ohtani's jacket

I agree that this looks bad. I don't think it's helped by the camera work, but at the same time Azteca keeps moving his hands which doesn't help the camera man. It's loosely applied, but I'm also spending an inordinate amount of time staring at it instead of taking the whole frame into account. For me the idea works even if the execution is off, and all I can really say is that the looseness doesn't bother me so much because the timing of the hold is okay. They keep it on for the right length of time (not too long, not too short) and Dandy counters on the right beat. I can overlook the execution. I think I got ahead of you. He's not trying to work the temple. The hold is applied too loosely and he can't keep his hands steady. Might as well go ahead and finish the fall... This is an exceptionally long opening fall for a lucha title match. After Azteca's bump to the outside and the re-set in the middle of the ring that mirrors the opening of the bout, the usually pattern would be for them to run the ropes until one worker scored a pinning maneuver, but it's like they're working overtime here. Some of it works and some of it is a bit hollow. If it were a film and I were the director, I'd trim it a bit, but it's not and therefore we're left with a fall that goes a tad long. They were trying to put over the extreme competitiveness of the workers despite claims of an obvious lack of competitiveness and Azteca not really being on Dandy's level as a worker. Dandy telegraphed the move that Azteca countered for the submission, which I can imagine annoying folks, and after all that back and forth it's a straight counter that ends it, which will annoy you if you hate the hold/counter hold flow, but that was a massive primera caida for experienced lucha viewers. I can understand your dislike of the rhythm of the bout. I think your distaste for the bout clouded your judgement a couple of times and some of the language you use is a bit over-the-top, but I understand your problem with lucha now and don't think it's going to change any time soon. Again, I think you're being a bit OTT with your disbelief that anybody else could like this stuff, but at least we settled that you have a problem with the nuts and bolts of workers not staying in holds for long enough, transitions coming too easily and too fast and not enough body part focus.

This was nowhere near as bad as the example at 6:48. I can understand someone thinking it could have been worked better, but I can't fathom how anyone would find it "appalling." That's a tad melodramatic. It also doesn't allow for the possibility that maybe Dandy the wrestler made a (kaybabe) mistake, or even the possibility that he can't apply the hold properly since his arm is hurting. Quite the jump cut here. You seem to have ignored the escalation taking place, Dandy's increased selling (even focusing on a body part!), the boss work he does in the time between, the pain, the struggle and the competitiveness. You'll notice that they're staying in holds for longer and it's becoming more difficult for them to counter. I don't really get your criticism of the counter here. Dandy turns it over. Naturally it looks co-operative because pro-wrestling is co-operative. But that's a standard counter.

To me that's just a takedown. Dandy is too quickfor him. Instead of falling face first, Azteca is able to keep his balance and push off to the side of Dandy. I'd be lying if I told you I knew that's because it's a better position for him to be in as a worker or because kayfabe wise it's a better position to counter from, but it has the same effect and Azteca is able to break the hold. I don't think he paused for long and I don't think it was a serious attempt at legwork. It was a takedown into a counter. No different from a lock-up really. When I read this, it seemed like Azteca was going to do spinning motions with his arms until finally succumbing to the drop toehold, your outrageously fake gripe seems to be with the side that Azteca fell on. Azteca uses his free leg to push on Dandy's leg and arm and force the separation. I had no problem with this. They cut to a medium close-up of Azteca during the counter, but we saw enough to know that Dandy didn't simply roll over. Again, I don't see how there was anything wrong with Azteca's counter into the waistlock. The arm was there and he took it. They're just jockeying for position at this stage so there's not much need for struggle. It would strike me as odd if either of them were struggling this early in the bout. Azteca is a bit loose. He reminds me of younger Atlantis in the '84 and '85 bouts against Satanico and El Faraon. They'd only been pushing him since '88 and he wasn't anywhere near as smooth as Lizmark, Atlantis, Solar or Santo as far as similar sort of workers go. I liked the front facelock counter, though. He doesn't just let go of it. Dandy leans in on him and takes his leg. Dandy's heavy breathing shows that it's been competitive to that point and even a tad bit frustrating from, Dandy's perspective. It seems to me that Dandy would like to slap on a hold and work Azteca over a bit, but Azteca is a slippery eel and able to counter everything. It would be nice if Azteca was a smoother worker, but not all of his stuff is polished. That's a perfectly acceptable counter. He doesn't just wrap his arm around Dandy's head. He locks both hands and pulls him over. Azteca's not trying to kick him. He's trying to push against Dandy's right leg, which he succeeds in doing when he breaks the hold. Azteca not switching fast enough into his hold is just nitpicking, imo. In theory, Azteca is meant to have control of Dandy's leg, but in reality he lets go of it to move himself into position. It's a minor detail. Twice Dandy tries to take Azteca's arm and twice Azteca fends him off before Dandy grabs the arm and forces Azteca back. I don't think this was a bad counter, but in this case I think you can see Dandy feeding Azteca the transition by giving him the leg. There's almost never a focus on limbwork or body part psychology in lucha. The focus is almost always on holds and counter holds and movement on the mat. To be perfectly honest, unless it were exceptionally well done I would be disappointed to see a focus on limbwork in a lucha title match. The way I see it, two guys have been working a match, exerting a lot of energy and trying to get a score over the other guy. The irony of this is that the transition from the mat to the standing position that Dandy counters from is by far the worst thing in the bout thus far. At around 6:48 they simply stand up.

Sure. You just never hear a bad word about that match so I was curious. Nobody had a bad word for the Steamer-Flair Wrestle War match for ages. It was accepted as an all-time classic, and in some circles as *the* all-time classic. Until they did have a bad word for it. It's possible that someone was critical of Wrestle War before Jewett, but he was the first I can recall knocking it down a peg. I don't think he called it a shitty match, but he didn't think it was an all-time classic, and give it one of hit working overs. And I think was met with resistance. I'm sure you've run into that with movies: universal love/praise for something, yet someone (possibly even you) wonders, "WTF?" I think you've misconstrued me. I'm not saying "how could you not like that that match?!", I'm legitimately curious as to why it fell flat. If you don't feel like explaining then it's no matter. I just feel like dissenting opinions are important in appraising a match.

I only just saw this. I'll check it out tomorrow.

Sure. You just never hear a bad word about that match so I was curious.

There were basically two types of comedy in World of Sport -- the full blown comedy acts and the guys who would incorporate comedy into their matches while still maintaining a veneer of seriousness. You could argue that Kellett belongs to the latter category, but I regard him as a full on comedy act. The most interesting thing about the WoS comedy acts was how Walton struggled to explain their existence in kayfabe terms (e.g. he's a comedian, he's playing to the gallery.) I find that fascinating. The Kellett bout I suggest people sample is the one against Johnny Czeslaw, who belonged to category two above. The best Kellett opponent I've seen is Bobby Barnes. There's a clear undercurrent between a hard arse Yorkshireman and an exotico that doesn't need explaining. I've seen three of their bouts and they're highly entertaining. For what it's worth, WoS didn't start airing on TWC until 2004 and even then nobody outside of British wrestling circles discussed Kellett much.

Why would Takayama do that, though? I'm not familiar with the era at all and I wasn't listening to the commentary when I watched it, so it would have been nice if there had been some visual clues that Takayama was deliberately wrestling Nishimura's style.

Nishimura vs. Takayama is a fascinating bout. I'm not sure it makes a lick of sense for Takayama to try to wrestle Nishimura's style, and when he started throwing him about at the end I couldn't help but wonder why he didn't manhandle him from the start. Then I started wondering if it would have made more sense for Nishimura to have countered some sort of big time Takayama strike to start with and forced him to work from beneath and win the match the hard way. But if you take the match at face value, it was a classy old style build full of neat Nishimura moments. I loved his modified single leg takedown out of the corner that he followed up with a pin point diving knee from the top. I'm not sure if Nishimura is a complete worker, but he does so much cool shit in his bouts.

I agree that Toyota vs. Yoshida starts off as an awesome styles clash, but I'm not so sure it turns into a no-selling spotfest. After the awesome start, Toyota botches a top rope dive to the outside and then takes Yoshida on a shitty tour of the arena. Then when they get back into the ring they struggle to get back into the groove, but it's basically a finishing stretch from there and there's more near falls than no sells. Toyota wins by throwing punches, which isn't something you see from her every day, so I'd dispute the fact it descends into her usual act. She's trying to do her shit at the same time as Yoshida is trying to counter with a match winning submission. It's not the greatest stretch run by any means, but the soft middle is worse than the finish.

Nishimura vs. Tanahashi from 2003 was cool until the shitty throwback to countout finishes of ol', I think there's some credence to MJH's observation that Nishimura's offense is too counter based. He was a great defensive wrestler, but working from a defensive position makes him seem weaker in a kayfabe sense than everyone he faces. Young Tanahashi was solid in this, but took too much of the bout because of the way Nishimura liked to stay back and work his way from a defensive position into a counter attacking opportunity. It's a cool strategy for hardcore wrestling junkies like ourselves, but in a "sport" where perception is everything, Nishimura often comes off like a trusted midcard hand sent out there to make others look good. He did have excellent European uppercuts, though. What a potent weapon those were.

Jerome Kaino made a belly-to-back tackle on Digby Ioane during the 2011 Rugby World Cup semi-final:

Nishimura vs. Suzuki was cool for the time it lasted, but Nishimura gave Suzuki way too much of the bout and a guy with legit MMA experience is always going to make a Dory Funk Jr. clone look dithering. A backslide counter was a lame finish against an MMA dude, but I suppose the good thing about this bout is that it defined Nishimura's comfort zone. Circa 1980 facsimiles with Fujinami are a chance to shine, but a worked shoot was a step beyond.

How come you didn't elaborate on why MS-1/Chicana was disappointing?

The 9/17/00 Toyota/Ito match is heavily clipped, but it's notable for the fact that Toyota still has her 90s look and works exactly like you'd expect Manami Toyota to work. It was immediately noticeable that she shelved the rolling cradle in her '01 and '02 matches with Ito and was working a different style in those bouts. It's hard to tell how good a match is when it's clipped to shreds, but the thing I'll always remember about it is that during the finish they botched a powerbomb off the middle turnbuckle. Toyota's leg bounced off the ropes, which is something I've never seen before. Ito followed it up with a double foot stomp, but Toyota was still moving and Ito didn't hit it anywhere near as cleanly as she usually did. It actually looked like she missed, but that was the move she won the big red belt with. Not the greatest moment in wrestling folklore.

The first Lizmark/Parka match was awesome. The next two were poor.

I liked the 2/24/02 Toyota vs. Ito title match as well. At this point, I'd take Toyota vs. Ito over Toyota vs. Kyoko despite Inoue being a better performer than Ito. They have great chemistry together. It's only two Ito matches, but Toyota's veteran work has been better than expected.

I enjoyed the Nishimura vs. Akiyama match from 2003. G1 matches are worked differently from MUGA bouts. You can't work the mat as much; instead the bout has to be more dynamic. I thought Nishimura did a pretty good job of working that style even if it didn't play to his strengths. He reminds me of Fujiwara at times, but that may be the shaved head and black trunks talking. I did sense similarities between Fujiwara's 90s New Japan appearances and Nishimura's G1 work, however. I also watched Nishimura vs. Kanemoto from the 2004 G1, I believe. I could barely recognise Kanemoto from his 90s days. He seemed to have adopted a quasi-MMA look. Nishimura gave him way more than a heavyweight usually would. He took a constant pounding from the lighter man but pulled through with one of the more spectacular finishes you'll see this year. Come to think of it, most of Nishimura's finishes have been creative thus far.

The thing is, at least on paper, with the emphasis on mat work, the springy mat, and the rolling bumps, lucha should be far more conductive to giving guys the chance to go all-out and deliver an exciting match even on small shows than, say, peak AJ and NOAH. And, as you pointed out earlier, lucha trios guys often have the huge advantage of performing against long-term rivals, giving them an endless bag of tricked out counters and call back spots to sprinkle throughout the match. What could stop them being great every time out? To me, that actually was the case with peak IWRG. I haven't followed them in a few years but during that 2009-20111 period Negro Navarro, Solar, and other maestros, most of which were over 50, were tearing shit up almost every time they showed up. But then I'd look at CMLL and see such talentedand athletic young guys being boxed into working by the numbers bullshit. Anyone care to explain why CMLL/AAA is the be-all-end-all of lucha? If trios matches were the least bit special -- only used in the main event, for example -- there'd be a greater chance of them being classic matches, but because practically every match is a trios bout they only stand out if they're a championship bout, if there's a hot promotional run, an awesome lead in to an apuesta bout, or one of those rare nights where everything clicks. Expecting trios matches to be great is like expecting the baseline for any promotion to be great. Since the baseline for most promotions is average, lucha's really no different to any other style of wrestling where there's the cream of the crop and everything else. It's just that the cream of the crop tends to be singles matches because of how rare they are. The IWRG guys had a nice little run with a core group of guys. The IWRG/maestros style has its flaws, but they did produce a lot of cool stuff. I just think it's tough to sell people on the indy stuff if they've never dabbed in the mainstream. Another frustrating thing about lucha is that the patches of goodness are short lived. The minis will be great for a while and then they're featured less. The Puebla locals will be great until they're no longer booked. IWRG will have a great run and then it loses its TV or the booking heads in a different direction. Maybe there's a short program in CMLL that's great, but it's over and there's no local follow-on from it. That may be my impression from cherry picking the modern stuff, but it always feels so disorganised.

If we had more of Aguyao's 70s work, or even his 80s stuff, I could see him being regarded as a great lucha brawler, but I don't think there's any way that mechanically he can be regarded as an elite worker. I always thought he was cumbersome the majority of the time.

There are different ways to work a trios match. The reason they're generic is because they're repetitive. The vast majority of lucha matches are trios matches and therefore your mileage varies just as it does with every other style. The majority of all wrestling is boring, disappointing and generic. As fans we're looking for the moments of greatness and lucha is no different. Great lucha exists. It may exist in lesser quantity than your favourite style, but it exists. Goodear says lucha gets painted into the same box and then says it should be similar to Lawler pulling the strap down, which as far as I can tell is painting it into a box. The idea that no tecnico has ever given a fired up performance is strange to me just as the argument that Satanico is no different from Wagner or Emilio or Fuerza or Casas. There is a general concept of rudoism in lucha, but those workers were their own men. The idea of there being wrestling cavemen or wizards is odd to me. I don't think we're meant to take the gimmicks that literally. How the hell is a wizard meant to wrestle if that's the case?

I think trios wrestling can be boring a lot of the time and part of that is the predictability of the opening falls. But I think when you get used to lucha, the primera caida is like chapter 1 or the first quarter of a game. It sets the tone for how the rest of the match will go. I agree with Matt that it's probably better when the rudos win the primera and the tecnicos are forced to make a comeback in the next caida, but on the whole I'd say any problems there are have more to do with uninspired work than the structures themselves. Oftentimes when the caidas are the same length, or the segunda is long, the rhythm seems out of step. For new fans, I think the partners flooding the ring and getting pinned or submitted in succession is far more disconcerting because that's hugely choreographed and doesn't make a lot of sense compared to the wrestling we're used to. All I can say about that is you have to accept it for what it is and appreciate the times when it's well done, which it can be if the workers are in sync.

You can usually tell when the finish to the first fall is coming. It they've been on the mat they'll stand up and start working the ropes or whipping each other into the turnbuckle. If they've gone through two rounds of exchanges in a trios match (changing partners the second time) then the fall is neigh, and if's a brawling match then the beatdown reaches a natural crescendo. The second fall is often a short retaliatory fall before the all important third fall, but there are different degrees to how well that's done.

One thing I'll add to Matt's post is that the falls generally overlap. If the tecnicos win they opening fall, they'll generally dominate the opening minutes of the second fall until the rudos make their comeback, and vice versa. Since most matches are 2/3 falls, the wrestlers can lengthen or shorten the falls to create different sorts of rhythms. Generally speaking, the traditional format is a decent length opening fall, a short return fall, and a lengthy back and forward deciding fall, but workers can play around with the form. Occasionally, there will be an opening fall that looks for all money like it's a "rudo fall" but they pull a twist and have the tecnicos win. There's also a huge difference between a brawling trios, a comedy trios and a technical one, as you can probably imagine. Trios matches are almost never great for their own sake. They're almost always appetizers for a future match whether it's a short program or some far off meeting. The best trios have an issue between workers w/ the partners playing a supporting role and working mini subplots that contrast/compliment the main thread. 95% of all trios matches are perfunctory. I would dearly love for there to be a laundry list of great trios matches, but in reality there's been a handful of great ones and a bunch of really good pre-apuesta match build up. If you stacked up the best All Japan six mans along CMLL from say 1990 to 1992, you'd be hard pressed to find too many CMLL matches that compare to the best Jumbo vs. Misawa bouts (if any, really), but you would find a bunch of awesome lead in matches to some pretty great title and wager matches. That's a big point of departure, I think, because trios matches aren't really great for the sake of being great.

The language barrier becomes a factor when you're trying to work out what the hell is going on between Casas and his brother Felino in 1993 or what the Santo turn is all about. It's also a huge factor in trying to work out why two guys are feuding in a style where much of the footage is missing. Admittedly, it may not matter as much if you're watching a match here or there, and some of the biggest lucha fans are fluent in Spanish, but surely a massive chunk of psychology is understanding what's going on. I agree that Japanese and US wrestling share similarities, but that's not much of a surprise. Attempts to introduce pro-wrestling to Japan failed before the McArthur occupation, and therefore it was a naturally adopted piece of "Americana" much like baseball or even jazz. World of Sport is just as exhibition-y as lucha. If anything I'd say there are more similarities between WoS and lucha than WoS and American wrestling. Your gateway into WoS has been strong heel characters, but you can't seem to get your head around the fact that lucha is full of outstanding rudo workers. How are Breaks or McManus any better than Satanico, MS-1, Pirata Morgan, Emilio Charles Jr, Fuerza Guerrera, etc.? How can you argue that lucha is different from WoS when the dressing and undressing of holds in WoS is nothing like any other style of wrestling and the comedy acts routinely break the "third wall", so to speak? I realise you don't like high flyers, but rudos don't fly. Casas doesn't fly. Wagner doesn't fly. Nobody's suggesting you watch lucha where there's an abundance of high flying. They're suggesting you seek out stuff that's similar to the Mocho Cota you enjoyed. You keep making out that guys like Cota are the exception to the rule when it comes to lucha, but they're not. Personally, I find it odd that you've watched so few WoS matches yet have a positive attitude toward it and watched more lucha bouts but take the stance that it's inaccessible. IMO, if lucha has a high entry barrier it's because there's no-one to tell people want to watch. Japanese wrestling has been pimped for so long that people can tell you want you need to watch, but lucha fandom is still in its infancy. It's growing, but it's nothing like jdw laying out the 90s All Japan matches we should watch. Hell, if the DVDVR guys hadn't reviewed some of Alfredo's 1990 tapes, lucha fandom would probably be stuck in the dark ages. People are always defensive of the things they like. There's nothing special about lucha in that regard. When I first came online, people were defensive of the WWF. When I first got into Japanese wrestling, people were defensive of it. They used to call people "elitists" if they preferred Japanese wrestling over American wrestling. Joshi fans had to defend their genre of choice. Spotfest fans were always on the defensive. On and on it goes. If I've been defensive in this thread it's because I don't think your criticisms are fair. I don't think watching a cibernetico and making out like you're constantly flummoxed by the rules is fair when you can easily researching what's going on, and I can't understand how you're unable to recognise repeated aspects of the form in trios matches, title bouts and wager matches when you can easily do so in other forms of wrestling. But at the end of the day nobody's saying you have to like lucha. There's no point making a fuss out of it.