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Everything posted by soup23
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One of those "what everyone else is doing" tags but a fan way to see how well the roster was constructed in CMLL at this point and why so far, it is easily my favorite promotion in January 2000. Nothing here was offensive at all and everyone got a chance to shine when needed. In some ways this is the perfect comparison to Kidman vs. Psicosis from a few days earlier of a tv action packed match. **3/4
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A really boss vignette to open up with Shocker showing Panther the Guapos lifestyle and the salon and him having nothing to do with it. Well, now we have our third great feud currently within CMLL. This is heated from the get go but reaches another gear when Panther drops Olimpico right on his dome with a hip toss. I can't imagine that was planned but it looked absolutely horrific and did add a wrinkle the rest of the way through with Casas fighting for his buddy. The rudo team was made to look dominant here as dispite Casas best efforts, he falls to them in the second fall. The Guapos team has the charisma and I hope Shocker can bring the goods in the ring to keep this feud hot. ***1/4
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Charles covered the housekeeping but I am so excited to be a part of this. Part of it is that this time period is so bizarre in that it feels like in some ways it happened last week and in some ways it is a different world. I really enjoy the fact that as we are seeing the clear shift in the stars of this decade wind down, we can see how they developed. Who looked the most polished early on? Who was a lost worker of this era? etc. I also think this entire decade isn't really vetted in discussion like the 1990's or 1980's which is kind of weird to think about but I feel you hear more talk and reviews nowadays about something like SNME #1 than the first ROH show. Maybe that has to do with the 2000's seemed to be a time of really segregated hardcores where you had the CZWFANS contingent, DVDVR contingent, Observer readers only, etc. I also think part of the issue is that some of the flag bearers of content in the era like Zack Arnold, Quebrada, etc are no longer around. Either way this is going to be a LONG journey but I am super pumped to see where it takes us.
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On the other side of the WCW spectrum is this storyline. Kimberly is the special referee and is supposedly having an affair with Buff. They are just friends though. These storylines never seem to work out because who are you supposed to cheer for. I am really interested to see if the Steph/HHH/Angle triangle holds up later this year as it may be the exception to the rule. Anyway, you can see Kimberley's G-string throughout the match and in a hilarious quip Bobby asks if she is wearing a slingshot. I'm shocked that both Heenan and Tony now have iconic calls this late into their WCW tenure. The guys brawl around a bit which is a nice structure for a hate feud but the crowd is perplexed. The finish is contrived as all hell as Kimberly runs into Buff in awkward fashion and when Buff goes to check on her, DDP hits the cutter for the win. It is implied that Kimberely helped him and is in on it but she scampers away as the show fades off the air. *3/4
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I may feel really guilty for saying this but I enjoyed this more than Kawada vs. Kobashi. Far too often, Nitro didn't open with hot cruiser action which goes against the narrative you hear. I think the reason that prevailing opinion exists in when matches like this do happen, they resonate. This didn't have an intricate storyline or deep development surrounding it but was Kidman and Psicosis going out there for 6-7 minutes and having a fun ass match to rile up the crowd. It was really successful and Kidman still has been presented as essentially the ace of the cruisers for almost a year now. For everything that was happening that night involving the radicals, this was a good spot for WCW to put their best foot forward with exciting in ring action. ***
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[2000-01-17-AJPW-New Year's Giant Series] Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi
soup23 replied to Loss's topic in January 2000
I love both of these guys but this disappointed me to a good degree. This made had a bit of restraint but still some head drops going on in the final third of the match. Up to that though, it just felt lifeless and they didn't do anything to reinvent or make things interesting. The Misawa vs. Kawada 7/99 match is disappointing but does show a different approach. This felt like a by the numbers Carnival match where they did some stuff and then went home. It even had some sloppiness mixed in. I got the same vibe when Kawada returned for injury vs. Hase at the Tokyo Dome so perhaps that is just him easing back into things, but this was about the basement level for these two and it is sad to me this was their last match together. ***- 15 replies
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- BOJ 2000s
- KAWADA WOTD
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Really interesting structure for the New Year Giant Series this year as they loaded up two cards in 1/7 and this 1/17 show relatively big but all of the huge stuff in planning was saved for the Excite Series in February. Big contrast to what they have done the past few years. We have also seen TC matches reduced in length with the Vader run but now it floats over to tags. This was a 14 minute match that had a brisk pace and never really could wear out its welcome due to the length. It was also the semi-main of a card that is fairly perplexing with No Fear in a throwaway six man. I was glad to see Taue have a spirited performance here after giving close to nothing in the 1/2 tag. The writing is one the wall with the hierarchy though as he takes the pinfall pretty easily here. I would have liked to have seen a bit more dissension in the Akiyama and Misawa team leading to their match next month. It also looked clear here that a big Vader vs. Akiyama match was being teased. Stuff seems to be a little all over the place a the moment All Japan booking wise and knowing the internal struggle, that makes a lot of sense. This was a good but ultimately inconsequential tag match that is good to see in retrospect for the tinkering of the overall structure and what a semi main tag match in AJ can contain. ***1/4
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My top 5: 1. Hashimoto/Iizuka vs. Ogawa & Murakami : Ratings are ratings and Big Dave is one man but it just feels so weird to me to see a match this heated and perfect at conveying the invading faction storyline only get **** at the time. 2. Kobashi vs. Akiyama : Was my #2 match of 2004 in Japan doing Ditch's list six years ago (time flies). 3. Nakamura vs. Ibushi: My first live WK and the most emotional I have been watching WK live. 4. Tanahashi vs. Naito 2017: Recency bias but I did think the match was super 5. Tanhashi vs. Okada 2016: Excessive???? Sure, but this was a capper to an iconic feud so I can excuse a lot of that. I also had not really liked their previous Dome output very much (especially 2013) so this was a great bounce back for them in my eyes.
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This was a great finish away from being a MOTYC. The ultimate F you on the way out by Benoit as he performed a great performance here taking an ass whipping and then leading one focusing around chopping the giant down and attacking Sid's leg. The way he set that up leading to Sid's comebacks was amazing and really had the crowd going nuts. Later era Tony is of course not great but he gets one more great call in with "hes going to win the DAMN match" when Sid chokeslams Benoit. Up to this point in 2000, a PG-13 on Saturday Night performance has been the most interesting thing so it was truly amazing how much gravity the wrestlers put into this match. Stuff like Arn's speech beforehand and the locker room emptying out artificially inflate that of course, but the work of the wrestlers especially Benoit made it ring true and not seem hollow. Finish allows WCW to have a cop out and the Nash promo at the end I certainly could do without as it pissed me the fuck off, but otherwise an amazing story driven match that showed Benoit could main event against any type of guy. ****1/4
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What a difference a week makes. Dragon Kid looked awful on the 1/8/00 tag and looked great here hitting everything almost flawlessly. There were some rough patches here with execution mainly from Tokyo which may be a reoccurring theme as we watch these matches. That being said, the hate was palpable and the action never let up leading this to be a fantastic six man tag with everyone getting moments to shine. CIMA still looks like a star on the rise and holds things together. I love watching Mochizuki and Fujii interact now and it was no different 17 years ago. Dragon Kid gets the win again showing his push continuing. Ultimo running out at the end was the most bad ass he has looked since he had the J Crown. I can't wait to see what happens next. ****
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[2000-01-16-GAEA] Lioness Asuka & Aja Kong vs Mayumi Ozaki & Akira Hokuto
soup23 replied to Loss's topic in January 2000
I read that review and thought, man Loss is being harsh, surely it isn't that bad. This IS that bad. I am amazed at the lack of hate, shitty weapon shots, no structure that occurred throughout this match. Just at a total loss of words. GAEA overall is a promotion that I had a ton of hype coming in on these projects. They have had highlights for sure but I haven't gotten the consistent promotion vibe from them yet. Maybe 2000 will provide it, but so far this was my least favorite thing we have seen in 2000 so far. * -
Much like Ace Darling and Suicide Kid, I realize how pioneering in some regards the Ballard Brothers are without ever being really intrigued by them. I think it deals with the late 90's and still around this time, the workers realized there was a way to push themselves and go beyond the spots customary to every indy show but they did have the athleticism or intuitiveness to put it all together. The Westside Playaz did have some moments sprinkled throughout where they played well together as a tag team but overall this was not a friendly reminder of what indies can be at points. *3/4
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JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s
soup23 replied to JerryvonKramer's topic in Megathread archive
Parv one upping the Terry Taylor = Jumbo Phil talking point is aces. -
Good review here even with the points I disagree (the purpose of the Okada neck work). I do think watching live clouded the opening moments a good deal. I rewatched the match yesterday right before my nap and enjoyed it more and the first 20 minutes weren't as LONG as watching live. I still think there was a ton of filler and Okada's back selling was pretty much moot which negates the match from reaching MOTYC level in my eyes, but waking up in the middle of the night and watching a 4 hour show only to have a 48 minute main event was a factor in me checking out early on. I think there is a good discussion over matches needing to feel long or necessary long to reach iconic status and that is an interesting debate that can question the rating system at a core value. For instance, I watched Cain Justice vs. Dirty Daddy from CWF-Mid Atlantic last night. That was a five minute sprint. Now, I would never argue that match was "better" than Okada vs. Omega but it was much more efficient in the fact that for me as a viewer, I got just as much satisfaction or enjoyment out of it as I did Omega vs. Okada. That may sound like a troll job but it is my honest takeaway and I think it proves how the truly iconic matches in peoples eyes have to reach on an emotional level where the justification sometimes boils down to "it is because it is."
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Some indies promote that way but not that many now. PWG, AAW, Rev Pro would be the biggest offenders. Beyond that, in 2016 indies like CWF-MA, Freelance, CZW and PROGRESS have pretty set rosters of main focal point guys and then book around the rest. I also disagree with calling this narrative "ROH" culture since ROH has been booked from day one around booking around core guys and now has exclusive contracts and individuals that rarely work elsewhere.
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Early Necro! Necro’s look here is odd as he has a biker bandana, shortish hair and facepaint. He kept that when I first saw him debut in IWA-MS in 2001. Bio Hazard jumps Necro at the bell and gives him a good once over. Nice height on the elbow drop for someone his size and he displays an okish dropkick. Necro sends Hazard to the outside and now we are in his domain. Senton from the apron and he is a garbage babyface with a headbutt and sends him into the railing. Necro grabs a chair and Hazard wisely realizes his best strategy is in the ring. Match plays that off with Hazard being able to take over inside with a suplex. The chair is inside the ring and with Necro neutralized, Hazard obliges in using it. Two brutal chairshots to the head have Necro woozy. Necros’ lightbulb bat is then used against him. On the outside Necro again is able to take advantage but Hazard shows that he is fresher and sends Necro into the post. Necro has a pretty good gusher now. Hazard retrieves a barbed wire garbage can. That gets boinked of Necro and the wire is spread out across the canvas. Necro gets hip tossed into that. Story of match is for sure how tough Necro is and he is back in control again. Necro gets a stop sign shot that Hazard didn’t seem to want to take hardly any part of. Hazard hits the drop toe hold into the chair and climbs to the top. Necro stops that and hits a leg drop with the stop sign to pick up the win. This was Necro’s debut and he immediately got himself over here. Fun Match. ***
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I will say context goes a long way for my disconnect that happens during live events. Twitter is a good median to feel a "part" of something while a live event is going on but stuff like "THIS MATCH" or "OMG" are really tough to gauge in the historical context. I'm sure this comes off even more foreign to someone not watching the show and if they scrolled a timeline and saw that type of rhetoric for 5 hours straight during the Wrestle Kingdom event. Another example is that again with the platforms of podcasts, articles, twitter, facebook, etc, the personality of the individuals comes into play. This can create a reaction where I am in the wrong and get frustrated for no good reason. For example, Joe Lanza from Voices of Wrestling talked during the World Tag League finals how he thought that was as good as any tag match in 2016. I thought it was a good match at best and projected that this was a persisting narrative when in reality once the reviews rolled in, Joe was essentially the only one that was THAT high on that match. That is a fault of mine in projecting others opinions based on one entity but it does feel like stable warfare sometimes where you are either a Dylan soldier or a Lanza soldier, etc.
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Without looking it up what were the best matches of 2014 or 2015? Can you rattle them off like we could for 89 or 92 or whatever?Can you do it for 1978? There's a fine line between some sort of universal resonance and nostalgia. We have people on this very board that could absolutely do it for 2006 or whatever, because that's their 1992. That said, part of the issue is that there's so much more of it now. Well, I mean *I* could do 78, I could probably do some 00s years too. But the thing is, loads of stuff I would name isn't stuff I watched when I was a kid, it's stuff I've seen in the past five years. And some stuff resonates *for me*. That Hero tag from evolve 53 which I think is the best US tag match in history and no one else cares about, Roman vs Brock, but I sometimes feel like I'm in a minority when I talk about modern stuff like that. I try to add to my own little pantheon of great matches, but it's weird. Chad tells me he has over 50 matches rated at 4+ for 2016, I wonder though if he'll still be talking about them in a few years. This is too tough a gauge. We have watched a ton of stuff that is rated highly for WTBBP (3.5+) and we don't spend endless amounts of time discussing them. I absolutely will be talking about the ***** matches I have from 2016 years down the road. LIke Clash 17 is for some, DIY vs. Revival eclipsed that for me and is an encapsulation of the Southern style tag formula. The saturation is a factor but while I don't see if on that level, people do talk about Tanahashi vs. Okada from 2016 still as an all timer and it is getting some discussion in year end stuff happening now. What is the arbitrary amount of time that stuff has to be discussed?
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If the Elix vs. Jindrak match was NXT esque, this was 205 live in a nutshell. A six minute match with nothing much of note and some flash mixed in. Horowitz is a good enough base but the Silver King nutty bumps were restrained for him. The crowd was sparse and sad and the sweetening that was added was 1991 WWF syndication levels of bad. *1/2
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Jindrak is doing a basketball gimmick. Weird to think that this was still airing on TBS now that we have really reached the doldrums of WCW as this is essentially an NXT match for them. Skipper looks good in this taking Jindrak's offense. Jindrak was fine here and had the size but is missing that gimmick or charisma change to really make him jump off the page. I was shocked to see Elix pick up the win. *3/4
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Probably the singular biggest peak guy now that we will track a ton through the 2000's is AJ Styles (apologies to CIMA, Tanahashi, Cena). Here we see the inkling of what made him a great worker. He was energetic, had good charisma and sold all of the midsection work well. The stomach work was intriguing and different from the form. Some of AJ's spots were still spotty and he needed editing but he seemed more polished here than what we saw of Punk and Cabana earlier. **1/2
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As far as the other show is concerned, I think Naito vs. Tanahashi was fantastic. A Tanahashi performance where he showed agression, focused limb work mixed in with character development like Naito spitting to confirm he is a prick, and a final stretch with enough selling to appease me as well as the right amount of big moves and kickouts/counters that happened in a logical way. I can see this being my New Japan MOTY to close out 2017 and that wouldn't be embarrassing at all. ****1/2 Shibata vs. Goto was a clubhouse leader for divisive opinions until the main event. It had some nonsense like Shibata sitting down wanting to be punted and pop ups from back suplexes but it also had a more hate feel and some sense of momentum swings than some of the other NEVER matches that are overhyped IMO like Ishii vs. Shibata from last year. Shibata seems poised to start his acceleration up the card now that he is free of the NEVER title. ***3/4 Hiromu vs. KUSHIDA had some sloppy moments but really worked as a narrative and I think the pace was presented how the main event should had went. Hiromu is a crazy man and therefore takes some wicked chances. With the sloppiness, they looked rough at points but that did enhance the out of control feel in a certain way. KUSHIDA is able to work over the arm in painful fashion and that allows him to have a fighting chance and also neutralize Hiromu. Final again showed some good restraint with Hiromu winning on a flash big move and gaining the IWGP Jr Title. ****1/4 The rest of the show was fine. I felt nothing really clicked until the final stages and there isn't that transcendent ***** match like Funk vs. Flair from GAB 89 for me to put the show in the all timer category. Still an easy thumbs up for New Japans biggest show of the year and well worth a watch.
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The main event is on par with being one of the more polarizing matches of all time based on initial twitter reaction. As someone that doesn't mind long matches and epics of the storytelling, the 47 minute run time is not a net negative for me. I also for the record ranked Omega vs. Naito from the G-1 at ***** and had an emotional connection with that. I preface all of that by saying that I am really perplexed with the heaps and heaps of praise this match is receiving. Make no mistake, everything from the diving moonsault onward was pretty fantastic. Kenny Omega craves being the best wrestler in the world and no risk is too insane for him to take to accomplish that goal. With Okada ultimately winning, it was effective to save things for later like the One Winged Angel since this should be a match that people will go back to time and time again. However, all of that doesn't negate the fact that the first 15-20 minutes of this match were nothing. You didn't get much in the way of focused limb work or the telling of a negative of the risk taker vs. the controlled ace in Okada. The table teasing was nicely done but the last image before this match was Okada being viciously put through a table by the heel faction Bullet Club, why is he starting the match out as any other IWGP defense with a feeling out process? Something felt amiss and it really took Kenny almost literally breaking his neck for me to become invested in the final moments at all. Leading into the show, most seemed to be in agreement that an Omega win was the right move. I again didn't see anything from Okada throughout this match that led me to believe he should have won so that makes the end result questionable as well. He showed some reserve but also was inconsistent in his emotions going for the table early on, hitting the crossbody but then weathering the onslaught of Omega in the final stages. I talked about the issues I had with Tanahashi vs. Okada from the G-1 and why I thought it was insane that it received ***** when things like the wrong leg was worked over for portions of the match. This match is in that same lineage. What was brought to the table here that was so extreme that it aspired the apex of wrestling as a match overall? As we have seen in the puro vs. lucha debate, there is a great divide and I have seen ratings for Lupus vs. Trauma in the **** that I respect even though I disagree with them. That is where I stand on this particular match. The opening was too inconsequential that the epic final half couldn't totally forgive it.