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Everything posted by ohtani's jacket
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Kandori worked a lot of brawls, which played off her heat with Sato and others, but she was clearly a shoot style worker doing brawls even if "shoot style" in this case amounted to judo elements. As far as I remember when she worked the Yokota types she was presented as a different kind of match-up for them. I can't remember her working too many straight shooter vs. shooter type matches, but styles make fights. That's why the Hokuto match is great and the Toyota match. The thing with Kandori is that her early work has been largely unwatched and her LLPW work has been largely unwatched, except for a few hardcores like Jetlag and earlier completists like PUNQ. Most people only know her from her interpromotional work. She's a great subject to explore for a list like this. If Matt watches the same footage that Jetlag has, I'm sure he'll pick up on all sorts of details. People shouldn't sleep on Ozaki or Kansai, either.
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KinchStalker's Puroresu History Thread Leftover Posts
ohtani's jacket replied to MoS's topic in Pro Wrestling
He was more than just a booker. He was a trainer and the examiner for the dojo's entrance test. While he was the booker, he was instrumental in creating a freer environment for the younger wrestlers where they were allowed to do big moves in their matches. He made a lot of reforms to the undercard of All Japan and improved the training methods for rookies. He broke Misawa and Koshinaka into the business and was highly respected by both. I believe he was also an interpreter for the foreigners. According to The Great Kabuki he now drives a truck in the States. -
I will say that I think it's important to sample all sorts of Joshi. Joshi is one of those stupid terms we use to encapsulate an entire group of sub genres, a bit like puroresu or lucha. That's why the early 90s interpromotional cards were such great gateway shows because they presented you with so many different workers/match types.
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Kandori wasn't that unique. Once UWF got big, Chigusa, Lioness and Omori started incorporating a lot of shoot style influence into their work which beget the likes of Hotta and Yamada. Kandori was different in that she came from a legitimate background, but even before the UWF got big workers like Sato and Yokota were working more serious wrestling styles. Watching Kandori matches would expose you to pre-split JWP, which not a lot of people have seen. Her post inter-promotional era stuff would also expose you to a lot of different workers. She had a couple of famous matches with Bull, so you could even knock Nakano off your list. It's a shame that All Japan didn't go through with the late 80s Kandori vs. Chigusa dream match.
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I don't think you can watch 1990 All Japan without going into 1991, presuming you like the Misawa vs. Jumbo feud as much as others do. Early Taue is a thing as well. I personally love that Jumbo/Taue tag team. I haven't checked in on your '89 AJPW feud in a while, but maybe you'll have softened on a few of the pillars by the time you watch their later stuff. I go back and forth on it myself. I get sick of it, don't watch it for years, then watch a match and get bowled over. Wrestling, to me, is always about the mindset I'm in. If you need help with WoS let me know.
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I think there's enough Gorgeous George out there to vote for him.
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One thing that interests me about Japanese wrestling is the kohai/senpai relationship between the wrestlers. Jumbo was infamously stingy with how he treated his kohai whereas Tenryu was the opposite (only to discover later on that his kohai didn't actually want to spend all night drinking with him.) I just watched a Japanese TV segment on Netflix where celebrities reveal their biggest mistakes/regrets, and Liger was on the show talking about how his behavior toward his kohai damaged his reputation with younger wrestlers. I don't know how much of it was a work, but there are a lot of rumors about the hazing that Liger liked to inflict on younger wrestlers. There was an amusing segment where Liger demonstrated the difference between how he greeted his own senpai Choshu and the way he greeted one of his kohai, which was almost like a surprise nipple grab from behind .
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It depends how you define obscure. There are overlooked areas of wrestling even in our circles. Personally, I don't think 50s US wrestling, British wrestling, French wrestling, German wrestling or 80s Joshi are obscure, and I definitely think you can find top 100 candidates from each. The list ends up being longer than 100 wrestlers anyway. It's closer to the top 500 wrestlers of all-time.
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I find it easier to appreciate things in retrospect, especially 20 years later. Joshi was a hell of a lot more promising in the early 00s than the male promotions. There was a time when it felt like Hamada, Satomura and Nakanishi were going to carry the banner for Joshi as the next generation. It felt apart pretty quickly, but the early 00s were full of promise and a renaissance of sorts for Japanese women's wrestling.
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I am pretty sure comic book sales have improved from where they were at the end of the 90s.
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If wrestling wants to become popular again it should study what Kevin Feige achieved with the Marvel Cinematic Universe. When Marvel was bankrupt and on the bones of its arse, who would have thought that one day it would end up dominating box office receipts? Superheroes were a known commodity before the MCE. Comics were a known commodity before the MCE. Wrestling is a known commodity now. If wrestling were able to find a novel way to relaunch itself through gaming, movies, or some other platform, then perhaps it would catch on. If it wants to stay the course then I think it would benefit from an off-season. Half the anticipation in television these days is the wait for another season.
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I think you should sample as many as possible and deep dive the ones that appeal to you. Ideally, you read a bunch of folks talking about Bockwinkel, it piques your interest, you check out a few of his matches and you want to see more. Then maybe you like a few of his opponents and you check out some of their matches, or you try to find workers similar to Bockwinkel. I don't see why this can't be an organic and enjoyable experience. It's much easier to do now than it was when we did the original list in '06. Back then we were limited to what we'd seen on tape or what some kind soul was prepared to upload for us. Unless you're strategically voting for a particular style (which I am against, fwiw), you don't have enough space to include every great worker you come across. If it's 50s wrestling, for example, you might want to watch Thesz, Gagne, Rogers, Schmidt, etc., but I don't think anyone's going to hold it against you if you don't get to Baron Michele Leon, Lord James Blears or Billy Goelz, to name drop a few. The onus is on folks who are familiar with those styles to make a compelling case for wrestlers you should watch.
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Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 4
ohtani's jacket replied to TravJ1979's topic in Pro Wrestling
Lots of rumors swirling about Inoki's health. He released a video, but he didn't look good. -
This was a good match. The finish was screwy, but it was a running theme throughout the match so it wasn't a surprise. The bulk of the work was strong. I was especially pleased with how involved Fuerza was, and the fact that he didn't look washed. You don't really get those amazing Fuerza moments at this stage of his career, though there were some fun stooging moments with Lizmark Jr. Shocker has dyed his hair the same pinkish color as Mascara Magica and his workrate has improved tremendously. This was a good outing from Shocker. He's struggled to be The Man in CMLL, but you can tell that it's there brimming under the surface. He just needs to bring it out on a regular basis. It just goes to show that we take for granted guys who bring that superstar presence to every match. I've gotta say, the Black Tiger gimmick isn't something I'd ordinarily enjoy, but I've really liked Silver King's work during this run. Successful multi-man matches usually leave me salivating for a singles match, and this time it was Tiger vs. Shocker.
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Inca Peruano & Giuseppe Daidone vs. Mic Charre & Jean Fryziuk (aired 11/10/61) This was a fun match. I particularly liked the individual match-up between Peruano and Fryziuk. Perunao is somewhat more subdued in the 60s compared to his 50s flamboyance, but he's still a top class worker, and Fryziuk is one of the best babyface foils in catch. This also the best Daidone has looked. He's more of a nuts and bolts heel compared to the other showmen, but it works against a strong babyface pairing in Charre & Fryziuk. Charre rounded things off with some nice looking holds. Everyone brought something to the table in this one. Monsieur Montreal & Ami Sola vs. Pierre Bernaert & Jack Rouxel (aired 1/12/62) This was decent. Bernaert is never gonna be the Tully Blanchard super heel that I want him to be, but he has flashes of greatness. I'm probably underrating him. If I ever watch his stuff again, I'll probably find cause to reappraise him. This was mostly based around the Mr. Montreal vs. Rouxel match-up, which is a match they had ran before on TV. It was decent enough. Sola didn't stand out as much as he has in previous matches.
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I don't think folks should stick to what they know and like. If Okada is your guy, there's no point arguing about where he rates compared to other candidates. He's your guy. You know you're going to vote for him. Instead, you should be looking for guys you haven't seen much of. Maybe you haven't seen any Akira Maeda, so you check out a few of his more acclaimed matches. Maybe they do nothing for you, and you move on, or perhaps they get you more into UWF and RINGS and you wind having a few more shoot style guys to round out your list. Maybe you like his New Japan stuff and that leads you down a rabbit hole of Fujinami and Choshu matches. The worst thing you can do is say I hate old school wrestling so I'm not gonna watch any of that. You won't fill every gap. That's true. When the results came out last time, I realized I hadn't seen any of the 50s workers, which sent me down a huge rabbit hole. These days I'm interested in 00s indy workers, something that never appealed to me before. You should be trying to broaden your wrestling viewing with a project like this. It's a time to try new things and discover new workers. I don't think people should worry about the results or making a case for anyone. They should be trying to find new favorite workers.
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I want more footage of wrestlers playing pick up games.
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Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 4
ohtani's jacket replied to TravJ1979's topic in Pro Wrestling
He didn't just wear robes. -
Good matches "ruined" by their endings
ohtani's jacket replied to KawadaSmile's topic in Pro Wrestling
I'll take that over phenomenal Dusty promo followed by Dusty match. I feel like Steamboat isn't the only worker from that era who was a weak promo but a great in-ring worker. I don't remember guys like Windham, Blanchard or Valentine being great promos. I'm sure they had their moments, but they didn't stand out like Flair, Dusty or Piper. Back then it was enough to be a serviceable promo and have hot studio angles. But uncool is a state of mind. There are plenty of times I've thought guys like Nobuhiko Takada were uncool. -
Good matches "ruined" by their endings
ohtani's jacket replied to KawadaSmile's topic in Pro Wrestling
Steamboat was meant to be the polar opposite of Flair. The epitome of uncool. Why would you want cool babyface Steamboat vs. cool heel Flair? Steamboat did his talking in the ring. Steamboat in Chi-Town Rumble, c'mon! If Steamboat at his best isn't one of the all-time great babyfaces then who the frack is? Later on it got stupid with the fire-breathing and the dragon costumes, but Steamboat's WCW return as the mystery partner? There's a classic angle for you. I just watched a nice piece of business between Steamboat and Austin. Most of it was Austin talking trash, but Ricky gave him a decent slap then jumped into the ring and fired up the studio crowd. It's harder to play a likeable babyface than it is to play the cussing Steve Austin role. Steamboat wasn't a cool babyface. He certainly wasn't cool in this segment. However, it was effective. -
This atomicos match has a few things you'll immediately realize -- like Panther vs. Atlantis, which is probably my all-time lucha match-up, and Panther vs. Casas, which foreshadows the matches they'd have later on. It also has Juvie vs. Casas and Atlantis which is different .The Japanese guys try to take their cues wherever they can, but the native matchups don't rise above how they look on paper, so it it's not their fault that this bout is average.
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Good matches "ruined" by their endings
ohtani's jacket replied to KawadaSmile's topic in Pro Wrestling
I call bullshit on Steamboat being a matches guy. He was awesome in his face roles in all of his famous feuds. The weak periods where he's not producing strong feuds or strong matches are because of bad booking. Steamboat didn't do anything after the Savage feud is true, but it's not because Steamboat couldn't carry a feud after Savage, it's because they didn't give him anything to do. He had a likeable, 80s babyface image. It was a simpler time, and perhaps an easier time to be a babyface, but he was likeable. His acting might have been wooden at times, and he was better at in-ring theatrics than cutting a promo. If he was a straight matches guy, he could have had decent matches in Japan or worked better programs against house show opponents. Personally, I think his best work is his 90s WCW run. His Dangerous Alliance era work is legendary to me. If Arn is the MVP of the heel side then Steamboat is the MVP of the babyface side. -
Storyline-wise, there was no reason to have this match in April. At least no reason that I could think of. But forget about serialized lucha, the good news here was that this was a hell of a workout. CMLL presented it as rudo vs. rudo, but you might as well trust your own instincts at this point. The first fall was polished, but bland, GdI work. You know the drill. What made this match exciting was the second fall comeback and the back and forth tercera. It was short by classic lucha standards, but Satanico continued his amazing 2002 run, Shocker flexed his tecnico muscle, and Magica took a step up and showed he could hang with the big boys without embarrassing himself. Good work conquers all.
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[2002-10-25-APW] Super Dragon vs Bobby Quance
ohtani's jacket replied to Jetlag's topic in October 2002
Jetlag was right about this. Really good match. I don't know who Bobby Quance is, or what happens to him, but for the most part I thought he was a better opponent for Super Dragon than Danielson, and I liked his all-round style. Dragon was much tighter here and rock solid throughout the bout. The finish was an abomination, but this was another US indy match that felt fresher than the styles it was aping. There was a time when I would have dismissed this type of wrestling as second-rate or a cheap knockoff, but 20 years later I get it.- 1 reply
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- 2002
- october 25
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(and 3 more)
Tagged with:
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Jack de Lasartesse vs. Al Gamain (aired 1/7/61) Lasartesse is brilliant, isn't he? We've seen a lot of great heel workers in French Catch, but Lasartesse still finds a way to stand out. His swagger is second to none. Gamian looked like he was from decent stock, but if he thought this was going to be a fair fight he was dreaming. Match turns into a scrap and Lasartesse wins it with a killer knee drop. Jacques Bernieres vs. Jean Martin (aired 4/21/61) We get the final leg of this. Martin looks like a fun worker. The crowd throw him a peanut, or something, and he eats it in glorious fashion. Monsieur Montreal vs. Jack Rouxel (aired 9/15/61) JIP. A pair of big boys trading blows. Iska Khan & Serge Gentilly vs. Yves Amor & Pierre Rouanet (aired 9/15/61) This was better than it appeared. Gentilly hasn't left a strong impression on me to date, but I thought he worked well with Amor and Rouanet. I've complained a bit about shitty judo in Catch, but Khan does the gimmick better than most. Gentilly does the lion's share of the work here and Khan mostly works the hot tag. He works the comedy angle once too often, but he has the same relentless offense as Great Togo. Amor is great. In Amor we trust. Rouanet is also impressive, but Amor holds this together by being the most solid of heels. Gentilly gets a chance to shine instead of being in the JIP bouts. This gets the thumbs up from me.