ohtani's jacket

I don't see how ROH can't run a spot show in Tokyo... They have TV, they're covered in whatever mags are left and they have NOAH's backing. It shouldn't be that difficult.

Eh, that might be true, but Tateno's weight often ballooned in Japan too.

That Tully/Windham match was really good as far as I remember. Funny how fans today would be itching to discover a 27 minute Tully/Windham match. So much for the UWF closing shop or Dump continuing wrestling... Dump became a comedian, TV talent and actress. Omori was her comedian partner for a while. Asuka tried to lure her out of retirement, but she started a family instead. The Matsunagas didn't cope very well with this difficult period Dave is talking about & 1989 saw a number of girls run away from the dojo due to bullying.

I really enjoyed all of the Flair/Luger matches from Starrcade '88 through to the Clash that Loss wrote about, with the exception of Starrcade '89. They're tremendously entertaining. Flair did a great job of working the matches around the way Luger was being pushed, even if he had no intention of dropping the belt to him, and Luger looked great, even if people say he was difficult to work with. The Clash match is really good, and Loss is right about the post-match beatdown, which was so good that the Hansen/Luger matches were incredibly disappointing to witness. After this, Flair kinda got exposed in the Doom/Horsemen tag at Halloween Havoc, but the next Clash against Butch Reed was interesting. The match falls apart when Flair resorts to formula stuff, but he could be a semi-decent brawler at times. The grudge match against Pillman in '91 is a good example.

I don't have a problem with people acknowledging it, I have a problem with the leap from this business is fucked to Michael PS Hayes has a great left or whatever... Others don't, tomk explained about Mid-South. That's fine, I'm not suggesting we all develop guilt complexes. What I'd like to know is how people can separate their feelings about the business from their fandom, if indeed they do... I mean if you're resigned to the fact that the business is fucked, but still enjoy watching matches, then to some extent you're switching off whether you're outspoken about the business or not.

Of course I can be inconsistent and flat out wrong about things. If you want my honest opinion, I don't think I could watch wrestling anymore if I felt as strongly about things as other people do, but I keep watching because I've always watched it and don't want to stop, except for Benoit matches which I avoid. (Something I'm not entirely comfortable about.) I think people can negotiate their way through a pro-wrestling career, but most don't. Really I have no justification to keep watching and have the most respect for people who've stopped. Tnen again, I couldn't enjoy anything if I worried about all the shit that goes along with it.

OK, fair enough.

It's not about whether you can/should acknowledge that musicians have fucked-up lifestyles and sometimes die from it... It's about how you acknowledge it... Saying there should be no music anymore, while still listening to your favourite albums, is really no different from apologists. The whole thing is a touchy subject & people are gonna react to it in different ways... including wishing it would go away or being worried that it will threaten the business... Some people square all the blame on the business, others think it's inherently fucked to begin with. Whatever position you take, "I can enjoy it and criticise it" is not a defensible line against taking shit about A and marking out about B, and moreover, it's not a defence for talking shit about people who can't bring themselves to criticise the business. The assumption is that those people are marks, but that bingo sheet had relevant aspects to any dialogue about this issue, particularly for people who can't accept that all wrestlers have psychological problems or that Benoit's brain is why he killed himself and his family.

It comes across like people are picking and choosing their spots to criticise, based on whether they like the wrestling product or not. I'm sure that's not true, but that's how it comes across. I know people here have no illusions about workers & promotions they like, but time and time again people fall back into old habits of pimping workers and matches they like with no regard to their concerns about the business or the participants' welfare... It's confusing. For example, if Bob Roop becomes a pimped worker after the Mid-South, is he a fuck-up for being in the business, a great worker or a fuck-up and a great worker?

I don't think it's wrong to be non-apologetic, so long as people don't end up spinning as much BS as apologists. Personally I don't think the issue is as clear cut as people make out and yes I have a hard time understanding how people have squared that concept.

My comment wasn't about the Mid-South project specifically, it's about people's attitudes. I think it's OK to say "I don't like the business, but I like wrestling", the point is whether you can separate the two. Where's the consistency in criticisng ROH and praising Mid-South? They both come from the same sleazy business. If there's no contradiction then are we gonna get a criticism of Mid-South? (I hope not, but that's the way it comes across to me -- this stuff is ok, this stuff is the object of scorn.) While we were having the porn vs. wrestling debate, it seemed to me that people who watch porn are a lot more honest about it, just like nobody who has a cigarette is kidding themselves. I mean the only people who watch porn and think, "Well I enjoyed that but something has to be done about it" are anit-porn lobbiysts. I'm not saying people have to learn to live with it or stop watching, or that they shouldn't care, they just need to be consistent... Otherwise, for every remark on that Bingo sheet, there's a counter remark for non-apologists.

I think the Mid-South project is great, but the whole "you can still like something and criticise it" thing is BS. Not in the sense that people should ignore the sleazy/shitty/fatal aspects of the business, but in their attitude towards it.

Cute. How about Mid-South Project Apologist B-I-N-G-O?

As far as I recall, my top 10 was: 1. Jaguar Yokota 2. El Dandy 3. The Destroyer 4. MS-1 5. Chigusa Nagayo 6. Ric Flair 7. Akira Hokuto 8. Blue Panther 9. Volk Han 10. Jumbo Tsuruta

I dunno what people expect from a guy who's been in the business as long as Ross. Listen to him salivate over Luger or Doom and the Steiners. The guy's always been a mark for "upper bodies" and football careers, until those bodies went to the opposition... then there was no money in body building.

I was wondering if the Kitano in last week's issue meant Takeshi Kitano.

First you've gotta care that the opinion's wrong... I don't even know what fast food my friends like let alone thinking they're full of shit... If someone said Ozu, Eric B and Rakim or Yoshiaki Fujiwara suck, then I'd care. Otherwise they can like or dislike whatever they please.