ohtani's jacket

That McGill/Torres match was indeed awesome. I've love to see more Torres. He was pretty damn slick. I also saw a match between Larry Chene and Gordon Hessell where they teased some open palm strike exchanges and one of them every rolled up into a George Kidd ball albeit less compact.

People don't just view wrestling through its matches, though. A lot of people focus on workers, others focus on promotions, TV shows, and entire years or decades worth of footage. It seems to me that there is already plenty of variety out there.

Also why are we pretending that wrestling men like Watts and Cornette didn't fail in the 90s? I don't believe there is a single booker from the old-school era that could have succeeded from the 90s onward.

Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad aren't filmed in front of a live audience and don't feature actors trying to elicit reactions from the crowd. The turning point in wrestling was when wrestlers began addressing the crowds directly in every single promo. That led to 25 minute opening monologues and filtered through to pretty much every angle that took place in the ring. Wrestlers battling over the mic and calling on the audience to participate along with the proliferation of call and response catchphrases were the roots of "this is awesome chants." If you wanna have a go at the crowds you should also have a go at Austin's "What" shit, Road Dog, The Rock, and so on. And at the TV writers and the writing committees. But remember that when it first began it as novel. The WWF in 1997 was fresh and exciting (at least at the main event level.) The problem with wrestling today is that they haven't done anything that fresh since. Wrestling today is not that different from 1997. Certainly not as different as wrestling in 1997 was from 1977.

I suspect he was raising valid points in that interview too. Well, let's see: Rogers says some of the things they're doing today insult people's intelligence and that there's no need to resort to them. He thinks they should get back to wrestling and that there should be more rules. In his day there were suspensions and fines, and he tells some story about how he was suspended for two years from the state of New York for shoving a guy after a match was over. The interviewer mentions that nowadays guys are bringing chairs into the ring and Rogers says they use everything next to machine guns if they can carry it in there. He says it's ridiculous because there's some super wrestlers like Backlund and Muraco. The interviewer blames it on the promoters and Rogers goes off on a tangent about how wrestling can still draw because it's the second oldest sport in the world next to running. The interviewer senses that Rogers wouldn't mind getting back into the sport and having some control over it and Rogers admits he wouldn't mind getting back into the business in a "supervisory" role. Rogers knows he could do a lot for wrestling and mentions a young guy he managed in Florida who is the greatest athlete he's seen in wrestling in the last 25 years and would set the place on fire. That man being Jimmy Snuka. Rogers calls wrestling the greatest show on earth. It's got action, it's got strength, it's got "everything about it," and if they resorted more to wrestling it would even be greater. The public don't want to see constant kicking and hair pulling. They want to see some holds. In Rogers' day they had holds where a guy would give up or you'd beat a guy with a hold and you hardly see that today. The interviewer says everyone has a costume these days and Rogers says you don't need that. There's such a thing as charisma and being colourful but you can overdo that too. Later on, the interview gets a good line in about how Rogers used to hang out with Nat King Cole and how he couldn't imagine Backlund hobnobbing with Barbara Streisand. ................................................................ You can interpret Rogers' comments anyway you like. Maybe there was more wrestling in Rogers' day but there was also a hell of a lot of the stuff that "insulted people's intelligence." And everything that is wrong about wrestling "today" can be found in Sheik vs. Slaughter, which last I checked is considered pretty much the height of that era.

It happens with every generation. I watched a sit down interview with Buddy Rogers where he shat all over the early 80s WWWF that Titans review. One day Ospreay and Ricochet will be lecturing some young punks on how to work properly.

Black Terry, Jr's handhelds were better back then! "What's a handheld, Grandpa Parties?"

I can only imagine a future 30 years from now where people are making "Best of the 10s" sets and arguing that "This is awesome!" chants are better than whatever we've evolved into then. These young guys with their Twitter will be the AIM messengers of tomorrow. Already folks are nostalgic for Pokemon so the next wave has already begun. TIME STANDS STILL FOR NO MAN. young sprogs.

"This is awesome!" chants suck but at the same time it should be acknowledged that there's a type of romanticism involved in looking back at old footage and "crowd gazing" whether it be atmosphere, fashion, previous social norms (like smoking at a sports event), or even enthusiasm and the heat generated. I mean the whole crowd argument is no different from watching an old Boston Garden crowd and thinking it's better than a 2016 NBA crowd or watching grainy, poorly lit lucha footage and thinking it's better than a bright, sterilized Arena Mexico plastered with commercials for Japanese camera makers. The thing about wrestling is that if you're caught up in the here and now then it's like following a sport where you care what happens next. If you watch older stuff then it's like watching old movies where the aesthetics are important. With that in mind, I look forward to seeing the cut-off point for today's whippersnappers where they stop keeping up with the current product and wax lyrically about 2010 or 12.

The real enemy is the internet. In which case Parv should go off the grid.

Benito Gardini vs. Al Warshawksi -- Gardini is worth watching if you like fat boy wrestling and I know many of you do. He's almost like Super Porky without the comedy. They work a few decent holds and Gardini is fun. Billy Darnell vs. Hans Hermann -- Hermann was a big strong "German" in the Fritz Von Erich mold. Some decent grappling in this and some nice strength holds. Darnell worked Hermann over with some nice punch combos and looked like a decent worker. Not much to see here.

Outrageously hipster. I thought this was the "absolute favourite wrestling companies" thread not your most staid opinions on pro-wrestling! Besides, IWRG is the only really hipster pick. Maybe JWP and PWFG but I also included the major promotions for Joshi and shoot style. Fred Kohler's promotion might join my list soon.

I expected Eddie to fall further than this since there wasn't much critical attention paid to him between 2006 and 2016 but I guess it's a testament to how popular he was with fans that he remains one of their all-time favourite wrestlers. There are differing opinions on how good Eddie was before his 1997 heel turn where it all came together character-wise, I'm not a huge fan of his early tecnico stuff in Mexico, but I imagine if you grew up watching the Ciudad Juarez territory that you might have been into his as a rising young babyface. His Los Gringos run has some bright spots (particularly the trios match where Eddie turns on Santo) but is mostly overrated, especially the tag matches with Santo and Octagon. There were people who swore by his New Japan work and for a long time his 1996 BoSJ bout with Benoit was held up as an example of juniors wrestling "done right." People also enjoyed his early babyface work in WCW. But for me it all came together in that 1997 heel run, which was the catalyst for his artistic peak from 2004-05. Eddie was phenomenal in those years, though the toll it took on his body was devastating. Eddie took a while to adjust to the WWE. He wasn't a front runner for best worker in the company during the Smackdown Six era, but from that group of workers only Mysterio rivaled the creative peak that Eddie achieved in its wake. The biggest compliment I can pay Guerrero from that run is that it was very similar to Austin, Rock and Foley from the Attitude era in that it didn't matter whether they played heel or face, their charisma transcended either role. Eddie was the same. Hugely charismatic. The total it took on him is a dark shadow on all this praise but his ring work deserves to be remembered.

I feel like I wrote a lot about Tenryu in his nominee thread so I'll just repost that:

Jim Dobie vs. Lou Britton -- Nice bout. Britton was the superior wrestler but Dobie was able to evade him and eventually grind him down. Britton had a quality moustache. Don Beitelman vs Dick Hatcher -- solid heavyweight contest. Pretty even contest on the mat but a bit too much lying around. Good skills for a pair of big men. Beitelman went on to become Don Curtis, longtime tag partner of Mark Lewin.

EMLL/CMLL 1983-1992 and 1996-97 Joint Promotions 1974-1984 JWP 1992-1997 All Japan Women 1977-1993 WCW 1989-1994 UWF I & II 1984-85 and 1988-90 PWFG 1991-1993 RINGS 1991-1999 IWRG 2008-2010

Black Terry vs. Barbaro Cavernario, Cara Lucha 6/11/16 Holy crap this was awesome. I haven't seen Terry wrestle for a couple of years and barely recognised him with the bald head and yellow t-shirt, but brawling Terry was always my favourite kind of Terry and he brought the same level of stiffness as his Hechicero matches from a few years back. I watched this straight after the LA Park/Rush Liga Elite mano a mano and blow for blow this was the more violent match. The older and lumpier Terry becomes the greater his legacy becomes. Cavernario deserves a ton of credit for being the perfect sounding board for Terry's straight forward brawling approach, but from my point of view this led to a rush of memories of 2008 clips against Navarro set to The Unforgiven and Terry being the master of minimalist lucha brawling. The finish was a poor editorial decision from the bookers, but Terry remains indomitable. He just goes on and on.

I'm talking about what looks like a real fight. Does it mean a brawl or something that looks like actual wrestling? Or something that's less co-operative looking or choreographed or rehearsed?

First up is Frank Stojack vs. Dutch Heffner, which was recommended to me by PWO poster Conker8. This was a nice bout. Heffner had the size advantage but Stojack was a slippery customer and able to escape Heffner's strength holds. There were times when Heffner was like an early incarnation of Dick Murdoch with the way he bumped and sold for the smaller Stojack's punches and there was a classic Three Stooges element to the way he sold getting stuck in the ropes and so forth. There were a couple of holds that didn't really go anyway (restholds, possibly) but aside from that it was an entertaining night out at the wrestling.

I'm kind of half sold on Bockwinkel. There's a lot of Bockwinkel I like -- the series against Hennig, the All Japan match against Robinson, the feud with Lawler and his performance against Jumbo in Hawaii spring to mind -- but there's also been Bockwinkel that I've found boring and predictable so I'm not sold on him being a master performer. I like the potential of him being a master worker so he's a guy I'll continue to chip away at, but I haven't managed to be hooked by his heel work yet and in particular his partnership with Heenan hasn't done much for me. I keep getting this nagging feeling that they're doing stuff I've seen done better elsewhere. Another feeling I have is that while he has swagger and verve as a heel he doesn't have the flamboyance that set the Buddy Rogers and Ric Flairs apart from the pack. I've seen plenty of Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat from every stage of his career, and I've enjoyed plenty of Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat from every stage of his career, but I can't really say that I love Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat. I think where the disconnect ultimately lies with his offense. I don't really have a problem with his over-the-top selling, the family man persona, or any of the other cornball aspects of his persona folks might dredge up; it's his offense that puts me off. I know some people argued during the poll that he was a great offensive worker, and argued for the artistry of his arm drag and what not, but his lack of mat skills, corny strikes and limited arsenal has always bugged me. To his credit he made his act work. People thought his mat work was good, he threw a decent chop and he got a lot of mileage out of simple moves. He also excelled at making fiery comebacks. I'm not denying his talent or begrudging his placement on the list. I just don't love him. Speaking of guys I don't love... The problem with Vader (imo) is that the only time when he's really good is when he's legitimately beating the shit out of people (or practically beating the shit out of people.) When he works a softer style it's cookie-cutter, choreographed big man stuff that takes a huge amount of setting up and payoffs that stick out in the horizon like neon light. I like Vader in principle. I love watching Vader on shitty German handhelds beating the shit out of Otto Wanz. In a parallel universe I can imagine Vader matches where that was all he ever did, but he choreographed his shit in WCW, WWF, New Japan and All Japan. And I don't care how many people like it, he couldn't work shoot style to save his life. I get why people love him so much (in every environment he worked), but to me his biggest strength was pummeling folks in the corner which is why the German rounds system worked better than his telegraphed moonsault spots. Vader coming out of the gate looking for the KO was the big man at his very best.

I dig this Billy Goelz guy from the 50s. Quick on the mat and a terrier once he gets a hold cinched, especially his spinning toe hold. Moreover, he makes everyone he works with look good so suddenly you want to see more from workers you've never heard of like Bill Melby, Jackie Nichols and Juan Hernandez. He was even good at more spectacle driven stuff like a rock solid tag against quality stooges Art Nielson and Reggie Lisowski. There's only 5 Goelz matches on YouTube but each of them is a gem. This will be a catch all thread for any 50s stuff I uncover. With no more old school WoS to watch this 50s stuff is filling my needs nicely. I kind of see a parallel between the two and it's nice to have a new avenue to explore.

This is tougher than it seems. Steve Grey Nemesis -- Johnny Saint (?) Archenemy -- Jim Breaks? Zoltan Boscik (?) El Dandy Nemesis -- Negro Casas (?) Angel Azteca (?) Archenemy -- Satanico (?) El Hijo del Santo Nemesis -- Espanto Jr (?) Blue Demon Jr (?) Archenemy -- Negro Casas (?) Tito Santana Nemesis -- Randy Savage (?) Archenemy -- Greg Valentine (?) Rick Martel (?) Rey Mysterio Jr. Nemesis -- Psicosis (?) Eddie Guerrero (?) Archenemy -- JBL (??) Chigusa Nagayo Nemesis -- Lioness Asuka (?) Mayumi Ozaki (?) Archenemy -- Dump Matsumoto

Another childhood favourite. In fact, he's probably the wrestler most responsible for my fandom. For a long time I had a VHS recording of Royal Rumble '91 that I'd made off the telly, which I later found out was the last pay-per-view to air in New Zealand before they took wrestling off TV. That was the last wrestling I saw up until around 1994 when my mates and I decided to rent some wrestling tapes from the local video store for a bit of a laugh. I remember checking out the covers and thinking "Holy shit, the dude from the Hart Foundation is the champion!" What was meant as a nostalgia kick turned into a habit and it was largely because of Bret. For a few years in the 90s he was pretty much a hero to me. I've told this story many times, but after rediscovering wrestling in 1994 my rekindled interest in it was nearly killed by the annus horribilis that was 1995. The pivotal moment for me in what's been a near lifelong fandom was Bret winning the title at Survivor Series '95. I don't think I've marked for a moment like that in all my life. I mean I waited 24 years to see New Zealand win a Rugby World Cup again and rugby means more to me than wrestling, but still I marked harder for Bret's victory. Everyone knows that Bret is a mark for himself, but at that time I believed in all of it too. I was gutted when Montreal happened the same way people are gutted when their favourite player is traded or leaves in free agency. Then his life began unraveling and the cracks began appearing in the "Bret Hart" persona, but I won't go into that. As a wrestler I think there was a period where he was legitimately great (circa '94-95.) Looking back on his matches now is a bit like re-listening to the music I was into at the time. I can't help but feel that I've moved on and that my tastes have matured, but it's not really fair to underrate the guy because he's old hat. I do think that he's one of the more predictable workers in the top 50. He clearly had his preferred way of working. He overdid injury selling, which I'm not fond of, and his matches were strangely paced at times. The house show/TV match criticisms are legend, and I think in general he could be a bit boring at times. But he was a guy who was committed to his craft, paid attention to detail and was honest (at least that's the way he came across.) I'll always contend that his best stuff was the stuff he least preferred doing (working against other top guys instead of carrying less talented guys & working the heel gimmick), and he's a guy I never need to see again due to the years I spent watching him, but in the end fond memories stop me from ragging on him going this high.

Crap.

Yeah, I've lived in Japan for the past ten years. You can survive in Tokyo or any other major Japanese city without speaking Japanese but you'll find yourself heavily reliant on people who can speak English. Most Japanese people have broken English at best but there plenty of excellent speakers, particularly those who've studied abroad. Generally speaking, Japanese people who've lived abroad have better foreign language skills than foreigners living in Japan. That's out of necessity, I suppose. The same is true of non-English speaking migrants in Japan. Their Japanese is likely better than the average native English speaker. Having said that, I know quite a few native speakers who speak excellent Japanese (some of whom have passed the highest level on the Japanese proficiency test.) I took a look at some YouTube clips of the Funks in Japan and Dory seemed to know a lot of expressions and phrases but didn't appear fluent to me. Terry didn't appear to speak much Japanese. Junior could definitely get by on a day-to-day basis but that's not really fluency.