer level of brutality that is on display here. Regal just opens up a can on Hashimoto. I would say this is on the level of the Regal/Finlay matches in terms of pure violence. Great match. The only minor negative thing I could say is that I'd like to have seen Hash dish out more of an ass whooping in return before closing it out.