Grimmas

Control21 said: Might be the best wrestler to come out of Georgia? I can't think of many other examples. That's probably not a good headliner by itself, but he was a very fine shoot-style wrestler and really helped RINGS define its unique, state-of-art style through the years as he introduced a Georgian wrestling style that many hadn't seen before. Guys like Zaza really helped develop the RINGS house style I think, because flashy and highly technical matches became the expectation among the fans due to the level of work seen from some of the eastern European grapplers. He was able to have a good match with almost anybody. Maybe a top 25 shoot-style guy? I would put his matches up against anybody on that list. Recommended matches - Zaza vs Volk Han (5/16/92) Zaza vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (12/19/95) Zaza vs Kohsaka (7/22/97)

Control21 said: Another Russian SAMBO guy who made a name for himself in RINGS. His career was limited to RINGS like the other Russian guys in RINGS, save for one match in U-Style against Kawada which was decent. Like Zouev, Han, and Kopylov though, he was very good from a pure technical standpoint. I don't think he had any bad matches either. He was a crowd favorite in RINGS by 1998/1999, and he really put together some late RINGS classics with Kiyoshi Tamura and Tsuyoshi Kohsaka. In terms of shoot-style, it's hard not to consider him one of the top 25 guys in the style. Recommended matches - Ilyukhin vs Kiyoshi Tamura (1/28/98) Ilyukhin vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (9/21/98) Ilyukhin vs Nikolai Zouev (10/21/95)

Control21 said: Certainly doesn't have the resume that Volk Han has, but he was one of the smoothest workers in RINGS and is an example of an intricate technical wrestler that has a lot of finesse to his game. He was probably one of the guys that brought a lot of flavor to RINGS' early period along with Volk Han, Kopylov, Willie Peeters, and Dick Vrij. He was a great SAMBO specialist and his matches really stood out from other shoot-style stuff at the time. I think Kopylov, Zouev, and Han are the best wrestlers to ever come out of Russia and I would rank them above Zangiev and Hashimikov if I am being honest. If we are considering the entire work-shoot spectrum, they founded Russia Top Team, which was a pioneering group for Russia's MMA development. A good example of someone who could sneak into my top 100 based on pure technical ability. Recommended matches - Nikolai Zouev vs Andrei Kopylov (10/23/93) Nikolai Zouev vs Volk Han (11/18/93) Nikolai Zouev vs Kiyoshi Tamura (6/21/97) Nikolai Zouev vs Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (11/20/98)

Jetlag said: Okay, hear me out. On the surface he's a Zero1 jobber who rarely made TV. How on earth can he have a case? But really, if you look at his indy career, he has been a great wrestler since at least 1997 (only 1 year in his career), and up to 2018. That's a 21 year span. He's shown up in huge variety of different settings, and is always extremely efficient. And he was a pretty great character in Z1 too, attacking people with crazy headbutts and having a few memorable short TV matches. His technical ability is pretty good and he has a knack for building great matches around a few suplexes and his incredibly violent headbutts, which he uses better than almost everyone. Another interesting thing about him is his project EXIT, a promotion that seems to focus on short, intensely violent matches in a ring that has chains instead of ropes. If anything, he's a guy I always want to check out no matter what kind of match he's in. Recommended matches: w Makoto Saito vs. Cosmo*Soldier & Takeshi Sato, WYF 6/10/1997 vs. Katsuhiko Masada, MUGA 4/6/1999 w BUKI vs. Yuki Ishikawa & Johta, EXIT 7/14/2018

Jetlag said: The case of Yasushi Sato is even more mysterious than Watanabe. From what I know he only started wrestling in the mid-2000s, at a pretty old age, and barely ever making tape. But when he does, this guy looks like a wrestling genius. He is incredibly efficient working technical matches built around his leg grapevine moves. He also has a neck for unique amateur spots and cradles, a bit like a smaller Tamon Honda. I wouldn't hesitate to call his match against Masamune a match of the decade contender, and for someone who shows up on tape so little his hit rate of great matches is incredibly high. Definitely someone everyone should check out. Recommended matches: vs. Masamune (Mumejuku 6/3/2018) vs. Hiroshi Watanabe, Mumejuku 4/17/2019 w Konaka Pale One vs. Hiroshi Watanabe & Hideya Iso, Mumejuku 2/5/2017

Jetlag said: The story of Hiroshi Watanabe is that he was an incredibly talented wrestler whose lack of size denied him success or exposure beyond Z-level indies. That said if you come across him, he is an incredible discovery. The most apt description I can come up with is that he's a sleazier, shorter Osamu Nishimura. A guy who has a knack for working lengthy, extremely technical, brainy matches. Fortunately for us the fed called MUMEJUKU allowed guys like him to do their thing and work the niche 70s throwback matches our hearts long for. I'd say Watanabe is easily one of the best pro-style matworkers outside of lucha of the 21st century. Given how rare quality pro style matwork is these days he's remarkable. He also manages to do his throwback style without feeling phony or like a LARP. That kind of dedication - the fact he's wrestling for over 20 years working the lowest of the low indies and still puts on great performances working brainy technical matches in front of the smallest crowds - should make him well worthy of all-time level consideration despite limited tape history. Recommended matches: vs. Fuminori Abe, HEAT-UP 5/19/2019 vs. Yasushi Sato, Mumejuku 4/17/2019 vs. Kousei Maeda, Mumejuku 6/2/2007

I'll let you answer your own question from July 4th of this year: I thought my point was pretty clear, but I'll elaborate for you. Hokuto, because of injuries and other factors, was not the most prolific wrestler. The company that she worked for, like most Japanese wrestling promotions, thought they could bypass the television networks that kept pushing their timeslots back by going straight to the VHS market. Therefore, the majority of the footage we have of Hokuto in her best year is from commercial VHS tapes, which is the equivalent of judging Eddie on his PPV bouts. Perhaps I was wrong in implying than more than 20-odd matches per year is normal for the average candidate. AJW TV wasn't a weekly TV show but rather a taped house show, and a lot of episodes are rendered redundant by having commercial releases later on, but I feel like we have a better understanding of Eddie in his prime runs than we do of Hokuto. Now, if you have watched the available handheld footage from 1993, or you have something to add about her comedy squash matches from that year, feel free to add something to the conversation.

A nice disclaimer would be nice, just so I know what I am getting into it. I really hate thinking I am getting a match and it's a clip instead.

Yeah, why watch someone if there is a lot of footage of them? No way they can be good.

The WP on her was freaking great and she keeps adding to her case with great matches this year and amazing performances almost every match out. Really a strong candidate. I love her as an ace working younger workers.

The bar was 3 full matches. Do you really think that is unreasonable if you are going to rank a wrestler in a list who is the greatest?

Cool. 1/4 of a match is not enough to tell if they can do that or not.

Exactly! For some reason though I suspect when there is saved footage of folks, it's generally their best.

If I limited Low Ki down to that much footage there is no question they are the #1 in GWE no questions asked. Obviously they are not and wont' even make my list. That small of a sample to base on is very odd.

Thank you, love to see this list used. Makes an interesting case for them.

I honestly think if Orton went to NJPW or AEW he'd be considered among the all time greats. However, we have what we have and I can't enjoy him based on that.

We are supposed to be voting this based on footage and let's be honest there is so many wrestlers I would never consider for the top 100 that if I removed their footage down to these bare minimums they could easily be my #1. The only criteria is based on footage and 3 full matches is like the lowest bar their could be and you want it even lower? What's next? Voting on people based on what people wrote about them in books? I love your passion. I love how you invested into these people. However voting on them as some of the greatest wrestlers ever when we have like 0.01% of their career on tape and not even full matches seems utterly bizarre. You have to also know the best footage was saved not the worst footage. If you have 18 minutes of an 80 minute match that's most likely the best 18 minutes not the worst. For all you know there is like 60 minutes of rest holds on top of that where nothing happens, yet you are using your imagination to fill in the gaps.

Elliott and I debated this for awhile and I think it's an amazing starting point of discussions. I would love for people to post some of these in threads making their arguments,

I thought the requirement was to recommend three matches. I guess I didn't explicit state it, but 3 FULL matches. Was that bypassed for Londos?

Okay, maybe we don't need to muddle the waters I thought it was a fun idea, but maybe that's something entirely different.

I LOVED this match. You can call it the Eagle Sawai revenge for Dream Slam match and it's a thing of beauty. She goes after Kong the whole match and clearly is upset for the previous match. While Kyoko Inoue sees Leo Kitamura (someone who is clearly doing a Kyoko ripoff gimmick) and she proceeds to try to murder her. The crowd is insane due to interpromotional nature and it's fun to see the LLPW be the babyface heros! I went 9/10 and it's a must watch match!

If you think they are awesome, yeah why not?

So... based on this thread this is what it sounds like. Normal GWE voting 100, but maybe raising the 3 full match recs up to 5-10 to be on that list. Other GWE voting 25, that one you can vote for any even if they are clips, but also people like Ernie Ladd who we have a bunch of matches of, but not really their prime, so it's more of a hunch list. That would be my proposal. Other list has a lot of French, 70s, just folks who we are missing most of their career. So yeah, someone like Bockwinkel will obviously do well on GWE, but would do better on the other list because we are missing his prime, so could be ranked on both? Is this is the vibe I'm picking up here?

That's the separate list I was thinking about.

Yeah Hans may be a bad example, didn't realize there was that much. The threeshold is something I'm not sure where to draw the line. Hodge and Valentine would be good bets for sure, Jackie Fargo too. It's so weird we have a lot of 50s, but less 70s. My idea would be the people we don't have enough footage of to really know how to place and we have to use extrapolation. What that number is, not sure. I would love those folks to get their dues though. We could have a floating target, like a percentage of their matches on tape or something. That's a line that would need to be discussed and figured out, but I think the idea in principal is good.