elliott

I'm ready when yall are!

Looks like Tatsumi Fujinami is missing from the New Japan list. Just wanted some clarifications as a Japanese Promotion Booker: 1. I can draft from the Japan & Other groups, correct? 2. I can draft up to 5 people not born in Japan, correct? 3. Does this mean I am allowed to draft 5 people from the US Groups or can I only draft 5 non-Japanese from the "Other" category? 4. If I can indeed select up to 5 non Japanese-born people from the US Group, would a US born selection of a wrestler grouped in the "Other" category (lets call him Vader) count towards my 5 available non-Japanese born candidates? Like lets say Vader is in the "Other" Group and I pick him in the 3rd round. Then I wanted to put US Group guys Owen Hart, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Yokozuna and Sid in UWFi. Would I be allowed to draft all of those guys or would I miss out on Sid because of my Vader pick? That was overly complicated I know, but just want to make sure. I also wanted to cast a vote for adding guys from non-selected promotions like WAR or RINGS or All of Mexico just into a big free agency bucket available for drafting. Same for promotions like PWFG that are about to fold or BattlArts that are about to start. Thanks!

That's a nice beginning roster. UWFi would have been SO easy to save. I actually started working on fantasy booking UWFi post New Japan last year sometime but stopped so I could spend more time watching footage for GWE. So this is already something I've thought a lot about and worked on already. Its funny, UWFi knocking on death's door was actually soundly built up for the future if you just look at the age/skill level of their top performers. I assume I won't be bound to the New Japan vs UWFi feud that started up right around here. I'll count on running monthly shows at least. I assume I'll be Tier B and will probably carry the full 28 wrestlers. So I can already envision running "UWFi Young Lions" shows at Korakuen Hall in addition to my normal shows in bigger buildings. And since I already have the biggest draw in wrestling in the fall of 1995, if the draft breaks right and I land Shinya Hashimoto, I'm booking the Tokyo Dome, arguing for Tier A status, carrying 44 wrestlers and doing 3 big shows a month. Edit: Also, Kazuo Yamazaki was left off the list of UWFi wrestlers. I noticed it, but assumed you may have added him to the New Japan roster instead. He's not on any UWFi shows around this time so I'm not sure whats up. But just wanted to point him out as someone who should be in the draft. Even if he was on the list, I still want to protect Tamura, Sakuraba & Takayama.

Sweet! I'll protect Kiyoshi Tamura, Kazushi Sakuraba and Yoshihiro Takayama.

I need to read everything about this project to get fully up to speed but can I'd like to participate. Can I grab UWFi from Japan?

Current favorite wrestler to watch: I've been watching a ton of Low Ki lately. Early career stuff against Homicide, Bryan, Eddy, Xavier and Red. Middle career stuff like against Necro Butcher and Chris Hero. And I recently watched the Rey Jr match like 5 times. Fucking awesome wrestler. A lot of the early career stuff holds up better than I ever expected it would. I really wish he and Danielson actually worked in BattlArts instead of just taking some flavors of the style. Can you imagine a Ki vs Ikeda or Ono match? Last fun match you saw: Other than Rey vs Ki, my favorite match I've watched recently was Butch Reed vs Jerry Blackwell from St. Louis. That is an incredibly great match and anyone on the fence about either Blackwell or Reed needs to watch that shit right away. It has the single greatest "guy tries to slam a fat guy but can't because he's too fat" spot ever. EVER. Wrestler you want to see more of: I'm going to watch a shit ton of Homicide or Super Dragon next. I'm not sure which. Takeshi Ono is another. Last live show attended (if applicable/different from last time you answered): Oh god its been 15 years since I've been to a live show. Match you're most looking forward to watching: Are they ever going to do Brock vs Reigns 2? I'd watch that. Other than that its hard to say. Are there any interesting Rey Jr indy matches on the horizon? Oh. Puerto Rico & Portland. All of it. Duh. Last fun interview/promo you saw: Oh gosh, I dunno. I've just been watching random matches. Edit: You know what, that was a lie. I rewatched Rhodes Brothers vs The Shield from BattleGround 2013 and the Rhodes family promo absolutely is awesome. Last interesting thing you read about wrestling: I re-read the old Observer about AAA's first show at the LA Sports Arena in 1993. That was fun. I re-read The Destroyer's book within the last year or so and that was excellent. Last worthwhile podcast you listened to: Man that "Brawl for All" Between the Sheets was so great I am 100% convinced that if WWE announced Brawl for All 2016 I would start following them again. But really, just go listen to any Exile on Badstreet. Most fun you've had watching wrestling lately: Wrestling is always fun. Favorite recent post on this board: The one about PR and Portland Favorite thing about the wrestling landscape in the past three months (if you live in the past, then go with your past three months of time-traveling): I live in the past, but the women's match being a great match and the obvious show stealing match at WrestleMania this year has been probably the best thing to happen in 2016. And since I don't follow the modern product, I mean just in general.

Awesome episode! I actually just recently got and watched a Butch Reed set and it fucking rocked so this was a phenomenally timed companion piece. Kris Zellner for President.

There have been some weird vibes going on at PWO lately (seriously that Ryback thread, wtf people) and fuck that shit. It's time to feel good! The last time this happened was here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30792-quarterly-feel-good-poll-3/?hl=quarterly So turn on a Kamala match, pat your belly and feel good. Current favorite wrestler to watch: Last fun match you saw: Wrestler you want to see more of: Last live show attended (if applicable/different from last time you answered): Match you're most looking forward to watching: Last fun interview/promo you saw: Last interesting thing you read about wrestling: Last worthwhile podcast you listened to: Most fun you've had watching wrestling lately: Favorite recent post on this board: Favorite thing about the wrestling landscape in the past three months (if you live in the past, then go with your past three months of time-traveling):

Some WWE related against the grain opinions. Daniel Bryan vs John Cena is the best WWE match ever. Aside from the two famous matches against Austin, I think Bret vs Roddy Piper from WM 8 is the best match of Bret Hart's career. Rockers vs Haku & Barbarian WM VII was the best tag match in WM history. Brock vs Reigns is the best match in WrestleMania history. The first Survivor Series is an all time great PPV. At worst its in the top 20. The Rock was a great wrestler. If not Hulk Hogan, then Dusty Rhodes. HHH was always right about Jericho

Totally agree.

I haven't watched absolutely everything from his acclaimed 04-06 run but Samoa Joe is someone who doesn't resonate with me on any level. I admit he's in some really great matches from that time period but I'm just not into it. There's still a bunch of stuff for me to watch but I'd much rather watch Low Ki, Daniel Bryan, Necro Butcher, Super Dragon, Brisco Brothers, CM Punk, Aj Styles, Chris Hero and Homicide at least and probably a few guys I'm forgetting. I'm sort of crossed up between Dylan's Jumbo argument and Matt's Hansen argument about Samoa Joe. I see him as a great tool, I admit that he's been in some great matches, I get why people would like him, and I'm not at the point where I just can't watch his matches...but man I am not far off from it. Shit even though I mentioned him above as someone I like more than Samoa Joe in the 04-06 time period, I'm not really in love with Danielson in this time period either but I think that has more to do with all the Nigel McGuinness matches I've had to watch because of Bryan. The "goes too long" criticism is a real thing and while not nearly as bad as a lot of his peers, he was definitely prone to excess. I think the 2001 Low Ki match with Stemboat as guest ref is still the best Bryan match I've seen from the indies. I prefer "BattlArts Bryan" a lot more than "KENTA's Spirit Twin Bryan" and he seemed to spend a lot more time as KENTA's Spirit Twin than BattlArts Bryan. Again, this is probably Nigel McGuinness' fault. Fit Finlay is probably my biggest one, but no one wants to hear me bitch about Finlay. Same thing with All Japan. Oh, Nigel McGuinness and Kevin Steen are/were/and probably always will be terriblel. Just stop it, parts of the internet I'm not actually going to. Ok enough with the negativity. To take it a complete opposite direction, I've really enjoyed The Young Bucks in the small sampling I've seen so far. I had never seen a Bucks match until the last couple of months when I got Lord Helmet's 2000s MOTYC Sets. I read MattD's post in their thread and I had no idea what he was talking about but just assumed i would hate them. I kind of love them. They are completely ridiculous and over the top but it is much more charming than the ridiculous and over the top stylings of people like KENTA or Davey Richards or Nigel McGuinness. I dunno, I've watched probably 10 of their matches, I still don't know what MattD was talking about in his post, but I've enjoyed the matches in a Bad Boys 2 kind of way. This is more against the Meltzer Grain and only because I just watched a bunch of matches from there last night, but I fucking love AWA in the early 80s. There's just a plethora of fun workers and matches and the heat is often out of this world. The crowd heat for the 3/13/83 is beyond words. Also, excluding Lee Marshall and Eric Bischoff, I'd rather listen to any commentator the AWA wants to throw at me than Jim Ross. I'm not sure if this counts as an against the grain opinion, but I think that Rey Mysterio Jr vs Low Ki match was one of the 5 best Rey Jr singles matches I've seen. Speaking of Rey Jr matches, I thought Rey vs Dean Malenko was an awesome match-up in spite of what a lot of people say. I prefer Rey vs Dean to Dean vs Eddy and Rey vs Ultimo Dragon. I'm all the way in on the 619 now. It is like the People's Elbow but better. The People's Elbow is great because it is completely preposterous. The 619 is awesome for many reasons. One of which is how Rey builds entire matches around setting it up. They got that thing over to the point where I just saw Daisuke Ikeda attempt one in a 2010 BattlArts match. Great move. Just using the GWE Results as a Guideline for defining "the Grain" I think MS-1 is probably the most underrated wrestler ever. He finished 192 overall appearing on 22 ballots with a high vote of 34. This guy, oh man. We often focus on Sangre Chicana in the Sangre Chicana vs MS-1 match and I'm certainly guilty of that. I ranked Sangre Chicana 21 in the poll and MS-1 49th. Sangre actually finished 95th overall and on 46 ballots total. MS-1 is definitely hurt in the comparison because Sangre has other REALLY high end singles stuff outside that match that MS-1 doesn't have. But what we do have is the trios matches. And holy shit if El Satanico is the best trios match wrestler ever, then MS-1 is no worse than the 3rd or 4th. He was tremendous. Literally at no point in their time teaming together did MS-1 look like an inferior wrestler to Satanico. MS-1 may have been the sidekick, but as a wrestler he was a peer. He was an awesome brawler and mat wrestler so he could do a lot within Trios matches. And WHAT A RUDO! He was just a completely hateable prick. From the moment I hit submit on my GWE list, I knew MS-1 was my biggest mistake. He's a top 25 wrestler of all time. And if we were doing a list of top heels of all time, he's a top 10 candidate. MS-1 y'all. What were we thinking?

Well now I have to click on it. Please god, let there be explanations. edit: The first thing I see is "a definitive ranking of the top 101 wrestlers of all time." now I kind of want to do a running diary of my experience looking at this list. we're off to an incredible start. double edit: No really, go look at it. It is amazing. My favorite stretch is 85-80 which goes: Davey Boy Smith Blue Demon Jimmy Snuka Ed Lewis Kane Seth Rollins Like whoa. Parv will have a 2 Girls 1 Cup sort of reaction to this list. Please God, let Parv see this. "I feel like one day we'll look back on Miz the same way we look back on Ted Dibiase."

This is basically exactly how I feel. Lawler vs Dundee has the great matches for sure. But between the teaming together, the angles, promos, that familiarity you reference it is just the richest feud in wrestling. If we did a top 100 feuds of all time poll, I would rank Lawler/Dundee #1 overall because of that richness. It is hard to deny something like UWF vs NJ but I'm far more likely to give credit to the feud between 2 guys that lasted 30 years than the one that had 15 guys and lasted 2 years. And while Flair/Steamboat certainly has the matches to compete, I don't think it has the richness of Lawler/Dundee. Flair/Steamboat always feels like wrestling. Lawler/Dundee is one of those rare feuds that transcends that and feels like life or death.

I actually agree that Tamura had better matches with those guys. I might actually like the 1/98 Ilioukhine match more than any of the Han matches at this point. But I also think the Han matches are still like all time all time great matches and have no problem with someone thinking they're better than Flair/Steamboat as a whole. I'll have to think more about it before saying for sure, but I certainly think Han/Tamura are working with a higher degree of difficulty. I also agree with the point about these being torchbearer rivalries but I think Flair/Steamboat was as much a torchbearer for its style as Tamura/Han. I think Flair/Steamboat was the prefect summation of wrestling's "best" past and Han/Tamura was the perfect summation of wrestling's "best" future we didn't get to actually see. Because of when the feuds happened, Flair/Steamboat was a glimpse to the past. In a world with Fujiwara & Maeda, Jumbo & Tenryu, El Dandy & Hijo del Santo, what Flair & Steamboat were doing wasn't really "state of the art." It was the culmination of the previous era's style. Because of the way things worked out in Japan, Han/Tamura in a way kind of represents the high point of a dying style. But Tamura/Han felt/looks state of the art for its time. That starts to get built on with Tamura's matches with Kohsaka & Yamamoto but then the style basically dies out when shoots take off and we don't get to see where it was all heading (which was probably to all shoots anyway). So I have no idea which to vote for.

The argument for Terry Funk as the best wrestler in the history of All Japan is going to be pretty much the same argument as Terry Funk as the best wrestler of all time. Obviously he didn't spend 30 years in All Japan so his longevity argument is going to take a hit but the versatility argument remains. Funk's work in All Japan shows incredible depth as he has some of the best singles & tags in the promotion's history. He has classic brawls and title/technical matches both in singles and tags. Funk's resume' in All Japan is much broader than the Pillars even if the Pillars may have reached greater heights. Hansen's case as the best wrestler in the history of All Japan is going to pretty much be the same argument as Hansen as the best wrestler of all time. We're looking for an 18 year period of his career so his longevity argument is largely intact (not saying he was the best or even great for that entire 18 year period or anything, just pointing out the vast majority of his career is in All Japan). His consistency, great matches, peak, etc is pretty much all intact. He loses some terrific stuff like vs Colon and Andre, but really I think there's an argument to be made for Hansen at #1 all time just based on his All Japan run. He's maybe the best wrestler ever in terms of understanding his role and how he should work to best express that role in the ring. I get OJ's point that to be #1 you have to be the pinnacle of the promotion and Funk & Hansen weren't involved in it. I get that argument. And if you think Jumbo/Tenryu or MIsawa/Kawada or Misawa/Kobashi is the pinnacle of the promotion then sure you're going to scoff at the notion of ranking Funk and/or Hansen above all those guys. So a lot of this is going to come down to style preference. I'd concede the argument that Jumbo vs Tenryu is the pinnacle of All Japan. I really don't want to argue against that feud. But... I prefer Hansen vs Kobashi to Misawa vs Kawada or MIsawa vs Kobashi. I prefer Funk vs Hansen to Misawa vs Kawada or Misawa vs Kobashi. Even the tags which is crazy considering the Dory Jr/Brody factor. I wouldn't argue Funk Brothers vs Sheik & Abby ahead of Choshu/Yatsu vs Jumbo/Tenryu either, but I prefer those FUnks matches to the big 90s tag stuff. And then when you partner the Abby/Sheik feud with the best matches against Baba & Jumbo, the Robinson & Hoffman match you get a much more interesting picture of tag wrestling than "This time they want 30 minutes, this time they went 40 minutes this time they want 60 minutes." Like I said, this is going to really come down to preference. When I revisited All Japan 90s stuff for GWE I was kind of struck by how much of it wasn't hitting the mark for me. Dylan talking about being down on 90s All Japan really stood out to me because I was thinking about a lot of those same things when revisiting stuff. It really does happen on a match by match basis. There is stuff I still love like Kobashi/Kikuchi vs Kroffat/Furnas match. Hansen/Kobashi. The early Misawa/Kawada matches (I love the 4/93 Carnival match no one ever talks about). But I was rolling my eyes at kickout overkill as early as the famous first 4 Pillars tag on 6/93. I was like "oh fuck, I'm in trouble if I'm hating this." Then I watched 12/93 a few days later and I fucking loved it and thought it held up as an all time great match. That got worse and worse as the decade wore on though. There isn't a Misawa/Kawada singles match I really like after 1994. Oddly enough Misawa/Kobashi 1/97 still hits the mark for me but it is literally the only Misawa/KObashi match I think compares to Hansen/Funk 4/83. I really didn't have those problems watching Funk & Hansen in All Japan. I tend to like the majority of their matches for 10-12 years. And they have the advantage of the matches I don't like being of the 10-20 minute variety instead of the 30-60minute variety of the pillars. The more I think about it the more convinced I am that Funk & Hansen are above the pillars. Jumbo & Tenryu are a little tougher. I think Tenryu's run from 85-89 is probably the best 5 year stretch for any worker in All Japan's history. But before that he didn't compare to Funk as a worker from 72-83 + 85 or Hansen from 82-94. If we're looking strictly at peak, yeah Tenryu for sure. But I think its fair to rank Funk & Hansen above Tenryu because there is twice as much quality work and Funk has the variety of work argument as well. I can't forget about 2000 Tenryu which adds another year and maybe 2001 as well but I would need to rewatch more to say for certain. Jumbo is someone I'm conflicted on. I think he was really good as a youngster against more experienced wrestlers. Jumbo keeps up and adds a lot to those matches, but I think it is pretty clear he is being led through matches by those veterans. He was like the best luggage in the world in the 70s. I know that probably comes across as a backhanded compliment. But it really shouldn't. If you're a 4th year wrestler going up against Jack Brisco or Harley Race or Terry Funk in the middle of their prime, those guys should be leading you through the match. So I can't really say Jumbo is better than a guy leading him through matches. Its become a common criticism at this point to say that Jumbo's early 80s is disappointing. I don't think it is awful or anything like that but I'm certainly down on it now that I've seen more of guys like Tatsumi Fujinami, Buddy Rose, El Satanico, Lawler, Bockwinkel, etc than I had 15 years ago. There are definitely some high points for Jumbo. Jumbo Fans will always point to Jumbo vs Kerry as the match even Jumbo Haters can't deny during this time period. But while I love that match, I don't think it's totally insane to have a great match with Kerry Von Erich in 1984 because Kerry had already been in a bunch of great matches and was a great worker by 1984. That match was two great wrestlers having a great match together. Same thing with Rick Martel. Having a great match with guys who have a bunch of great matches to their name isn't some amazing feat. It is great wrestlers having great matches together. My "thing" with Jumbo, is I felt he needed to be pushed to be great and he was more of a reactive wrestler. Funk, Hansen, Choshu, Tenryu, etc are guys who were pushing their matches. Be it pace, aggression or general atmosphere. Jumbo was able to step up and rise to the occasion when Choshu came in and Tenryu turned on him. Thinking about it more philosophically, I think this is another style preference but instead of a wrestling style is a role style. I like the style Jumbo is wrestling against Choshu & Tenryu. I love those feuds/matches and think Jumbo is excellent in them. I prefer the underdog/the rebel/the instigator/the revolutionary. Jumbo always represented the status qo. Perhaps it is because of the booking and what we know about Baba but I always get the impression that Jumbo would have kept wrestling the same NWA Title match style forever if Choshu didn't come in. That's a criticism and it isn't. It could definitely produce great stuff as the best Jumbo matches vs Funk, Flair, Murdoch, Kerry, Martel etc show. But Choshu changed things for the positive and then Tenryu built on tat and took everything to a new level. Jumbo did a great job changing up and reacting to the changes. So while I may not think Choshu & Tenryu are always the "best" wrestler in the matches and I concede that they couldn't play their roles without Jumbo and he stepped up and was the perfect foil for them, I just like what Choshu/Tenryu (and even Yatsu) are doing more. I prefer what they represent and how they manifest that into the match. They're the ones pushing the action and adding aggression and forcing Jumbo to react to it. Jumbo is great reacting to it. But he's still reacting to it. One cool thing about Jumbo's career that Jumbo fans always point to is that 3 stages of Jumbo from young lion to ace to grumpy jumbo. It makes for a great narrative for Jumbo to be GOAT. And it is an easy one to follow. There are clear changes in the way he works over the years. Part of it is age but a lot it is guys pushing him to change. And I really like those guys pushing Jumbo to change. I would rank Jumbo ahead of Tenryu in spite of whatever the fuck that rambling non-sense above was because of the longevity and the fact that he was never bad. There are matches and stretches of his career I don't love and I think his best work is often the result of other people pushing him to another level, but there was never a point in his relevant career that I'd say he was less than a very good wrestler. I can't say the same for Tenryu's pre 85 work. Funk wasn't a guy who was able to alter the style of wrestling like Choshu/Tenryu but on a match by match basis in All Japan, Terry Funk is always the guy pushing the issue. From 72-83, Terry is probably the best guy in every single match he's in. And he's in some of the best matches to ever happen in that time period. So while Jumbo's absolute peak might be better than Funk's I can't really put a guy who spent most of his career as the world's greatest luggage above a guy who was the best wrestler in every match he was in in the company for 12 years. Giant Baba was a case of moving the goal posts a little bit a relying more heavily on longevity. Baba swamps the Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi/Taue/Akiyama in terms of longevity. Obviously there are inherent advantages Baba has in this regard. But at some point you can't really ignore it. I've already indicated I like the Baba/Jumbo vs Funks tags. I really enjoy most of the 70s work you're already going to know about, vs Brisco, vs Robinson, some of the Race stuff, etc. One place we probably differ is I probably love the Hansen/Baba match-up more than anyone. I'm not going to argue any of them are better than the best Misawa/Kawada etc matchup or even better than the best few from the Usual Suspect feuds. But I really really love the Hansen vs Baba series.

It sort of depends. Something like UWF vs New Japan is probably the single greatest feud ever in terms of super high end matches but it was an interpromotional feud with a dozen or so wrestlers. It feels unfair to compare Lawler vs Dundee to a feud that has stuff like Fujiwara vs Choshu, Maeda vs Fujinami, all the 10 man tags and elimination matches etc. But Lawler vs Dundee makes up for it for lasting 30 years. In terms of "Eternal Rivalries" which is what I think of when I think of Lawler/Dundee and Flair/Steamboat I'd say stuff like: Lawler vs Funk Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas El Satanico vs El Dandy Jumbo vs Tenryu Hashimoto vs Choshu Ishikawa vs Ikeda all hold a candle to Lawler/Dundee and Flair/Steamboat. But I still say Lawler vs Dundee is the best. And Lawler vs Andy Kaufman is #2.

Lawler vs Dundee. You were all thinking it.

The Kato Kung Lee match and the 3 way with Pirata and Jerry Estrada are definitely the worst Satanico matches I've seen. I can see Satanico not liking his time in AAA but he still had some really great stuff there.