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I've heard tell of him having a match against World Champion Randy Savage in Los Angeles that was dubbed a classic "work smarter, not harder" match. Does anyone have a date and can they vouch for this? I'd like to give it a look, it sounds interesting.

From what I remember, and I might be totally wrong about this, Pro Westling Plus was only on TSN sporadically and always in different time slots, similar to the AWA show. It seems to me it was a hard show to follow regularly, although I do remember watching it quite a bit around 1986-87. Anyway, and this is based on 25 year old memories, the promotions I remember being featured on the show for sure were WCCW, Stampede, Florida, and maybe Memphis. I'm sure there were many others, but I don't remember Crockett. I can remember Luger being featured, but I'm pretty sure it was while he was still in Florida. Somebody else out there probably has much better info on the subject than I do. As for Worldwide, I'm almost 100% sure it wasn't available in Calgary during the 80s, but I don't know about the rest of Canada...maybe in the east?. Of course, the Apter mags (and non-Apter mags) were widely available, so us Canadians could follow Crockett that way. Quite right about Pro Wrestling Plus. As for the Apter mags (and others), there were loads of them in magazine stores and grocery stores but I got the feeling I was the only one reading them of any consistency. Among my peers, I always seemed to be the only one who had any idea about non WWF wrestling and didn't dismiss it out of hand. I found it hard to understand, WWF programming at the time was pretty much all squash matches, so any other shows would have at least more potential for something interesting happening. As late as 1997, when the NWO was in full bloom, I remember having a conversation with fellow wrestling fans (some of whom were older than me) and they were completely ignorant of any non-WWF wrestling before the NWO, even with it having been on TSN since early 91, and their views were completely canalized by WWF history.

I can't speak for Canada as a whole, but here is how it went in my part of Ontario. For a brief run we did get some syndicated NWA Crockett wrestling around the time of the 3 Horsemen (post-Luger, pre-Windham). I don't know what original show it was from, it had American content but Canadian bumpers (including Leo Burke and Milt Avruskin). The matches I remember it showing were Barry Windham vs. Mike Rotundo for the TV title (which was a bit of a shock, as I was coming back to wrestling after having watched it between Wrestlemania 1 and 2 and was wondering what had happened to US Express, and here they were feuding with each other in another company), Ric Flair vs Ricky Santana (yes, I wondered if he was related to Tito Santana), and Dusty Rhodes vs Bobby Eaton in a cage (another shock, as we had just gotten some AWA programming and I had just gotten used to the Original Midnight Express being managed by some guy with a portable phone, and here was this other Midnight Express being managed by some guy with a tennis racket). They showed 4-8 weeks of NWA, then switched over to AWA programming for a few weeks, then for some reason switched back over to NWA but showed the same 4-8 weeks they had already broadcast, which had the paradox of showing the Powers Of Pain when they had already jumped to the WWF. After that, there was no more NWA on my local TV. When I visited my grandparents in Newfoundland that summer, their US cable came from detroit, so I did see an NWA show with more surprises like Barry Windham and Ron Garvin having turned heel. Apart from one more visit to my grandparents the next year (where I saw the Great Muta for the first time), I didn't see any more NWA/WCW TV until Power Hour came to TSN in 1991. I became addicted to the Apter mags trying to keep up with what was going on, and rented every NWA tape at the local video stores multiple times. As for Pro Wrestling Plus, they rarely showed JCP footage, and when they did it was at least a year out of date. I remember them showing the Lex Luger Horsemen in an 8 man tag against 4 midcarders , but they were showing it in 1989-1990 . I do remember for some reason between shows TSN showed a couple of non WWF matches, but it was usually Lex taking the US Title from Nikita Koloff, which kept breaking my heart because I was a Nikita Fan (the other match they would show was, strangely, Steve Williams taking the UWF title from Big Bubba).

WCW started on TSN shortly after Flair took the belt back from Sting in 1991 . Soon after he jumped to the WWF, TBS and WGN were added to my cable package. So for this Canadian, at that point there was more (and better) WCW programming available than there was at that point WWF programming.

The weird thing is that I *just* finished watching the full original "Four Flat Tires" angle from Georgia between the Freebirds and Austin Idol & Kevin Sullivan right before putting on this disc. Odd coincidence.

This is just an idea for a thread I had the other day, don't know if it will fly but here goes. The idea is to discuss wrestlers who had reasonably long careers but don't normally get a lot of talk and discuss what their best match was. This isn't for great workers, no Rick Steamboat or Jushin Liger. It isn't really for bad workers (although that's in the eye of the beholder). It's for discussing the Al Perezes and Honky Tonk Mans (Men?) , the working wrestlers who may not have been considered spectacular but to remember the time (or times) they really took their chance to shine. Somebody suggests a name, then people suggest what they thought were their best (or really good underrated) matches and say why. Here goes ... first up, Tom Zenk. The Z-Man, career midcarder, briefly post-retirement internet sensation, good looking guy, never truly reached the upper level but generally solid wrestler. Best Match : Pillman vs. Z-Man Wrestlewar 5/17/92 for the WCW Light Heavyweight Title This initially looked like it would be a straightforward babyface match going in, but they rushed an angle just before the PPV and it was IMHO a pretty good one. Zenk and Pillman both get involved in a post-match skirmish with Pillman's new rival Scotty Flamingo, and in a joint interview afterwards, Z-Man makes the mistake of offering to put the title he hasn't won yet on the line against Flamingo. Pillman takes offense at Zenk seemingly taking for granted that he will win the belt and there is some tension going into the match. Pillman does a great job of telling the story of "You're my friend, but I am really pissed at you right now". Working with his former partner seemed to inspire Zenk to bring his A Game, and while it has been a while since I have watched this match, I remember getting very involved in it.

I got the impression they were slowly gearing up for Hogan vs. Windham, but Windham was gone before it could come to fruition. I distinctly remember Widowmaker targeting Hogan in some of his promos.

Ah, sorry, maybe they can move them into this thread, or just delete this thread. Whatever.

Done and done.

To split this off from the Hulk Hogan : Poor Sportsman thread, if you want to discuss the above mentioned side topic, please do it here.

I'm going from the RF Video shoot interview. At one point the interviewer asks him to name the most overrated wrestler he can think of. Barry pauses for thought, then says he will have to get back to that question. Later on in the interview, Barry is discussing his comeback as the Stalker, and mentioning how out of shape he was, then adds "In fact, further to your earlier question about the most overrated guys ... I'd have to say myself."

I guess I'm one of the bigger Windham fans out there, so I might as well weigh in. I find it hard to figure him being called "overrated" as such, because most opinions I have read rating him highly have I think a fairly accurate grasp on the phases of his career : He was awesome in the "classic" mid to late 80s period, ending when he left for the WWF to become the Widowmaker. Widowmaker didn't really get a lot to do, he had a decent match in all Japan with Jumbo, came back to WCW and kind of spun his wheels for a while. He got back on track with the feud with Doom, then picked up speed after that and was pretty much on fire through the feud with the Dangerous Alliance up until the heel turn. Apart from a few spots such as the great matches with Scorpio, he wasn't overwhelming in that run up until the match with Flair where the injuries finally caught up with him and he took time off. After that, he was pretty much a spent force apart from a few sparks such as the Hennig tags or the Corino match. Everybody who praises him acknowledges which were the strong periods in his career and which were the bad, including the man himself. I always considered Barry's comments about himself being "overrated" were not so much "I was never as good as people thought I was" but rather "I know how much was expected of me but I don't feel I achieved as much as I could have". Yes, there are long bad stretches in his career, but the good parts are so good and there are so many great matches, I feel ultimately he is worthy of the praise he gets.

I seem to recall Austin selling the knee injury for some weeks afterwards.

I remember shuddering watching it at the time, but now look at it as some classic enjoyable WrestleCrap .

I didn't mind ole Van Hammer ... his gimmick was weak and he came off a bit obnoxious, but he had some skills, was carryable and always tried. I remember rooting for him when he finally got his win over Cactus ... and right after that he got squashed by Sid.

This is is a match I've watched a fair number of times over the years, I watched the first broadcast on PPV, a few things stood out for me this time 'round : * I know it's hard for perfect execution in a battle royal, but there were a surprising number of badly botched moves, notably an horrific Shawn Michaels superkick where Flair took it in his hands that were held out a foot from his face but he sold it anyhow, I think this one was Flair's fault. * was it just me, or was the mic under the ring amped up extra loud? any time anyone was slammed or ran across the center of the ring, there would be a huge boom. * I was interested to see if this would have the original sound or the post-match remix where they switched the boos for Hogan and cheers for Sid, hard to tell, the reaction was kind of muted from the way I remember it but the crowd seemed to be clearly on Sid's side. No matter what they might have done to the sound to try to change the story, it's quite clear from the background shots that the crowd was visibly on Sid's side.

Sigh, nice thread we had going here , once upon a time.

Tying into that, can anyone think of an incident before the 92 Rumble when the crowd loudly turned on Hogan's dickery? I did read of an incident where Jake hit him with the DDT in the Snake Pit and the crowd chanted "DDT! DDT", but I think they were more cheering the move than turning on Hogan.

My strict policy is that, barring an out and out attempt on your life, you don't hit a woman ... *ever*. It doesn't matter how big she is or what she is doing, you never kit her.

Time was, I hated Hansen because he was such an effective monster heel. Today, there are few things in wrestling I enjoy more than watching him just out and out destroy someone with a lariat. The one could possibly go on the all time Hansen highlight reel.

Satanico!!!!!

This is something I was thinking about on another mental tangent started by my post in the "Most Historic Night" thread about WrestleMania III and the changing of the guard in the WWF babyfaces (and heels, for that matter), but would have taken that thread too far off topic. Please bear with me while I indulge in some rewriting history fantasy booking : So it's Wrestlemania 2 in the main event : Hulk Hogan vs King Kong Bundy in the steel cage. Only now something goes horribly wrong. When giving hogan an Avalanche or a big splash, Bundy lands wrong and legitimately cracks several of Hogan's ribs. They finish the match, but Hogan knows something is not right. Over the next few weeks, his ribs just get worse. Perhaps at this time Hogan, contemplating his career, gets interested in making movies. Maybe they make No Holds Barred 2 years early, perhaps he is the one who gets the offers for Hell Comes To Frogtown and They Live instead of Piper, who knows? Bottom line is that Hogan is gone some time after WM2, not for good but definitely for a while. So they switch the title from Hogan to , say, Piper ... Bundy and Heenan ambush Hogan before the match and interfere throughout to cheat the Hulkster out of the title. So now Piper is the transitional heel champ. So who is the babyface who rises up to challenge and become the new flagship WWF champion? Ricky Steamboat is a strong possibility. A very sexy choice for top face, cool gimmick, good looking, great wrestler, I know a lot of my friends at the time were Ricky Steamboat fans. But Steamboat had just spent the past year getting the crap kicked out of him by Don Muraco and had a thoroughly meaningless match with Hercules at WM2. Steamboat didn't have a lot of momentum at this point (the later Jake Roberts feud would kickstart that back into high gear towards the run with Savage). Another likely choice would be Paul Orndorff. Hogan's best friend going out for revenge and taking the belt is a great story. But again, his momentum had somewhat cooled at this point after the first burst of his face turn, and his match with Muraco at WM2 was pretty miserable. It would be the later Hogan feud that would relight the fire under him. Andre the Giant? Andre was heading towards back surgery, and anyway I just don't see Andre having the disposition to be a working travelling babyface world champ. JYD? I recall he was well liked by the fans, but not really taken seriously. Ditto Hillbilly Jim, who never really got his mojo back after breaking his leg. Tito Santana? The blue collar, working man, People's Champ, but I don't think people would have bought him with the big belt. Point being, if something had happened to Hogan at this point in history, an accident or severe injury or whatever, they didn't really have anybody in the position of near the top babyface to pick up the torch in his absence. Second level guys, friends of Hogan, but nobody who they could see the fans getting behind as top guy. They were lucky that when Hogan did take time off in 1988, Savage was in position to take the reins (even though the initial plans were supposedly for Dibiase to win the belt at WM IV, the change from Dibiase to Savage was sparked by Honky Tonk Man being upset at the plans for Savage to get a huge push after taking the IC title while he was left by the wayside), although this was probably not so much luck as planning. One option they might have tried could be keeping the belt on Piper for a while, either have him being chased by the other babyfaces in succession, using his status as a firebrand heel to feed the storyline of who will shut this loudmouth up while the WWF decides who they ultimately want to elevate; or turn him babyface and feud with the Heenan family, who will gloat how they were the ones who really took out Hogan and now they want the belt for themselves. Anyhow, thoughts?