Death From Above

Seriously, the "Japanese fans are quiet" talking point is bullshit, or at least it was at one point. Things have slowed down but even so fans will get excited when they are given something to get excited over. You'd really have to stretch to find a US crowd that was, from start to finish from entrances through conclusion of the segment, as hot as the crowd for either the 1977 or 1979 Real World Tag League finals (which are probably the hottest major crowds I've seen that didn't result in a genuine riot). Both of which involved four foreigners oddly enough. And really the whole history of big matches during years when Japan was hot blow the concept out of the water. I've always found it a really weird talking point. I guess I get where the online fans get it, but at the same time the only people I hear inside the business that bring it up are guys that were used over there as midcard talent and for whatever reason never became anything big. Kamala says All Japan fans were quiet... I'm not sure Stan Hansen would really agree.

"Smother him. WITH HIS OWN DAMN ARM~!" (I'm pretty sure that line was in wrestling with shadows, and that I didn't just imagine it.)

Seriously, why does anybody pay this company any attention? It's like a parody of pro wrestling run by the dumbest smart marks on earth. Aside from it's sticom value of course. I mean you put a laugh track over their show, I will watch no problem.

I like both stuffing and potatoes.

Yeah it's more "psychotic" than "nutty". It's a stupid thing to say, but at least it has some beleivable foundation in reality. "I am so mad at my wife I could pull an OJ", that's more beleivable than "Yeah Vince wanted me to come main event Wrestlemania in 2009". So in that sense it's not "nutty" compared to some of his stuff, more just: It is indeed a classic. Let's hope it remains as comedy and doesn't become one of those "shit, I giggled at what two years ago" moments.

I've never heard anyone outside of wresling message boards ever mention that the Inoki/Ali fight exists. I'm sure it's a "historical" deal in Japan that more causal followers would know, but on a worldwide level Inoki/Ali doesn't really mean anything, because no one outside of hardcore wrestling fans, or the Japanese, will acknowledge it even happened. And even if you get it acknowledged, the boxing world (who last time I checked have had plenty of pull in the media for a long time, and certianly had a massive amount in Ali's time) would never have acknowledged it as a shoot, "well yeah he fought a PRO WRESTLER and lost WINK WINK" would have been the path. Boxing is still trying to sell people on MMA being a low brow kind of "dirty fighting" vs. Boxing as the "sweet science", because it's a promotional tactic that appeals to a (dwindling) section of fans that believe in the sport as a whole. There's absolutely no way a pro wrestler beating Ali wouldn't have been buried in the media a thousand different ways no matter how legit it actually was. Even if Inoki had won, I think you'd have a hard time convincing the general public that "some pro wrestler" beat Ali in a legit fight. Fans who didn't know any better would just blow it off as bullshit even if it wasn't because that's exactly what they would have been fed. Pro wrestling is bullshit, so a pro wrestler beating Ali must thus also be bullshit. It's flawed logic but it's a very easy path to get people to walk down. It would have been a prime example of people teling a lie enough that it became accepted as fact by the general public. EDIT: Should have read John's post first I guess, he basically says the same thing there. Well two points are better than one I suppose.

The thing that really gets me about HHH is that, even workrate stuff aside, his look and his interviews and really even his angles... it's exactly the same fucking thing, forever and ever. The character as a whole is so stale it's completely ridiculous, even by WWE's ability to drag things on years past relevance. I mean for the love of Pete, forget HHH/Hogan workrate smart fan issues, at least Hogan dramatically updated his gimmick after a decade or two when it had got so stale that it was dead. Hogan and HHH both have massive egos but Hogan was at least smart enough to do something different if for no other reason than (in his own mind) secure his legacy as the man further. At that point his wrestling was in terrible decline and he'd lost that "acceptable pop single" ability with Hulkamania (that falls into my "WWE is the pop music of pro wrestling" metaphor), but he breathed some new life into himself by going Hollywood. HHH as a wrestling character has never done anything remotely close to as dramatic as the nWo turn. Instead we got a rehashed DX with him and Shawn playing "40-something going on 15" and really it was like watching an 80's rock band reunite to go on tour but fail to do a wardrobe/hairstyle/stage prop update. There are good '80's rockband reunions, and bad '80's rockband reuinions. HHH pulled off the metaphor for the second and seems content to basically do so forever. I'll listen to the same song if I liked it in the first place, but at least give me the impression you know what year it is. Otherwise (and to rip off a line TomK used recently on Chikara to the IRE AND WRATH of Chikara marks) what you're doing isn't a new tour, it's a tour that attracts the fetishists of their youth. "Wow that was a great look back then, at least for one night I can be among my own kind". I don't know what appeal HHH has for fans anymore, except people still wanting to party like it's 1999. There are lots of characters that go stale in wrestling and never change so in a sense targeting HHH for that is unfair, but most of those people drift away and become nothing (either into midcard positions, or into other companies back when there were other companies). Obviously with where he's positioned that isn't going to happen, so it seems like a more valid criticism than usual.

I have no explanation why Akiyama gets talked about and put on the ballot, and Taue doesn't. Neither man is a "draw" in the hall of fame sense, and Taue's match catalogue probably destroys Akiyama. Yeah Akiyama has headlined NOAH, but he's headlined it to nowhere. Taue is one of those guys people have told the "he sucks/he was that guy with Kawada" lie so many times that people fooled themselves into thinking it's true. And it's not even like it's a good lie with a founding in reality. It's a batshit crazy lie. Maybe Taue is the Japanese Backlund. I haven't seen enough of pre-Hogan WWF to draw any conclusions on Bob's work as the closest to prime Backlund I have seen is his first match with Takada (I don't even think I've seen the match/matches against Inoki). but there's clearly been a turnaround on him as well from a portion of the online community. Kind of like how really a few years ago, nobody outside of maybe a *really* select group acknowledged Fujiwara at all (I can't remember his name coming up in a discussion either positive or negative on Zach Arnold's old forums even once in something like 5 years, as an example), but there was a quantifiable shoot fan base that would give you the "Takada as best wrestler of all time" arguement.

Hmm that's a good point. The Road Warriors were not big on pain unless it was dishing it out. Nor was Warrior. IZU has a hard head and sometimes brought the facepaint. And Kamala would be in several categories then. For a minute it makes you think about adding a "guys with facepaint" category, but then there's the whole Stalker Ichikawa thing and that flies out the window. I can't address the cultural differences between Japan and the US. As an outsider, there are things I will NEVER UNDERSTAND.

Well, I will float out the theory that this has something to do with the hardness of head scale that all wrestling fans of course know. ;-) (Unnoficial rankings from the World Wrestling Council) 1- Samoans 2- Giants 3- Fat people 4- Black guys 5- Non-fat heavyweights 6- Non-heavyweights

Yeah that's pretty good. In every form of fiction, there are established "rules for the universe" that you lay as the groundwork. Whether they exist in reality or not really doesn't mean fuck all, but when you operate within the confines of a fantasy universe, it's good to at least stick to the rules of your own universe. I think probably *every* generation of wrestlers and wrestling's smart fans have argued this, but it does seem to me that somewhere wrestling pitched it's own reality rules out the window and got lazy "well it's all fake anyway, fuck this let's do it the lazy way". Sammartino-era fans probably thought the same thing about the Hogan era, Thesz era fans about whoever, etc. Wrestling has this weird quality of re-inventing it's own rules of the universe every few years which is probably why so many fans are drawn to one era specifically (usually but not always the one they grew up with). Part of that is the gradual movement from wrestling being portrayed as once upon a time as a shoot into raw entertainement (which off the top of my head is unique to pro wrestling) but there seems more to it than just that. I'm sure there are other examples but the "re-inventing your own universe" thing seems to apply more in wrestling than other things which come to mind for me.

Oh man that clip is fun. Being DQ'd for a bodyslam into the river is pretty high on the all time ridiculous wrestling referee logic scale.

I kind of agree with that, myself. I mean it's an offensive term but it's from a source where it's hardly unexpected. MMA is a "jock sport". MMA having a generalized "problem" with homosexuals is hardly surprising or really worthy of comment. There's never been a gay man in the NFL or the NHL, either. That's the surface story and most of the club is sticking to it. ;-)

Article on Stan Hansen, and his sons on playing baseball: http://www.wacotrib.com/news/content/sport...wachansens.html Was Andre even billed as this big back in his heyday or has the legend only grown onwards since he died? What match is this? Somebody gimmie.

Everyone is in love with Steamboat at the moment, which is probably exactly why he should stop now. It's one of the basic rules of showmanship, leave them wanting just a little bit more. "You could have played one more year/you had one good match left in you" and all that. This would be a great feel-good time for Steamboat to get out, which is probably exactly what he had planned all along.

Congratulations on the book.

Do people get paid anything like an appearance fee for getting put in the WWE hall of fame? Just wondering. I mean in the back of my mind I have this weird idea that someone told Vince "hey Koko B Ware could use a couple bucks" and Vince had one of his moments where he actually was nice to people. I dunno that's probably nonsense, but the thought did cross my mind. I don't think they like show threads there until shows are over. I seem to remember a decree about that some time back, because threads would get pages and pages of "Wow" "ooof" "what a bump" and "oh my god" posts at a time that made it hard slogging trying to read. I guess that's probably why there isn't one there. It does seem like a Wrestlemania that even the hardcore fans would really pass on, except it's Mania so you watch it because it's there.

Watts was a racist but he also wasn't an idiot and was at least willing to put it aside if it made him money. In that sense he's a really interesting character, in that everyone and their dog says Watts is a racist, but he's also the guy that ran with Butch Reed as his top star, and ran Kamala vs. JYD because it made him huge amounts of money. Kamala for one according to his shoot interview thought relativly highly of Watts compared to every other promoter he worked for because whatever his issues with race were, Watts was still the only major promoter in the country that was willing to pay out big money to black wrestlers, and was able to seperate his personal feelings from his ability to do big business. Watts loved money more than anything else and he wasn't eough of a mark to let anything get in the way of that. I'm not saying that excuses any of his opinions, but if I was going to point to a promoter that had issues with blacks in wrestling Bill Watts isn't the guy I'd use. As for Watts and the Jews, I don't know. I know him and Paul never got along from moment 1 that they met. But it is an interesting article all the same.

I've split buying two WWE PPV's in my life as usually I never see the shows live, and Invasion was one of them, so that says something for how hot the entire concept of the WWF vs WCW war's final chapter was. I kind of scratch my head in hindsight at the Dudleys being part of one of two PPV angles in history hot enough to catch my interest on that level. I mean really, it's not like everyone didn't *want* the thing to work. Austin turning heel seemed the only logical conclusion to the main event in advance (at least among the us there that night). The whole concept of WWF vs WCW was so big I think a lot of us just convinced ourselves there was no way it could not turn out good, when in reality there was so much personal bullshit involved there was probably no way it was going to be up to expectations given the personalities involved.

That interview was one hell of a read. Thanks for posting the whole thing. The stuff about his early career is fascinating too. I find it hard wrapping my head around sending a guy out there that you've trained (or I guess in the case of Stu Hart, some guy you beat the shit out of in your basement a lot), and he hasn't even been smartened up to the business being a work yet. So he has to find it out from Abby. Wrestling really is the wackiest business of all. Sad, but pretty fucking accurate.

Yeah the no-selling got so berserk in Japan. It really killed it for me and did a lot to hurt my interest. There's a reason the only two things I've done with watching wrestling in 2 years were a 1990's AJPW project and the 80's Mid South Ballot (both time well spent). I was also just recently rewatching some 2003-ish Kobashi and it really stunned me how Lex Luger Version 2.0 he was even then, let alone what he must be like now. I mean I watched a Tanahashi/Nagata vs. Honda/Kobashi GHC tag title match and there's literally not one Kobashi sequence in that match that isn't stolen from Luger, as long as you substitue "10 punches in the corner" with "Kobashi chops in the corner". Everything else in that match is pure Luger. I remember reading a very long post at DVDVR once detailing the horror of the amount of raw work he had done on his knees over something like 2 years, so he has every excuse, but still. A lot of Kobashi's work in this decade is not going to age very favourably.

In-form sarcastic Meltzer is tremendous. I can totally see that ending up going around the WWE locker room behind the boss' back drawing laughs, only for Vince to find out then have one of his I HATE THE INTERNETZ NOBODY TALK TO THEM ON THREAT OF DEATH aneurysms that he goes on from time to time. Someone should send it to Jim Ross. The Vile, Hateful Jim Ross thread will probably gain another page.

If it was a Vampiro/Sting WCW throwback, they need a promo where Shawn starts calling The Undertaker "Mark" to stress the depth of their out of character friendship, then tries to set the ropes on fire... but they don't light and everyone starts booing. Ah, memories.

WWE desperately needs some fresh blood but now they are really seeing the effect of more or less anihilating all their legitimate competition. I think we're really starting to see the effect of what having one real national company with a huuuuuge gap underneath it for a long term period of time actually means to their ability to do anything fresh. WWE has never been that great at internally developing talent in the "we train you from the begining of your career, we bring you up, you spend your whole career with us" kind of sense. Even guys that "made it" there such as Undertaker or Kevin Nash or Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels weren't coming up through some sort of internal WWE developmental program. They've always been the masters of the free agent signing. And in some cases like Austin it was more of a "thow shit at the wall and see what sticks" kind of signing as opposed to some master plan to make people that big. There are exceptions when it comes to internally manufacturing stars, but when you look at who they are: Angle, Lesnar, Lashley, and The Rock (who didn't "start" in WWE technically but it was his first "significant" company) would be the four recent history prominent examples that come to mind, and are all guys they actually did pretty much build from the ground up, and they are all out of wrestling except Angle. I don't know what that says exactly, but it is... odd. (I guess you could also make the tongue in cheek arguement that Angle being in TNA means he's out of wrestling too, but I won't go there.) HHH, Orton, Cena, probably a Batista appearance, Jericho, JBL, Mysterio, Edge, Undertaker, Michaels... These are your headliners, more or less. Is there a fresh matchup available between *any* of them that makes any sense at all to be running? I guess Orton vs. Batista is coming and that could have some life to it. Aside from that, it's pretty much all been done many times over hasn't it? WWE has had periods where they struggled for main event matchups before, but then they at least had the option of lucking into something like Steve Austin, a guy I don't think they really had big plans for initially but because the competition was there, the opportunity to sign him and fluke into it was there too. The industry hurting as a whole is hurting their ability to produce new big business just as much as it is hurting everyone else. You can't have the same 8 people main event 2 major TV shows and 12 PPV a year for a decade and not have it go stale. I don't care if it's chocolate cake, you don't eat it every day.

I am going to have great difficulty shaking this image. YARR YARR I'M A PIRATE LINDA COME AND GET ME