ohtani's jacket

It's one of the matches I use to try to convince people of how great Satanico was. Now I can tell them it's Loss' 4th best match for 1993. I thought the primer was light on trios matches so I added Los Cadetes del Espacio vs. La Ola Lila.

I thought the Santo tag was significantly better than Casas/Panther. I actually liked the Chico Che/Terry hair match better than Casas/Panther.

Blue Panther vs. Negro Casas, hair vs hair, CMLL 3/2/12 This was the match that pretty much everyone expected it would be. I won't go into too much detail about it as I assume everyone's seen it by now, but I'll share a few thoughts: There wasn't any blood and it wasn't a hair match. You're not going to see blood at Arena Mexico, but it's still worth mentioning that it wasn't a hair match. The workers lost their hair but that was about all it had in common with classic lucha. It was a tightly worked affair with a lot of holds applied, and the tercera caida was notable for the lack of big moves and nearfalls that you usually see in a hair match. In other words, there was a hell of a lot more wrestling. The upside of all that wrestling was that the match had a ton of psychology; the downside was that it was short on storytelling. People can always come up with a story if they want to, that's a trait of any match that people like, but I don't think this match had the level of selling that you'd expect from a performer like Negro Casas and the tercera caida wasn't dramatic enough to compare it with a Sangre Chicana hair match or a Pirata Morgan hair match. They made up for that by having a keen contest, but it was a different sort of match. The best parts were similar to their lightning match and involved plenty of invention and skill, but I was disappointed in the tercera caida which I thought dragged and was more suited to a title match than a brawl. The match was geared more towards a technical brawl than biting each other's foreheads and spraying blood everywhere, but it slowed down in the final fall and there wasn't the same level of intensity. It didn't stop me from appreciating what an excellent match it was, but I watched it three times and it never got any better. I did think it was a better match than they could've had in their primes, since their collective age and experience has played such a big part in it being a maestros feud and Panther was never that great at apuestas matches, but at the same time I thought it exposed some of the weaknesses in Panther's work since he unmasked. No matter how hard he tries, he's just not that expressive. To really excel at these matches you have to be charismatic. The deranged old man act and the biting through the boot bit are fine but not enough to carry a match. I liked the Fujiwara armbar in the opening fall, though it seemed to me that they blew the spot later in the match. But again, it wasn't enough. Not to make this a truly great match. I actually liked the Black Terry/Chico Che hair match more than this as I thought Terry outperformed both Casas and Panther. The wrestling might have been better here, but I thought Terry captured what a hair match is all about. Still, Casas/Panther, it's stupid to complain. Sticking these two together has been great and dream match-ups like this are something you rarely ever see in lucha. Therefore, it'll be in the reckoning come Match of the Year time.

Added Mascarita Sagrada vs Espectrito I and Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis to flesh out AAA a bit more. The whole thing probably needs an edit and rethink, but maybe some other people can chime in.

I need to include a couple more AAA matches, but my favourite match from that era is the Satanico/Morgan hair match and I don't think it's representative of that era. The rest of the primer wasn't easy. I tried to include matches which I thought were significant for one reason or another. Negro Navarro vs. El Dandy, IWRG 11/18/01 El Hijo Del Santo vs. Perro Aguayo Jr, CMLL 8/13/04 Blue Panther/Shu El Guerrero vs. Black Terry/Villano III, 2004 Mistico vs. El Averno, CMLL 1/30/05 El Texano, Negro Navarro & El Signo vs. Super Astro, Ultraman & Solar, IWRG, 02/10/05 Mistico vs. Ultimo Guerrero, CMLL 2/25/05 Negro Navarro/Villano 4/Villano 5 vs. Dos Caras Jr./Heavy Metal/Solar 1, AULL 11/2/06 Black Terry/Negro Navarro vs. Solar/Mano Negra, Lucha Libre VIP 3/10/07 Mistico vs. Dr. Wagner, 07/27/07 Blue Panther vs. Villano V, 09/19/08 Black Terry/Cerebro Negro/ Dr. Cerebro vs. Negro Navarro/Trauma I/Trauma II, IWRG 4/23/09 Zatura vs. Trauma II, 6/18/09 Black Terry, Dr. Cerebro y Chico Che vs. Gringo Loco, El Hijo del Diablo y Avisman, 3/14/10 Virus vs. Guerrero Maya Jr, CMLL 6/7/11 Negro Casas vs. Blue Panther, 3/2/12

He's talking about that '93 tag, which is awful.

I would break it down into eras: The early to mid-80s where very little footage exists but the matches we do have suggest Mexico was one of the best territories of the 80s. The 1989-92 CMLL television run that is the first set of largely complete TV we have and features many of the great workers in their primes. AAA's hot run from '93-95, which is the equivalent of when WCW outdrew the WWF, I guess. CMLL's 1997 run, which is arguably the greatest year of lucha we have on tape and possibly the most stacked roster. Modern CMLL from 2001 onwards (just to be fair) and the maestro period of 2000 onwards where the older workers began providing an alternative to the modern style. This would be my primer: Ray Mendoza vs. Tatsumi Fujinami, El Toreo, 8/13/78 Dos Caras vs. Dr. Wagner, All Japan, 3/2/80 MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana, 9/23/83 Los Cadetes del Espacio vs. La Ola Lila, UWA 2/84 Gran Cochisse vs. Satanico, 9/14/84 Sangre Chicana vs. Perro Aguayo, 2/28/86 Espanto Jr. vs. El Hijo Del Santo, 8/31/86 El Satanico/El Dandy/Emilio Charles Jr. vs. Atlantis/Javier Cruz/Angel Azteca, 5/13/90 Angel Azteca vs. El Dandy, 6/1/90 Atlantis vs Blue Panther, 8/9/91 Los Infernales (MS-1, Satanico & Pirata Morgan) vs. Los Brazos, 11/22/91 Trio Fantasia v. Thundercats, (Masks vs. Masks), 12/8/91 Espanto Jr. vs. El Hijo Del Santo, 5/14/92 El Dandy vs Negro Casas, 7/3/92 Love Machine, Eddy Guerrero & Hijo Del Santo vs. Fuerza Guerrera, Fishman & Blue Panther, AAA - 8/1/93 Mascarita Sagrada vs Espectrito, AAA 3/12/94 El Hijo Del Santo/Octagon/Rey Misterio Jr./La Parka vs. Blue Panther/Fuerza Guerrera/Pentagon/Psicosis, AAA Triplemania III-B, 6/18/95 Rey Misterio Jr. vs Psicosis, AAA 9/22/95 Cicloncito Ramirez vs Damiancito El Guerrero, 1/7/97 Atlantis/Brazo De Oro/El Dandy/Mascara Magica/La Fiera/Negro Casas/Shocker/Ultimo Dragon vs Black Warrior/Dr. Wagner Jr./El Hijo Del Santo/Felino/Kevin Quinn/Satanico/Scorpio Jr./Silver King, 4/18/97 El Hijo Del Santo vs. Negro Casas, 9/19/97 Bracito De Oro/Cicloncito Ramirez/Mascarita Magica vs. Damiancito El Guerrero/El Fierito/Pierrothito, 10/3/97 Blue Panther vs. Atlantis, La Copa Victoria final, CMLL 12/5/97 Atlantis vs. Villano III, 3/17/00 I'm a bit tired and the 00s on is something I need to think about a bit more.

Yeah, I agree with this 100%. There was an expectation that the WWF could make him a star, though, as they'd done with Austin and Foley.

I was a fan of Jericho's schtick in 1998 and willed him to have success in the early part of his WWF career, but his jump ended up being a failure on so many levels that I soon lost interest. His early work is awful, especially his runs in CMLL. To me he always had problems with offence. It wouldn't surprise me if his cruiserweight stuff was his best work or possibly when he finally learnt to work WWF style. But yeah, not a fan.

If it were a thread for people who are trying to get into lucha I'd be all for it, but that's a very different set of match recommendations than lucha for people who don't like it.

I only have strong memories of the 5th Anniversary show. I remember like the Cutie Suzuki/Scorpion and Devil Masami/Yamazaki matches. Both matches are on youtube (in fact, I think the entire show is on youtube.) Perhaps FLIK or someone can watch it. The only JWP match I've seen that hit four stars from '86-92 was the Devil Masami/Kandori brawl from '87, so if you include any JWP it's not for the match quality but a look at what another women's promotion was doing. Some of the factions are interesting.

I watched every JWP commercial tape from 1990 and 91 that was available from Champion.

The one panel I saw where everyone seemed to get along was JR, Foley, Patterson, Hayes and Taz.

God, Flair is a wanker in that Historical Moments episode.

Angel Blanco Jr./El Hijo del Solitario vs. El Hijo Del Santo/Villano IV, TXT 2/25/12 This was an excellent match and a vintage Santo brawl. I guess the surprising thing about that is that Santo didn't feature prominently. With the focus squarely on El Hijo del Solitario and Villano IV and an excellent performance from Angel Blanco Jr, Santo was left to do his bits. Santo being Santo it was all very crowd pleasing. The most outstanding thing about the match was the amount of blood. All four guys bled buckets and by the end of the match both Santo and Blanco's masked were stained red. It was an authentic lucha brawl, perhaps the most authentic we've seen in a while. You could've taken any number of still shots, printed them in grainy black and white and imagined you were reading an old-school lucha libre magazine. But it also had a clever structure. What seemed like it would be an easy first up fall for the technicos was cut off and turned into a long beatdown. El Hijo del Solitario and Angel Blanco Jr, neither of whom is a worker of note, spent a long period working the technicos over, and you know it's not easy to make ripping a guy's mask open interesting. They actually spent longer working a cut than a rudo typically would in one of these matches and the fact that they could keep it from being dull was commendable. I watched the match twice and the second time I was tracking Angel Blanco Jr during the rudo control segment and I really felt that he contributed some excellent spots, including my favourite spot where both he and El Hijo del Solitario began punching Villano IV simultaneously on the mat. El Hijo del Solitario is a tall, sort of thinnish worker, who reminds me of how Cien Caras used to move in the 80s. His stuff doesn't look that good and he has these sort of swiping punches that almost look like open handed strikes (only his fist is closed), but either he was hitting Villano for real or Villano was selling them like a champ because it was all pretty effective. After so much abuse, the technicos' comeback was super hot. The Villano boys know how to brawl and there was plenty of swinging chair shots and sweet payback. A lot of people moan about lucha structure, and in truth the technicos probably took over too easily in this fall, but it's the heat for the comeback that really matters. The third fall is always a back and forth slugfest, but the point of the second caida is to give the technicos momentum heading into the final fall and show that they can deliver later on in the match. That momentum came in the form of Santo's famous plancha to the outside, which is one of the most perfect spots in all of wrestling and still breathtaking after all this years. The twist here, however, was that the technicos couldn't take the fall and so that momentum eventually whittled away. The rudos winning in straight falls was a smart piece of booking, I thought. The finish was great and the post-match wet everyone's appetite for the mask match at the end of this month. The rudos definitely came of this looking stronger than anyone could have possibly imagined. It also showed, from a structural point of view, that those easy falls that people complain about in lucha are only small windows of opportunity much the same as any other sport. You don't see that type of psychology in lucha often, but it exists. I will say this, though: it didn't grab me as the Match of the Year. The latest in a run of excellent matches coming out of Mexico, but not the Match of the Year. We'll have to wait and see about that.

The Bass/Tito MSG bout is one of Tito's best.

The point is that some people don't know what to make of it and give up because it's so different they can't understand it. As a result, they miss out on some good stuff. I have always loved singles matches, but the trios matches were really hard for me to get into at first. If they're not interested in those things then too bad for them. There's no rule that says you have to like lucha libre so why dumb it down? If you don't enjoy a match like Trio Fantasia vs. Thundercats then you're not a lucha fan and probably never will be. I don't need some Puro fanboy coming along and pointing out that it's not like puroresu. Why would anyone want it to be like puroresu? I mean pretty much everything people criticise lucha for are things I'm actively looking for in a match. I don't mind explaining lucha to people who have a genuine interest in it, but I'm not gonna waste my time on people who think other styles are inherently superior.

Kudo is a neat story the way she went from a kindergarten worker to one of the bigger draws in women's wrestling, but she wasn't any better than the midcard talent AJW had in the 70s, 80s and 90s. If she'd wound up in LLPW no one would talk about her.

Man, I dare you to watch every available piece of Otto Wanz footage on the Internet.

When I first got into lucha, I used to buy tapes and take them over to my friend's house and we'd mark out over all the stuff that different about lucha. If you're going to get into lucha you need to embrace all that stuff and love it. I don't agree with showing people matches that are like a Southern style tag or a classic American brawl or anything like that. I would recommend pure lucha all the way.

That Owen/Bret match has some great Owen stalling but as far as the actual wrestling goes it should not be on the set whatsoever.

I don't remember liking those Hokuto/Yamada or Aja/Kudo matches at all. My suggestions: Chigusa Nagayo vs. Leilani Kai, 8/21/86 and 4/27/87 Yukari Omori vs. Lioness Asuka, 4/15/87 Aja Kong/Bison Kimura vs. Bull Nakano/Grizzly Iwamoto, 8/19/90 Bull Nakano vs. Shinobu Kandori, chain match, 7/14/94 Aja Kong vs. Meiko Satomura, 9/5/99 Mariko Yoshida vs. Hiromi Yagi, 2/18/99 Mariko Yoshida vs. Yumi Fukawa, 5/4/99 Megumi Fujii vs. Mariko Yoshida, 5/24/03

That's fantastic.

The one time I went to a Joshi show the go-go-go style was a million times more fun to watch than the slower, storytelling matches. Those matches don't really resonate when you can't see what they're doing.

I don't agree. How can being more informed be worse for making a list? How many of the guys who voted for say, Dory Jr., in 2006 had actually watched a load of Dory matches? Seems to me that now everyone has greater exposure to a greater number of workers. Everyone is in a better position to make a real call. If I were to make a list today I would put all my new discoveries ahead of the consensus picks because the consensus picks are boring as shit to me. For most of the workers in the top 25 I never want to see another one of their matches in my life. There's just no way to be impartial about it. It's better left as a time capsule of that period of fandom.