ohtani's jacket

I remember liking that Kendo Nagasaki/Wayne Bridges match and Bridges is one of the WoS guys I dislike the most along with Mal Sanders and John fucking Naylor. I take it you haven't watched the Nagasaki/Myers match or any of the Screen Sport stuff?

Punk/Henry was a match of the week type match. What is it about the match specifically that makes you think it was better than any match wrestled in the US in 1995? Was it really better than say Bret vs. Jean Pierre Lafitte or that Vader tag?

Watched Punk/Henry and don't see how it was a MOTYC. It was okay as far as little guy tries to chop down a pine tree goes, but I didn't buy the finish whatsoever and the whole thing was overshadowed by the post-match crap. If they were going to do a countout finish, Henry should've gone out over the rope too. But regardless, why would you rate a match that was basically two thirds of a match without any finishing stretch? The match was pretty much aborted so they could fit the Jericho crap in the quarter hour. And what a dumb angle that is. Can't they do something better with Punk than this straight edge shit? I mean, I kind of admire the guy for cementing himself as a WWE performer as it seems like he did it against the odds, but who the fuck wants to watch angles about alcoholism or drug addiction or anything like that?

El Hijo del Santo vs. El Hijo del Solitario vs. Angel Blanco Jr., Triangular de la Muerte, 3/31/12 There are about three or four handhelds of this available on youtube. The handheld with the best angle is broken down into half a dozen parts. It's also the most complete, from entrances to post match unmasking and celebrations. A couple of the other versions are clipped. This was fairly typical for a Triangular de la Muerte match. As soon as a three-way match was announced I had an inkling that it would be along these lines rather than a classic. The early falls are perfunctory, but there's always the hope that the mascara contra mascara section will be something special. In this case it was the standard Santo singles match. After such a bloody and violent feud, I was disappointed by the lack of blood. The heat, on the other hand, was fantastic and something which won't be captured in the televised version. If you ever want to hear Santo draw huge heat for his signature spots then this is the match for you. Blanco did the long lineage of unmasking rudos proud by kicking the bottom rope a couple of times and attacking Santo after he was given Blanco's mask and the post-match celebration was enjoyable, but nothing about this was great. I thought it would've been far cooler to do Santo and Villano vs. Solitario and Blanco Jr. masks vs. masks match.

Added -- Chic Cullen vs. Rocky Moran (5/2/84) One guy who was on TV a lot in the 80s was Chic Cullen. He was an average looking Scottish bloke with a bad hair cut who was a fairly decent worker that they put some stock in. The more I watch of him, the more I'm starting to like him or at least acknowledge him as a mainstay. This was an outstanding title match for Cullen's British Heavy-Middleweight belt. Moran was from the same stable of workers as Finlay and a cheat basically. Usually, the heels shelf that type of work in a title match in similiar fashion to lucha, but not this time. Moran was being badly outwrestled at the beginning of this match (in fact, at first I couldn't figure out why Cullen was getting all the offense) until he finally began a barrage of illegal moves. There was an awesome spot where Moran pleaded with the ref not to give him a public warning and as the ref gave it went straight back to attacking Cullen. Cullen sold all this big time and the crowd was heavily into it. Alan Kilby was sitting at ringside waiting to see who he would challenge for the title and opening rooting for Cullen. Great match.

I will check it out if I have time, but I would want to know more about Okada and Naito and whether they have any sort of charisma because that type of psychology bores the crap out of me in Japanese wrestling.

Looking at Dylan's MOTY list, Panther/Casas and Terry/Che are matches I expect to follow the conventions of lucha libre hair matches, the Santo stuff I expect to follow the conventions of lucha libre brawling, the Casas/Sombra match I expect to follow the conventions of lucha libre title matches, the Finlay/Tajiri match I expect to follow the conventions of Japanese wrestling, and the Henry/Punk match I haven't seen yet but would expect to follow the conventions of the modern, present day WWE style. If I were to rank them it would simply be based on which match I liked more. Naturally, there are things I value in all wrestling but those things would be present in each individual match otherwise they wouldn't be on my list. I don't think I would rate the Santo tag above the Casas/Panther match simply because the selling was better in the Santo tag, for instance. It would be because the Santo tag was a proper lucha brawl whereas the Casas/Panther match was a maestro match when it was supposed to be a hair match. I suppose you could argue that wrestling the right type of match for the right situation is a value that can be applied universally, but I was just wondering how fixed your viewpoint is. You've already implied that you're not an absolutist so I guess that answers that.

Aren't you expecting a bit too much from wrestling? How many examples were there on each yearbook of wrestling reaching the standard you've set?

Most people go into a match cold because they're watching something they're not familiar with or don't follow on a regular basis. Casas vs. Panther, for example, has been built to since last year (possibly even the year before.) I didn't watch all of the set-up but the guys who did were really high on that match. Speaking for myself, the Punk/Henry match would be easy to watch in isolation because I at least know those workers but with the New Japan match I'd be lost and I doubt I'd give it a fair shot.

El Hijo del Santo & Villano IV vs. El Hijo del Solitario & Angel Blanco Jr., Todo X El Todo La Venganza, 3/23/12 This was nowhere near as good as their first match, but as the middle part in the feud it was still pretty good. The February tag defied a lot of lucha libre conventions, whereas this was more along the lines of a traditional pre-apuestas match. The rudos milled about drawing heat while the technicos bled, then they switched roles. The rudos didn't care so much about winning this time round and just wanted to rub salt into the wound. The technicos gained a measure of revenge by winning the match, but were denied a total victory and will have to sit and stew for longer. The difference between the two matches is that this one didn't go the distance. The third fall was short and as with most matches pre-apuestas they held back on the big stuff. That said, there was still plenty of cool shit. I really liked Santo in this match. I thought he took a tremendous back against the ropes beating and bleed so much his mask looked burgundy. The highlight of the match was the set-up for his tope, which looked like it was cut and paste from 1986. There aren't too many people who do a better tope than Santo, but this one was particularly nasty. Blanco took an awesome backflip over the ring barrier and looked like he'd been knocked into next week. He looked like the off-stump after a West Indian fast delivery for those of you who understand cricket. Other highlights included Solitario playing Fuerza-like rudo tricks with a kid and folks shielding themselves from Villano's blood which splattered with each blow. Like I said, the rudos won't have minded losing this match, and for that reason this was a bit of a slow burner to build more heat for the mask match, but it was another chapter in what just might be the feud of the year and well recommended.

I just watched the Lesnar segment on youtube and I have two questions: 1) Why did they cut to a behind the shoulder shot of the Titantron before Lesnar came out? 2) Why did Cena let Brock pose and hit the F5 on him? Yeah, it's wrestling, blah, blah... c'mon, the set-up was a handshake.

Updated my list with some of my recent picks: Steve Grey vs. Keith Haward (2/5/85) Jon Cortez vs. Keith Haward (1/13/87) Keith Haward vs. Chic Cullen (3/5/84) I really like Keith Haward. He had no personality whatsoever but he was a wrestling machine. The Cortez bout is the least problematic as the booking holds back the other two matches, but I really liked how Grey was forced to bring the physical side of his game to a catchweight contest with Haward and the Cullen bout was really solid wrestling with a really shitty finish. And one of Flik's picks, which I wrote about at Wrestling KO: Abe Ginsberg vs. Pete Curry (10/23/74) This ruled. It was one of Flik's choices over at PWO for the best WoS bouts. And a good thing he mentioned it too as I would've never watched it on name value alone. Ginsberg seemed like an interesting character. He wore a black leather helmet to the ring and Walton commented about how he often had a go at Kent through the ropes. He was all business here, however. He went up a class to take on a heavyweight in Curry and for a heavyweight match this was peppered with awesome looking holds, stiff moves and smash mouth wrestling. Sadly, as with a couple of other great looking workers this is the only Ginsberg match on tape. Gutted. Speaking of Wrestling KO, here is my monstrous European wrestling thread -- http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/i...c=2555&st=0

I guess if Vince was on the bones of his ass he'd have to take risks. It's kind of funny when you look at the Wrestlemania XIV card considering how much of a game changer it seemed at the time, but there have been some unbelievably shitty Wrestlemanias during boom periods. In fact, Wrestlemania is like the Oscars: you know it's going to be crap, but you watch it anyway because you want to see who wins. Somewhere along the way when they started building up the WWE brand, Wrestlemania became the biggest stage of them all where all these legendary matches take place and now there's an expectation that every year you're going to see something showstopping. I mean there was always the hope that maybe something great would happen at Wrestlemania, but now they actively try to make each and every Wrestlemania memorable. So I guess the question is would Sheamus v. Undertaker deliver on that even if it was a great match? I read the thread over at DVDVR and this is nothing against Brian Fowler, but would he think Sheamus v. Undertaker was some of the greatest storytelling in the history of the business? Because ultimately that's what people want from Wrestlemania when they plonk down their money. It seems like a bit of a juggling match to me. You could probably argue that it's a double mainevent one match should be used to elevate a new guy, but this whole Undertaker has a great match at Wrestlemania thing has taken on a life of its own in the past few years. I guess they're just milking it dry.

I guess they have no confidence in them drawing. After all, isn't there a tremendous amount of casual fans that make up the Wrestlemania buyrate? It does pose the question of what they're going to do when their previous stars are too old to keep coming back.

The issue is that WM is mostly a nostalgia show now. Has been for years. Save for Punk vs Jericho, the entire WM card was built around Taker, Michaels, HHH and Rock. The rest was an afterthought. Since when did Wrestlemania undercards not suck?

Isn't the basic problem that the only match-ups they can save for Wrestlemania and not run on TV or their 11 other PPVs are ones involving returning superstars?

lol, that was funny.

I was trying to remember if I'd ever seen anyone bleed hardway in WoS. Veidor/Davies is definitely a match that I think Loss would enjoy.

That was a hell of a post, Herodes.

Like Big Daddy or Giant Haystacks or Kendo Nagasaki? I think there's a big difference between a bit of pizzazz and character / charisma and, for example, Jimmy Hart vs. JYD in a waterslide race or Roddy Piper playing trick or treat on Halloween night. Those were some of the more colourful characters, but the presentation was still largely realistic and as a legit sport. Well, ultimately they were matches filmed at halls around the country, but c'mon Big Daddy was not pure sport. Even huge stars like McManus, Pallo and Kellet who were great workers were entertainers first and foremost. There was a lot of technical wrestling, but I think the pure sport aspect gets overplayed because of how the matches were presented on TWC. Walton tried to sell something like Catweazle as seriously as he could, but the audience weren't under any illusion that it was anything other than comedy.

I think RINGS was presented like Pancrase. WoS was out and out pro-wrestling to me. The pure sport aspect I think is overstated. UWF-i was worked like pro-wrestling so I can understand why that might appeal to you. I can't remember ever seeing blood on WoS. I don't think it was allowed on TV. I don't know about building from match to match, but most of the long term rivalries revolved around title belts. I don't think there were a lack of feuds. There were plenty of reoccuring match-ups along with short term programs. The problem is that we don't have the complete picture in regards to footage. This tended to happen in the heavyweight ranks where the belt seledom changed hands. In the lighter classes the belts changed hands frequently. I can't think of any examples off hand as I've watched most out of it out of context and in nonsequential order. The lightweights certainly chased each other in terms of the belt. There were a lot of return matches. Revenge may have been a motivation in these bouts but not outwardly so because of the gentlemanly pretences. The heels tended to look for revenge more than the faces. If a heel lost, they'd often offer up a wager in order to get a return bout and things like that. I suppose there was an element of revenge in return title matches. Many of the matches existed in their own little vacuum because guys were making their first television appearance for a number of months, but in terms of the feuds Walton would always refer back to their previous match-ups. The catchweight bouts I like so much take place in their own little vacuum.

Like Big Daddy or Giant Haystacks or Kendo Nagasaki?

There were a lot of angles and gimmickry on top involving Big Daddy that nobody watches because Big Daddy sucks. There was also a bunch of gimmickry with Kendo Nagasaki and workers of his ilk. The heavyweights would occasionally call each other out as well. I've seen Tony St. Clair come to the ring in street clothes on more than one occasion, as well as angles involving Bomber Pat Roach and others. There was the occasional gimmick match too such as the handicap matches or the money per round or fall bouts. There was also the arm wrestling shtick that Myers used to do, and of course tag matches were British wrestling's version of a cage match or some other type of rare stipulation bout. Title matches were also important and built to within the course of a year. In a sense, I agree with MJH that because TWC showed it in inconsequential order you don't get a sense of what was happening in any given year. On the other hand, it wasn't as angle driven as All Star Wrestling and for the most part it was about having a favourite wrestler who you looked forward to seeing on TV.

What are some examples of other styles or matches you find emotional? There are a few things you should bear in mind if you ever decide to delve into World of Sport. Firstly, you need to be mindful of the weight classes as the lightweight, welterweight, middleweight and heavyweight bouts are all wrestled differently from one another. Generally speaking, the catchweight bouts are the most exciting though the lightweight bouts provide the most action. Secondly, the matches aren't supposed to be brawls. They're supposed to be clean, sportsman-like bouts. Of course when you put a heel and a face together it often breaks down, but there are A LOT of face vs. face matches compared with other territories. There were also certain types of workers who were prone to having their face vs. face match-ups turn heated generally because of how stiff they worked. Occasionally, they'd have a heel run that was similar to US wrestling. Mighty John Quinn and the Caribbean Sunshine Boys were good examples of this. And of course there were the perennial heels like McManus, Breaks and Cooper, the gimmick workers like Catweazle, Kung Fu and Kendo Nagasaki, the tough as nails comedy workers like Kellett and Cszelaw, and the super heavyweights on top. Once you figure out which type of weight class you prefer and what type of matches you like it's easier to wade your way through matchlists. As I said, the lightweight bouts and catchweight contests are the easiest to get into at first as well as the heel shtick. The heavyweights take a lot of getting used to as they're the "blue-eyes" babyface workers and can be pretty bland. Steve Viedor is a guy who it took me forever to get into whose stuff I really dig now. I recommend you start with the Tony St. Clair stuff I've recommended as his 70s matches got a ton of heat. He wasn't the greatest worker but a strong foil for the best heels of the day. As for the rounds system, the best way to think about it is that they have to get two falls either from a pinfall or submission and that they're always battling against a time limit. I don't agree with people who've said there are no nearfalls. If you watch a match where both guys are desparately trying to win in the final rounds there will be plenty of nearfalls. This is usually the case with the lightweights. A lot of matches peter out into draws or are slow, technical matches but you can weed those out once you're familiar with the workers.

I had a similar experience watching old episodes of New Zealand's On The Mat and I assure you WoS was light years ahead in terms of quality. I also think living in Japan has dampened my enthusiasm for Japanese wrestling as the years go by. But do you feel the same about Powell and Pressburger? Ealing Comedies? Are You Being Served? Only Fools and Horses? EastEnders?? Emmerdale Farm??? Coro Street??? What aspects would you describe as overly British? The crowds? Walton going on about everyone's day job? Jim Breaks' accent? It was such a beautiful style why would you want to change it? All Star Wrestling tried to go the WWF route and apparently had some post-TV success booking angles. The wrestling in both companies was absolutely shit from about '86 onwards. Once they started sharing the ITV time slot and the match lengths were cut back it became brutal. I don't think there were enough surviving masters for that to be effective. You can piece together matches from the same taping but that's about it. Which matches and workers do you like?