ohtani's jacket

I doubt that a young guy on an excursion to Mexico, in what was likely his first singles match in the country, was brought down by an experienced vet like Satanico. The young Japanese guys generally struggled on these excursions facing all sorts of problems with the language barrier and a fair degree of culture shock. Wrestling wise, he'd probably spent a few months working trios bouts in order to learn the style, how to work from the right, and so on. In fact, I'd wager the reason they bought him in a match with Satanico was because they knew Satanico could carry him (and that's a pun, brother.) They did the same thing with their star project, Atlantis, coming off the 1983 Anniversary Show. The reason Satanico's bumps look strange may have something to do with how hard the lucha mats are. Or it may be Satanico being awesome.

With regard to this, I often wonder what people are referring to when they say they've tried getting into lucha. Does it mean they tried following cubsfan's uploads, or watched the matches getting MOTY hype, or does it mean they've tried to watch some of the more famous bouts? I don't think lucha lends itself well to a random sampling, but at the same time you have to be open to the idea of liking lucha to really get into it through the great match approach. The way that I got into it was to watch the '89 and '90 seasons. Japanese wrestling was the opposite. I had a laundry list of great matches I wanted to see right from the beginning. With lucha it was more about learning who the characters were and enjoying their interactions. The critical analysis came later. But as I've said before, I wasn't trying to like lucha, I wanted to like lucha. I liked the fact that it was different. I still like the fact that it's different. The notion that lucha would be better, or more accessible/acceptable, if it were closer in style to Mid-South, Crockett or All Japan seems contrary to the spirit of wrestling. Throughout its history, wrestling has expressed itself differently in different countries and territories. That point of difference and diversity has been crucial to it thriving. Even if you don't see lucha as a special brand of entertainment, you can at least appreciate that it's something different.

I know that lucha is centrally about masculinity, and with regard to machismo, there is plenty of posturing in your typical lucha bout; but the majority of that behaviour occurs in the nightly trios bouts. If you watch a traditional title bout, both wrestlers adhere to the rules irrespective of which code they belong to. Both men use their talent and skill to fight for the title. The end goal may be to prove themselves technically superior to their opponent but it's usually done in a sporting manner. Apuesta matches are a different kettle of fish and largely about machismo and leaving your opponent humiliated. They're not so much about showing off though but rather what happens when all that posturing and showboating leads to tempers flaring.

#344 This was the extreme version of their touring match and was full of tables and chairs and all sorts of crazy dives. I'm more partial to Psicosis doing comedy rudo spots, but it's pointless to complain about those sort of things in a match like this -- it's ECW, you know what you're getting. I respected the way they were able to tweak their tour match to fit the territory they were working. I also had a lot of fun watching this with my six-year-old daughter. She was peaking over my shoulder checking links to her favourite YouTube vids when the costumes drew her attention. Immediately, she recognized that Psicosis was the heel and Misterio was the face. According to her, Psicosis had a scary mask and was strange looking. She cheered Misterio on and admonished Psicosis for being "warui" (bad.) She even pretended to box him on the nose, which was cute. ECW is a bit violent for a six-year-old, and I cringed when she described to her mother what happened with the table, but it took me back to my own childhood and watching with shock as Outlaw Ron Bass attacked Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake with his spurs. Props to Mistero and Psicosis for delivering a bit of awe and wonderment to my daughter even if she forgot about it two seconds later when she commandeered the computer to watch unboxing videos.

Shoot style was an offshoot of what Inoki began in the 70s. Besides, the native wrestling style in Japan is sumo.

But it's different and challenges you to think more than "oh look at Kobashi chop this guy really hard" so just say it sucks and move on. I do feel victimised for not liking lucha, truth be told. No doubt related to your hang-up about people actually liking lucha

That's too bad. One of the things about Cota that doesn't really come across in the footage we have is that he used to rent random costumes from fancy dress shops and wear them to the ring each week. You can see it a bit in his AAA run after he was released from prison.

#349 This was a nice preliminary bout. Scrappy, but in a good way. Kanehara took most of the fight and looked like he might have a future in the sport, but of course the shoot guys could never keep their groups together.

Got through another block of 50. The matches I enjoyed most: 398. Kiyoshi Tamura vs Kazuo Yamazaki (UWFI 10/23/92) 389. Steve Austin & Brian Pillman vs Marcus Bagwell & 2 Cold Scorpio (WCW Worldwide 05/08/93) 381. Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada (AJPW Tokyo Dome 05/01/98) 370. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Steve Williams & Johnny Ace (AJPW Excite Series 03/04/95) 360. Toshiaki Kawada vs Gary Albright (AJPW October Giant Series 10/25/95) 351. Kazushi Sakuraba & Masahito Kakihara vs Gene Lydick & Steve Nelson (UWFI 06/10/94)

Is there such a thing as a hardcore WoS fan who looks down on lucha fans looking down on Japanese wrestling fans looking down on US wrestling fans?

Eddie wasn't that great in Mexico. I don't think it's a case of WCW luchadores like Psicosis or Juventud where you can argue that they were better in Mexico than they were in WCW. Eddie, for my money, improved while working in WCW. I'm not even sure how much Eddie in Mexico you've seen beyond wanting to make a flippant comment, but it's difficult for me to imagine he looked great compared to Casas carrying him in Juarez, Apolo Dantes looking every bit the same son of a "legend" in '91, or working with Santo in '94.

The same applies to european wrestling. European wrestling never received any of the awards you are talking about there. I also just looked over the last 2 pages of the ***** / **** 3/4 matches thread and there were only 2 or 3 matches from europe there compared to almost everyone having matches from mexico in their list. In fact, lucha is much better represented than WoS or CWA. On the 90s yearbooks, there were only a handful of european matches but dozens of mexican ones. Actually there is near zero discussion on 90s european wrestling. Jim Breaks, probably the most beloved WoS worker, didn't even make the Top 50 in the GWE, while the two top rated brit guys all worked extensively in the US and japan. OJ has written a lot about it on this site but there's not much more discussion than that compared to the endless talking about lucha. Otto Wanz vs. Vader is almost never mentioned as one of the best feuds of the 80s. Wanz and many other deserving euro workers still are' in the WON Hall of Fame. Could it be? Are people not giving european wresting a fair shake? Is there something going on? Do I need to ignore people who praise 90s AJPW and El Dandy but don't even know the likes of Mile Zrno or Alan Kilby? Did the british not import enough US cultural hegemony? Is Meltz a US imperialist? Or could it be that people largely just don't like it/don't feel inspired to get really into it? I think it's as simple as that most people in these circles got into wrestling through North American wrestling. Japanese wrestling is really very similar from an in ring standpoint. The match structure, the moves and holds used and even a lot of the wrestlers themselves (particularly in the 89s and 90s) are familiar to a North American wrestling fan. It's just so much more accessible. The Lucha and European styles are different beasts entirely. Someone used to US wrestling has to pretty much 'forget' how wrestling works when watching Lucha or WoS/CWA. Personally, I watched British wrestling first as a child before being exposed to WWF/WCW later on. I think it's easier to go that way than the other direction. On the other hand, I've always found Lucha more difficult. I've watched a fair few highly regarded matches but just can't get into it at a deeper level. I guess it's like if you speak Swedish, you can have good shot at understanding things in Norway or Denmark but if you went to China you'd have to start from the beginning. It's all just speaking, listening and reading but some languages are easier to flit between than others. I think it's not just the style but the world or "universe". The worlds of NWA, AWA, Mid-South, AJPW, NJPW, even Memphis and Puerto Rico are all interconnected, part of the same universe. Like DC comics or something. Each promotion is like a title within an overarching universe. I guess in this analogy WWE would be Marvel, especially after Vince hermetically sealed it off. Flair in 91-2 is a huge crossover event. NWO is an even bigger one. Lucha and WOS and Wanz don't belong in these universes, they are like I dunno Valiant comics, whatever, some unconnected publication. That's the easiest way I can think to explain why they get less attention typically -- beyond just the style / taste stuff we've talked about. Different tangent but I kind of like the idea that WoS is similar to British comics like 2000 AD or Viz w/ French catch being similar to those French comics that fund the Toulouse rugby team, or Asterisk or Tintin (even if that was Belgian.) But Japan has a robust comic book industry that doesn't quite fit the shared universe analogy. If anything, the success of Japanese comic books further highlights the commonly held belief that the Japanese are very good and copying (and improving things) as opposed to coming up with original ideas. This may be why some fans feel as though Japanese wrestling perfected the wrestling they grew up with, particularly disgruntled fans.

Perhaps a better way to approach this is how lucha fans can help to make lucha more appealing or accessible for new fans. Other people have spelled out why Japanese wrestling has always been more appealing to hardcore fans than lucha; the one thing I would add is that when I first started branching out, and became interested in wrestling from other countries, much of the groundwork had already been done for Japan. You knew which tapes to get because of jdw's pimping posts, DVDVR, etc. It didn't matter whether it was All Japan, New Japan juniors or Joshi, all of the information was out there. Lucha these days is a million times more accessible in terms of how much content is online. Ten years ago there was very little lucha uploaded onto the internet. Where it's lacking is the narrative detail. I tried really hard when I was doing the Lucha History Lessons stuff to find more information about lucha history by doing rudimentary searches in Spanish. People will never be able to follow lucha the way they follow 90s All Japan through commercial tapes and season sets, and the Misawa narrative and Kawada narrative, but if they know as much as they can about Sangre Chicana (for example), who he was and what he was doing in the early 80s, then I think it makes a difference because it creates greater excitement than the name being thrown out there. Before I ever ordered a tape, I remember getting excited about constantly "hearing" the name Kawada or Misawa. You heard it so much that you felt like you were missing out on something by not being part of the tape trading circle. The only luchador that was build up that much was Santo and even then it wasn't comparable to Liger. This hasn't been a very articulate or well thought out post, but I think you have to give people a reason to be excited about lucha.

#345 This was all right, but at the end of the day it was 10 min footage of a backstage brawl. I was surprised by how highly Loss rated this.

If you like this then I recommend checking out Sakuraba/Kakihara vs. Lydick/Scott, which is also very good. The Lydick v. Kakihara singles match it builds to is a bit underwhelming, though. Tamura/Lydick vs. Kakihara/Nelson is decent but not as good as the two Sakuraba/Kakihara tags, IMO.

If you enjoyed this then both of the Chono/Anjoh fights are worth watching, particularly the first one which sets up this tag. Super heated and fun, and more of the same. Possibly the only time I can go along with low blows in a shoot style environment.

#353 On the plus side, this is the most "lucha" of the lucha matches that have been listed thus far. I think the ref is probably the best thing about this bout. He's exactly the sort of ref you'd expect to be reffing lucha. As for the rest of the bout, I witnessed a more disjointed and uninspired version of the bout that Loss described. I thought it lacked the genius of great lucha and didn't have a single beat I'd describe as a Fuerza Guerrera Moment. Rey vs. Juventud was okay, but they had better matches elsewhere. A draw was a fitting result in this as neither team took the bull by the horns and the whole thing felt like the warm up to the main event for ,me. The rematch is more direct but has even less narrative focus. Granted, it's kind of difficult for me to think of Juventud as Fuerza's son since Fuerza himself seems so ageless. And Fuerza vs. Misterio Sr. doesn't seem like a rivalry as such. That leaves Rey vs. Juvie as age group rivals, and a more important match-up than Fuerza/Misterio Sr, MO. The younger workers deliver here, but they had better singles matches than this and the veteran workers didn't steer the action hard enough, to be fair.

#370 The first thing I noticed about this was that the file length was 44 mins long. That reminded me of back in the day when you'd order a 3 hour custom comp in EP mode and 44 minutes would take up a huge chunk of your comp. How times have changed. I have no idea whether I've seen this or not, but I do know that I really liked it. Long All Japan matches are an immediate turn off to me but this kept me engrossed for a good 35 minutes. Johnny Ace did an unbelievable job of sustaining his accuracy and level of performance over 30 mins+ , and while Williams didn't look in the best of health compared to his '94 run, he still brought a huge degree of intensity. Probably the best thing about the bout is something that doesn't work in every match in Japan but worked here, and that's the aggression and disrespectful attitude that the Americans brought. There are times when you watch a match like this and the Americans will trash talk and the Japanese wrestlers will ignore them and go through their thought processes, but Williams managed to rile Misawa and get his ire up. That added another wrinkle to All Japan (Misawa vs. Williams, that is) and was in all honesty more meaningful than anything Misawa vs. Hansen ever offered. Not sure I agree with Loss here that the match as split into the two feuds/match-ups. I thought there was an even amount of action between all four contestants and that it was an exceptionally well-worked tag match outside of the framework of native vs. native teams that dominated All Japan from the Choshu invasion onward. Better than any of the Wiliams/Gordy vs. Misawa/Kawada tags from memory and maybe the best native vs. foreigners tag of the 90s.

#360 It's been many a moon since I last saw this. Great match. One of Kawada's best. The thing I like about it most is that Kawada's not trying to work shoot style. The only weapon he takes into the fight to contend with the newcomer's style is the armbar. Aside from that, he uses a lot of his signature offence even in the submission wrestling. The bout is made by the fact that Kawada has the grittiest style of the big four and is a great seller. I especially liked the way he sold the Albright German he tried to pop up from. More wrestlers should try popping up and collapsing. That's a smart spot. I also liked the headscissors counter he did. It was a great counter but still felt like a pro-wrestler finding their way in the dark against a "shoot guy" unlike the shoot trained counters that the UWF guys would do. At no point did it seem like Kawada was anything more than an All Japan trained pro-wrestler trying to adjust to a guy with an entirely different fighting style, and I thought he did a beautiful job of conveying that.

#372 I've always liked Misawa & Kawada vs. Jumbo & Taue as a match-up, so I thought I'd treat myself to a rewatch of this. 1991 All Japan was a simpler style of wrestling than the years that followed but Misawa & Co. were younger, and quicker, and more athletic. They weren't as banged up as in the years to come and there was a crispness to their work than you don't find in their later work. The best thing about this match is watching Kawada and Misawa deal with the Jumbo problem. They try their damnedest to knock his block off and for once they actually succeed. The only misstep in this was Misawa's tape falling off. They took forever to tape his shoulder up and it was about as effective as if they'd used the pre-match streamers. This wasn't as deliberately epic as a lot of other All Japan tags but more fun, IMO.

#357 Another match not watched in donkey's years. This was kind of an experimental MMA style bout. Not the first of its kind in Joshi but definitely the most well known. It reminded me a bit of those Don Nakaya Nielsen fights from the 80s in that it was clearly dated but still retained some of its novelty value. A few things hurt it. Firstly, there were no rope breaks and they were allowed to fight on the outside. Secondly, the submissions were sold like regular Joshi submission holds, which meant that they lay in the holds forever. This was particularly hard to watch having just seen some higher end UWF-i. The stand up fighting was better than the submission wrestling, though they used too many pro-wrestling moves down the stretch. Thankfully, they returned to striking and Hotta's kick at the end was brutal looking. I thought this was watchable but it wasn't something I particularly liked. There's plenty of better hybrid stuff from the 90s in my view.

#35１ This was another match I was skeptical about. Shoot style tags remind me a lot of doubles in tennis. I love tennis, but I really, if ever, watch doubles. The only time I really watch doubles is if I'm watching tennis live. But this was an excellent match. The reason it was so good was that everyone knew their role. Nelson was clearly better at selling than Lydick, and better at reversals and counters, but Lydick looked more dominant on the mat. And so Lydick looked good working from on top while Nelson did most of the selling. Likewise, Kakihara was the better striker on his team and Sakuraba better at mat work. You didn't see too much stand up work from Sakuraba and not that much ground work from Kakihara. Really disciplined match in that respect. Post match buzz and all, but it's hard to think of a better midcard match that's shown up on the list thus far.

#367 This wasn't as exciting as the Yamazaki fight, but it was a different sort of match. Here the promising up and comer took on the top dog, who was meant to be his superior in every way both in his striking and groundwork and submissions. The work was pretty at times but laid out in a fairly obvious way. You knew exactly when Tamura would get each of his "hope spots," so to speak. It was effective in terms of where Tamura was at in terms of mounting a challenge against Takada but point blank obvious in terms of its delivery. One thing I'll say for it is that Takada looked better on the mat than usual. Other than that, my main takeaways were that Tamura clearly improved his striking ability as he matured, and for whatever reason bookers and promoters were never afraid to job out poor old Yamazaki.

#355 The work here wasn't that great but they made up for it with plenty of spite. Anjoh was such a dick in this. He's such a smug little prick. You love him and wanna see someone wipe the shit eating grin off his face all at the same time. Surprisingly, that person you want to see do the grin wiping is none other than Chono. I came out of this wanting to see the Chono/Anjoh singles matches, which is not something I expected going in. So, thumbs up to this.

#388 I can't say I'm a fan of Psicosis acting like a member of the NWO. That's not the Psicosis I get a kick out of. The action here is pretty good; but it's very much a house show version of the touring Santo show, and a 1997 Tijuana version at that. The stuff you'd expect to look good looked good, but the general tone was toward house show lucha, and I have a hard time seeing how this comes close to the top 10 for an extremely stacked year in lucha.