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Everything posted by Grimmas
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I appreciate him more now. He is truer to my heart. The only way he drops is because I've deep dived into joshi and women's indies.
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1) Sorry I LOVE JOSHI. It's my favourite wrestling ever, and I don't hate Toyota (although you seem to be lumping me in with that crowd). Toyota does not equal joshi. I think people you mentioned you could easily argue are about than Toyota. Toyota will be low on my GWE list and many many many joshi workers will be ahead of her. 2) SHE SELLED GREAT, in the moment. Then she would brush it off and ignore it to get her spots in. That's all anybody is saying. She gets her legs worked on for 15 minutes and then pops up and hits 15 drop kicks (this is not an exaggeration). It's infuriating.
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If true, it should be pretty damn easy then, eh? Go for it, make your arguments based on the footage we have.
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Kong in 1990 wasn't great, she was way down the totem pole, behind Bison Kimura, Nakano, Hokuto, Hotta, and probably others I'm forgetting.
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Every match Bull is in, except the ones against Hokuto, she is the biggest star and the better wrestler. By the end Kong may be on her level, but the first half of their feud Bull is the star. Not everyone connects with everyone, but damn Bull is the complete package for me an is my working #2 behind Hokuto on my GWE list. Also, does a wrestler need to be #1 in every category to be the best? You named one of the best ever in every category and said Bull is not that, but if you took all those categories and took all those people you mentioned, how does she fair? I don't get the argument that one person had a great match and how that is relevant to discounting another worker. Kandori had the greatest match ever, doesn't mean I rank her 1 or 2. Now your argument, obviously, but from higher up the thread.
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I'm going through this stuff and will get to this match, but I so doubt this claim. If you are right that is so incredibly wild.
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What are the top ten Le Petit Prince matches I can watch to really make their case?
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Can you actually make a case for him top 10?
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Two of the best scarecrow wrestlers in history. Oh boy, Toyota for me, but I don't have a side in this fight but I want to view the bloodbath.
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Steven Watching Joshi (from every era, including current)
Grimmas replied to Grimmas's topic in The Microscope
Back to the 1990s! AJW (1992-08-30) 1) Kyoko Inoue vs. Mariko Yoshida (Japan Grand Prix Quarter Final) THIS RULES! Yoshida has been really stepping up in 1992 and Inoue always rules. We start off slow, but it really picks up with Inoue going for her bizarre moves and Yoshida going for pins. This match has one of the best giant swings where it goes forever and near the end Inoue is almost dragging Yoshida around. We also had one of the best knee up counter to top rope splashes. Some amazing near falls by Yoshida before she finally hits a super sunset flip for the win! Yoshida did a great job of selling her back the entire time. [7.25] 2) Bull Nakano & Suzuka Minami & Yumiko Hotta vs Akira Hokuto & Etsuko Mita & Mima Shimoda The referee cannot contain this match and this is all about awesome shit happening, but because of the people on the apron they break up pins. One of my favourite things was a triple team senton as Bull's team holds up one of Hokuto's partners as Suzuka comes off the top with a senton. Later on LCO hold up Minami and Hokuto just comes off with a cane shot, REVENGE! Combat and Kudo are in the crowd, future interpromotional stuff! Suzuka Minami rules so hard and has always ruled, but never got a big sustained push. I really like her. Hotta hit a top rope cross armed german suplex on Suzuka and that was insane. What a fun chaos match! [7.5] 3) Aja Kong vs Toshiyo Yamada (Japan Grand Prix Semi Final) This is my favourite match of the show. Yamada goes nuts trying to slap the shit out of Kong to start. That was a mistake and Kong destroys her with strikes before destroying her all through out the arena. Yamada bleeds real bad. When we get back in, Yamada gets some hope spots in, before Kong kills her again. She uses weapons and finishes her off with a top rope back elbow. This was essentially a squash with hope and it RULED! Kong is getting better and better. [7.75] 4) Manami Toyota vs Mariko Yoshida (Japan Grand Prix Semi Final) Toyota continues to take on people who have already had a match earlier in the night. What a heel. Yoshida rules, but she makes the biggest mistake you can do in a match against Toyota, she works the leg. She sells so well in the moment, but later on she has to run the ropes and delivery a ton of dropkicks... She's the ultimate scarecrow wrestler, if she only had a brain she'd be the best. To be fair, she wasn't as bad here as normal. Weirdly enough, Toyota starts selling the back for no reasons, so Yoshida works that instead. Lots of great shit in this like Toyota's Asai and Yoshida hitting a top rope DDT. They trade nearfalls but a huge bridging back suplex by Toyota gets the win. 5) Aja Kong vs Manami Toyota (Japan Grand Prix Final) Kong kicks ass. I love that she was doing a package piledriver in 1992! They trade nearfalls, it's fun, but doesn't hit the level of other matches. A big choke slam by Kong wins the Grand Prix. AJW is the best! -
GWE is a success just based on this response.
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Chigusa is the greatest babyface worker of all-time. Chigusa by quite a lot.
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Comparing workers that started before 2000 to workers who started after 2000 is so difficult. The post 2000 crowd literally had the goal of having great matches, while that was not really the goal pre 2000. You really have to dig into a lot of things. I had Bret > Bryan in 2016, but as stated above they are really similar. No idea how I will vote in 2026 between the two.
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Steven Watching Joshi (from every era, including current)
Grimmas replied to Grimmas's topic in The Microscope
The timelines are getting little mixed up, but here we are in modern day. Stardom Tokyo Dream Cinderella Special Edition (2021-06-12) Stardom gets English commentary and I generally watch their big shows. This one has been built up well too. Sadly I forgot to take any notes until a few matches in. 1) Maika vs Unagi Sayaka (Cinderella Tournament Semi-Final) If you haven't watched Stardom, the Cinderella Tournament is a single elimination tournament where matches end by pinfall, submission, or being thrown over the top rope to the floor. Winner gets a dress, a tiara, and one wish. Maika is an awesome power wrestler and Unagi is relatively new to Stardom and is getting a push here. A fun opener. 2) Saya Kamitani vs Himeka (Cinderella Tournament Semi-Final) Saya patterns herself after Hayabusa and Himeka patterns herself after Jumbo Tsuruta, so this is a nice contrast. A really great dynamic here. Says hits the Star Crusher (Hayabusa's Falcon Arrow) for the win in a really solid match. 3) AZM & Natsupoi vs Giulia & Tam Nanako vs Mina Shirakawa & Momo Watanabe (Random Drawing Match) Originally everyone was with their proper tag partners, but to make the match more exciting a few weeks back they announced that the teams would be determined by random drawing. Giulia/Tam have had a huge feud in 2020/21, Momo has made fun of Mina for being a joke, and AZM/Natsupoi are on different heel and face stables. Normally this kind of shit would be annoying and stupid, but this FUCKING RULED!!! Momo going full comedy teaming with Mina and doing her poses was hilarious. AZM/Natsupoi kind of worked well together. Tam/Giulia would fight each other and their opponents. They did fun stop like slapping each other to pump them up or slamming each other into their opponents. It's also the best of this type of format as 3 people are in the ring and you only tag your own partner. This was a fucking delight! AZM rolls up Mina for the win. Post match AZM says she made a great team with Natsupoi, but they won't be teaming up anymore. Giulia says she was unlucky to get Tam as a partner and Tam says "you are shit" and walks away. [7.0] 4) Oedo Tai (Fukigen Death, Konami, Natsuko Tora, Ruaka & Saki Kashima) vs Rin Kadokura & STARS (Hanan, Koguma, Mayu Iwatani & Starlight Kid) (Elimination match, last person eliminated joins the other team) A few months back they had a similar match where Oedo Tai took Fukigen Death and STARS are trying to bring the clown back home to their team and away from the evil of Oedo Tai. This is good stuff where everybody shines, but it all comes down to Starlight Kid against Natsuko Tora and Saki Kashima. SLK gets a roll up on Saki, leaving it down to two. So either the most evil person in the company will join the goody stable or the most wholesome wrestler on the roster will join the most evil stable. An all out brawl erupts and Mayu gets tied up in the corner, while Tora taunts her and pins SLK with her looking on. The post match is FUCKING AWESOME! Mayu is crying as she lost SLK and promises SLK she will win her back and asks her to be patient. Tora mocks Mayu and says SLK is now the bottom rung of Oedo Tai under even Rauka. SLK either fighting to stay pure or turning evil is going to rule and I can't wait to see where this goes! 5) Maika vs Saya Kamitani (Cinderalla Tournament Final) Saya focuses on Maika's injured leg with some vicious limb work and does a great job of incorporating her high flying into attacking the knee. Maika's power is too much to be ignored and it makes for a great match. Some huge nearfalls near the end of the match including a top rope superplex that looked outstanding. To end the match Saya hits a Star Crusher for two and follows it up with a PHOENIX SPLASH for the win! Holy crap!!!! [8.0] Kamitani will go backstage and get her dress and crown and come back later to announce her wish. 6) Utami Hayashishita (c) vs Syuri (World of Stardom Title) THIS RULES!!!!!!!! Utami is a great power wrestler and technician, while Syuri is a former UFC fighter who relies on submission, takedowns, and kicks. Two of my absolute favourite wrestlers working today. It does seem like everytime Utami gains some control, Syuri has a counter with a kick or an MMA submission. They have an outstanding and dramatic match that goes 30 minutes before being called a draw. Post match they keep fighting before Syuri says she can keep going forever and so does Utami, so they restart the match! The restart has these two really go at it! Syuri is a fucking never stopping machine and hits one of the coolest spots I've ever seen. Both on the top rope she does a wristlock takeover and holds on to it so when they are on the mat she keeps the submission on. Brutal strikes, some nearfalls (but not too man), and huge drama until one kick too many has both get knocked out at 13:19 of the restart, so a total of 43:19 of a match. [9.5] I generally hate long matches, but this fucking clicked and never really felt long or excessive. Post match, Syuri slaps her again before being helped to the back. Tora comes out to ride the wave of momentum and to challenge for Utami's red belt, which Utami accepts. Then she gets helped to the back. Saya Kamitani arrives in a beautiful green dress and crown and gets a nice glass slipper trophy before saying she will challenge Tam for the white belt. Tam comes to ringside and doesn't look happy, but leaves giving Kamitani her moment with confetti to end the show. This show rules and the english commentary was pretty okay, which is awesome for wrestling standards. Best Stardom show in a while! -
1) I don't think Flair's career is a joke and never said that. 2) I didn't say every single Flair match was identical. There was obviously exceptions. What I meant is Flair seemed to care more about having his match and getting his stuff in then tailoring the match to his opponent. 3) I don't know how you took what I wrote as me taking Flair as a comedy wrestler. Again, this is a general thing and of course there is exceptions. Flair's worked thousands of matches. 4) Yes Flair had more classic matches, I said that in my post. Q) Why did he only deliver when he was given the chance to put on a "spotlight" match? A) I've seen enough nothing house show matches with Bret that he worked really hard to make them good. Yes, Bret would do better in spotlight matches. Yes he tried harder when it was more important, however to pretend he didn't deliver good matches when the spotlight was off is something I disagree with. Q) Why does he have so few memorable TV matches? A) His ratio is pretty good. WWF TV was not designed to have good TV matches, but he did deliver many times. Memorable TV matches: vs Savage (SNME), vs Owen (Action Zone), vs Benoit (Nitro), vs Kid (Raw), vs Hakushi (Raw), vs DDP (Nitro), w/ Neidhart vs Islanders (All-American Wrestling), vs Dynamite Kid (Prime Time Wrestling). Q) And what are you supposed to do if you're taking a moonsault and there's no one nearby to brawl with? A) Don't take one. Jaw with a fan and turn around in time. Tie your shoe and look up in time. Whatever works and isn't you standing around like an idiot waiting. Flair is great, I don't know why you are thinking I'm treating Flair like a comedy guy who isn't top 200. I'm comparing him to Bret and I feel Bret is a lot better.
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In a wrestling sense, he's not a smart worker and does a lot of dumb things.
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Here was the playlist: Butch Reed vs Jerry Blackwell (St. Louis, 1982-11-28, 2/3 Falls) Butch Reed vs Junkyard Dog (Houston, 1983-07-29) Butch Reed vs Tito Santana (Houston, 1984-01-13) Butch Reed vs Magnum T.A. (Houston, 1984-08-31) Butch Reed vs Buzz Sawyer (Mid South, 1985-12-31, Dog Collar) Butch Reed vs Superstar Billy Graham (WWF, 1987-10-16, Cage) Butch Reed & Ron Simmons vs Rick Steiner & Scott Steiner (WCW Capital Combat, 1990-05-09)
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I think these two work very similarly and are both extremely charismatic. I don't know if I know how to differentiate them really. What do you folks think?
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12 eastern, one hour away from Butch Reed Watch Party! https://sync-tube.de/rooms/E9ryouCRu
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Rey Jr. and I don't think it's that close. Rey was just spectacular in the ring most of his career and eventually found a way to be one of the best sympathetic babyfaces in wrestling history. The size helps, but the way he worked really helped. Vader is someone I find super cool. I really like him and like watching him work, however most times I watch him I feel something is missing. He's this bad ass huge monster who never felt dominate enough. I know selling for people makes a more fair match, and I know monster's can sell and it works (look at Tenta), but Vader maybe did it too much. Both are top 50 wrestlers, but I don't think think this one is as close as it may seem on paper.
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The very first podcast I ever did was about this topic. I defended Bret then, but I was unsure and not confident in that take. Years and years later and I am very confident in that take. If you want to argue Flair had more great matches, had more variety of opponents, and settings then sure. You can argue, pretty easily, that Flair had a greatest wrestling career than Bret Hart. However, we are debating who is the greater wrestler. Flair is stupid. Sure, he has good instincts. Sure, he can make things exciting. Sure. However, I think it's pretty clear Flair didn't put great thought into his matches and most of the time he wasted a lot of time he had in the match and did stupid spots just because that has his spot he did every match. Bret is smart. The little touches he put into things is unmatched by almost any other wrestler. Two great examples. In 1995 going through tables gained popularity, but were mostly someone lying around like an idiot, but Bret found a way to make a table bump look not stupid (against Diesel at Survivor Series 95). At in IYH, he took on Hakushi and was one of the first wrestlers to take an Asai moonsault without standing around like an idiot, instead he brawled with Hakushi's manager and caught the moonsault out of nowhere. Bret makes you believe wrestling is a competition, Flair makes you believe wrestling is entertainment. When you are watching Bret vs someone you want to root for Bret (or against) as you feel it's a competition. Everything he does in the ring is realistic in the sense of pro wrestling. Now it's not RINGS, but in wrestling context it's a contest. Flair, on the other hand, makes you root against him because he's a jerk. He does all these things that makes you feel wrestling is silly. He'll get his pants pulled down, he'll do spots that make you laugh. Sure you root against him, but that's because he's either cheating or a sexual abuser, not really because you buy into the match being a contest. The match is more for show. Bret had way less 60 minute boring draws. People make the argument that Flair would have a lot of people's best match of their career. While true, it's also true for Bret. However, there is a big difference. With Flair's opponent, they are having a Flair match. The person having their career match could almost be anyone and it would be similar. Bret, though, would cater his matches to his opponent more. He would have Diesel's greatest matches, but having a Diesel match. He would have Waltman's best match, but having a Waltman match. He would have Austin's best match, but having an Austin match. Bret's offense was better, by far. It looked better and looked like it hurt more. A huge one for me is finishes. Bret was the best at finishes. So much so that so many people would copy his finishes and use them through out there career. I could go on and on. Name something that makes a great wrestler and I think Bret did it better than Flair, or I probably don't think it actually is something important. I may be missing something obvious, but Bret > Flair.
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The classic debate should be the first thread.
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or you can vote for both.
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I only nominate people I might consider or I think others should consider, however if you can make a case and follow the rules there is really nothing you from nominating anyone if you want to waste the time.
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Steven Watching Joshi (from every era, including current)
Grimmas replied to Grimmas's topic in The Microscope
I still think about that spot, it ruled! These two were cooler, so watch this match!