Death From Above

Yeah. You don't even need the Tough Enough example, even though it's right there. The concept of a wrestling promoter that changed the idea of a basic gimmick in the business (at least in his own version of the universe) from "Virgil Runnels plays an exaggerated version of himself named Dusty Rhodes, Terry Funk plays a slightly crazier version of a guy named Terry Funk" etc. into "Let's hire Glen Jacobs and cast him in a role as a walking dead person's long lost brother who was left to die in a fire when they were both children and is now back with supernatural powers" and 10 000 other examples of similar gobldegook, and is now pissed off about people "exposing the business", is pretty awesome. I mean there's always been a degree of gobldeygook in wrestling gimmicks, especially with "foreign" wrestlers. Kamala is the ooga booga man from the African jungle, etc. But WWF/E under Vince has never even tried to keep gimmicks grounded in believability. Not that I'm saying that everyone believed Kamala really was some ooga booga tribesman from somewhere in Africa, and I'm not here to discuss the merits of whether promoting that is good, bad, or unimportant in the big picture, but even an old school "outlandish" gimmick like Kamala is pretty tame compared to exploding yourself in a limosuine, having matches where the goal is to bury the other person alive, zombie wrestlers with long lost demented brothers, Cactus Jack showing up and suddenly being "disfigured" with a claw hand for no reason with a random new name and look (because wrestling outside of the WWF/E universe doesn't happen in Vince's mind so whatever gimmick you spent years working on dies with rare exceptions like Flair) etc. The changing gimmicks point wouldn't have been so exposing 30 years ago in the territory days and pre-national television or pre-internet, but after the era of national TV started you'd have to be lost not to notice that it's a credibility killer, if wrestling needed any more by that point. And let's not even discuss the "invisible camera" that allows us to peer into "backstage happenings" as if we're somehow supposed to not view that as business exposing. I mean Vince is great at making money, obviously, but he never really grasped pro wrestling in terms of "exposing the business" which is what makes all that profit all the more amazing. Bischoff makes some valid points but as always it's lost in the shuffle of Bischoff being incapable of speaking without sounding like a message board troll.

God I totally missed the TomK compares Angle to Whitney Houston thing the first time around. How did I miss that? That made me laugh so hard. This is also my favourite quote about the entire history of TNA. It sums up so much of everything the company represents in a nutshell.

This is an old DVDVR thread with a ton of Meltzer quotes on WCW from (somewhere around) the beginning of the real spiral until the end. It's long but it's one of my all time favourites and it's always good for some nostalgic laughs. I really did enjoy WCW in a perverse "this is actually happening" way. http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/index.php?showtopic=294 I swear I went through them once and actually did an MS Word file where I put them all in chronological order, as this jumps around from one period to another somewhat, but I can't find it. It's hilarious reading though as clearly there are periods that Meltzer is on the verge of pulling out a handgun and giving some mercy to his television. I mean right off the bat we are already into: And the WCW wacky train is off and rolling.

I love YouTube so much.

I'm pretty sure that Abby tape had a North American release at some point, because I have an old VHS bootleg of it. Got it years ago but I couldn't tell you who it was from or where he got it. I think it had a different title here though (or at least it was billed to me under a different title at the time). IIRC the Abby/Bravo match was in All Japan, not New Japan, but that's a very small quibble. There's also a pull apart brawl somewhere on that tape from the Montreal footage with Dan Kroffat and a very young Toshiaki Kawada running around as ring seconds, which is why I remember the Bravo/Abby match being in All Japan.

Wow. Jim Ross really *is* a grouchy vile hateful human being. I mean it's not even directed anger anymore about anything you could even define as coherent, it's like watching an alzheimers patient just unleash random outbursts about how the soup was the wrong temperature today.

I always thought the quote was a Jerry Lynn burial myself. And Whitmer, but honestly he's not even an afterthought. ROH has never meant a fucking thing to me outside of the odd American Dragon match, or Paul London back in the day.

The Road Warriors looked completely terrified they were going to die the whole time, as I recall.

It was really hard to see the latest round of post-PPV Impact spoilers on DVDVR and not instantly think of this thread, because really read as some rancid TV in the extreme.

lol

Hell I know newspapers that have done that on the reader's letter page, that tactic is only one fifth of the way on the carny scale.

Okay, I just need to highlight that and scratch my head a little. And yeah knowing nothing about Don Owen, I have to ask. Was Don Owen like the Ian Rotten of his day or something?

As wrong as it is this comment just breifly rekindled my love of Japanese wrestling. Oh Inoki, you're so crazy.

Vince McMahon shrugged off a terrorist bombing on his car for the love of the business. Vince McMahon has the strong heart. Like I said. Vince must have the strong heart. That which does not kill him makes him stronger. I don't know if he's quite reached Keith Richards level of living drug embalmment to reach immortality yet, but he's got to be close.

Let me make it clear I don't agree with it either, but at least that came off as a coherent reason that made sense, or at least probably makes good sense from Meltzer's point of view.

This is actually the first time I've read Dave's full blown explanation for the "PRIDE = Pro Wrestling" poisition which has always been torn to shreds on most forums that I've seen. I'm not saying I agree with his final stance, but I will say that makes more sense than it ever has anywhere else I've heard it discussed (and none of those other discussions included Dave defending himself). Probably a very minor point to most poeple, but I'd love to hear more about Tenryu's SWS. Meltzer mentions the Road Warriors vs. Tenryu/Hogan match doing a $2.1 million gate. I don't know a lot about SWS other than it didn't last very long, and has a reputation of being a massive flop and I was always under the impression it lost a lot of money. A $2.1 million gate suggests you would think it must have been making some money, at least at one point. But if there's anyone with knowledge to share on that company I'd love to read it.

I like the '80 tag league final much better than the 1978 incarnation between the same two teams which obviously isn't part of the 80's project. The '78 one really plods by comparison, there's really no sense that it will be anything but a 45 minute draw in 78 where as in 80 they work in lots of doubt. My only big problem with the 1980 version is that the kneedrop off the top should have led directly to the finish. Terry down on the floor, Baba/Jumbo double team Dory, win. But instead we get a red herring and then one of the seven billion countout finishes that you see in All Japan in that era. Pinning Dory clean in the context of Terry having one of his seizures on the floor wouldn't have hurt anybody.

Zach has predicted the death of Japanese wrestling at least once a year publicly since the death of Baba. I used to go to his forums long ago (I think his own site is actually dead now) but he's just the most negative person in the universe. He killed his own site through his constant negativity as eventually no one wants to listen to it anymore. Japanese wrestling has shrunk but it's hardly dead. If you listen to Zach Arnold, New Japan should have folded 4 times over already. I think both Japan and Mexico should probably have a breif subsection, something like just a quick bullet point rundown of a few important happenings. If people want to get more on those things, the information is out there. And there's going to be a chunk of your audience that doesn't care about those things at all so you probably don't want to fill too much with it. But an acknowledgement of it isn't a bad idea.

This was the most fun I can remember having with US wrestling probably since I was in high school and the Monday Night Wars made actual regular conversation among normal people. Definitely some of the best shorter matches I can remember seeing, personally. And yeah Dick Murdoch is so awesome. I was going to nitpick and re-rank a bunch of stuff but, eh, a few matches in to that everything that my first impressions told me was holding firm and I'm as confident in my first impressions to know what I like as anyone, so I sent my ballot in.

Yeah old thread but interesting questions so I'm answering anyway. (1) What do you ultimately think Vince McMahon will most be remembered for as a promoter? WWF (even years after becoming WWE) is still the term in standard western English that non-wrestling fans use to describe "pro wrestling" as a shorthand. So clearly his vision of the business has dominated in terms of public perception. As a promoter, that's an incredible achievement in itself. "WWF" and maybe at some point "WWE" have become terms in the common english language that anyone that hears them knows what it is even if they don't watch, and large masses of people that use that term have no idea the business exists outside of those three letters. That's no small accomplishment of scope. What he'll be remembered for is as "the guy who ran WWF", which to the mainstream = boss of all pro wrestling. (2) What do you think is the most important positive change that has come from the WWE vision of what pro wrestling is? Probably bringing it as far into the mainstream of entertainment as it's going to ever come. I suppose one can debate if pro wrestling in one form or another is really any "worse" a form of entertainment than the bad end of Hollywood or the manufacturing of pop superstars that can't sing, write, or play an instrument. Wrestling's never going to gain "respectablilty" (and really, it probably never should) but at least it's gained a degree of "acceptability" within the mindset of the general public where yes, it's kind of stupid but everyone knows someone that's a fan. People like Donald Trump and Floyd Mayweather woudln't touch even an event of Wrestlemania's scope if that hadn't been achieved. (3) What do you think is the most important negative change that has come from the WWE vision of what pro wrestling is? Basically, I think WWE's vision is a neutered version of what North American wrestling should be (from my uppity smart fan perspective). Again, the pop music comparison. WWE is the pop music of pro wrestling. Once in a while you get a hit single that is nice, but large chunks are really complete shit, but are consumed by masses that really don't care one way or the other as long as they get their fill. I respect that it makes for good business, but it isn't my choice for personal consumption. In my opinion the company has a low bar for work. (4) What is something that you have always felt WWE does well that they don't get enough credit for? Probably just the fact that the company hasn't totally flown apart at the seams over the last 25 years, and continues to be heavily profitable. When you look at the history of wrestling this is rare enough. When you also add in the status of being the only genuinely global company and all the added baggage that brings, I think it makes that more impressive. (5) What is something that you have always felt WWE does horribly that they don't get enough criticism for? There are so many points you can bring up here I guess. So because a lot has already been touched on I'll take on something different and say they basically were a mass contributor to the death of the psychology of the referee. It's a small point to some and it probably isn't even their biggest offense or anything, but it never gets talked about so I'll take it on. Really, referees (on a global scale with not many exceptions) are now just automotons that stand there, get KO'd at the drop of a hat, and are generally portrayed as the most fragile bunch of retards on earth. Watching the Mid South Watts set, a LOT of people have shit all over Tommy Gilbert as a referee. Where as I see him being actually mostly fantastic, but he referees the "old way" where referees still behaved like, you know, referees in any other sport, with some authority and you're not going to KO him just by looking at him funny (even when refs bump in Mid South they are almost never down longer than 30 seconds). And I think really fans that have only seen the "new way" misinterpet actual good refereeing for "being in the way", but I don't drink the Kool-Aid on that one. The referee in modern pro wrestling is meaningless, and WWF/E was the company I can peg as starting that slide. It is a minor thing to quibble over but it's not something I've really seen addresed much. I never even thought about it myself until watching the Stan Hansen shoot interview once, they asked him about the switch from 1980's AJPW with a lot of DQ's and countouts, and it was like Baba literally flipped a switch one day and countouts and DQ's were off the table. And Hansen commented that he felt it didn't really help the show because you've killed the psychology of the referee "you can go out of the ring and he can count to 1000 if he wants, you know it's not going to mean anything". It's a symptom of the larger problem of wrestling becoming all about popping the crowd and less about trying to put on a semi-believeable form of redneck theatre. And I'm not really sure you've gained anything doing it. (6) Overall, do you think most people are fair when discussing WWE, or do you think people tended to be blinded -- either by fanboyism or hatred? Being fair about something so large and well known is nearly impossible. WWE internet marks are insufferably thick, but so are a lot of their haters. Staying objective is pretty rare. The same thing happens in debates about Led Zeppelin or Quentin Tarantino: you know before it starts it's going to get really fucking stupid, both ways. (7) What match would you point to as the match that most defines the WWE version of wrestling? Am I totally crazy for wanting to say HHH vs Undertaker from Wrestlemania X7? Over the top characters, a big band playing an entrance, big use of props, wild match, all that stuff, and still a pretty fun match as part of an absurdly fun show. Really it's about as "sports entertainment" as anything I can imagine. (8) Could the WWF have had their initial success without Hulk Hogan? Why or why not? Probably not. The burst into the mainstream required somebody to be the face of it. Hulk Hogan was that face, and for all the piles of criticism you can make of Hogan, I think his charisma was for a time a special thing that WWF did need to get to the next level. I don't think that if you put (as examples) Savage, Dibiase, Steamboat, Duggan, or whoever else they had over Andre at Wrestlemania III that it leads to mass success. That's assuming the company even lasts to Wrestlemania III, as I seem to remember reading that Vince basically banked everything he had on Wrestlemania 1 (I'm not toally certain if that's true or not). (9) Could the WWF have been more financially successful in the post-Hogan, pre-Austin time period with different people on top? Why or why not? I'm not really sure it would have made a ton of difference if things had been somewhat different. As a (young) fan at the time, I still enjoyed a good chunk of that period quite a bit, even if it didn't draw en masse. Maybe if they'd had Flair through that time to go along with Bret and Shawn it makes a difference, but I'm not going to bank on it because I doubt Vince would have used Flair the way the NWA did even if Hogan wasn't around. So overall I say no. (10) Who do you think was a bigger star at their peak -- Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin? Hogan is by far the more world famous, I don't think it's even remotely close. There was probably a point at Hulkamania's peak when you could have made a case for Hogan being one of the 10 most recognizable celebrities in the world. People who haven't watched wrestling ever in the last 30 years know Hogan's name. Austin isn't famous on that level. (11) What do you think is Vince McMahon's greatest accomplishment as a promoter? Just the scope of what he's taken wrestling to, again. The major multinational cable, the PPVs, the worldwide brand recognition, it's all part of one collective about Vince becoming a self-made billionaire (or high multi-millionaire). You don't have to like his show to respect it's been good business. And in the process I guess what I'm going for is "name recognition". In the same way that whenever people discuss boxing, inevitably for better or worse Don King comes up, Vince's greatest accomplishment is that whenever anyone discusses pro wrestling, fan or not eventually WWE comes up (or in many cases, is seen as the entire business). (12) What do you think was the greatest contributing factor to WCW overtaking the WWF from 1995-1998? WWF being stuck in a stale, comic book formula that was burned out with fans. Combined with a large talent defection, and the sudden burst on the scene of national competition, WWF was caught asleep at the creative wheel. Basically the "cartoony bullshit" answer from above. (13) What do you think was the greatest contributing factor to the WWF overtaking WCW in 1998? WCW being the worst run managerial clusterfuck this side of the solar system as far as wrestling goes. From everything I heard about the internal workings of the company, the sheer scope of money being funneled down the tubes, and the amount of political infighting because the inmates were running the asylum, I think a collapse at some point was inevitable even if they had, say, got the Hogan/Sting blowoff right or even made Godlberg into the new Hogan without blowing it. At some point the sheer weight of backstage problems both in management and with the talent were going to bring down the Titanic. There are lots of things you can criticise McMahon in terms of the show he puts on and what you like or don't like about it, but he simply ran a much better ship than WCW was running. (14) Which world champion was the best in terms of ring work and why? I have to asterisk this (and all the following specific worker related questions). I haven't watched WWE in years, since the WCW invasion angle period: I missed, for example, Eddie Guerrero's whole run as champion, and believe it or not I've never even seen an entire John Cena match, ever. At this point I still follow all the company politics and such but don't watch anymore. I'll go with Bret Hart. I was a huge Hitman mark as a kid, and I thought in general his matches were of a consistant level that seemed to deliver in the ring to me at the time. There's a huge chunk of it I haven't watched since I was a kid, but he certainly *seemed* like the best at the time. Even if it didn't draw. (15) Which world champion do you think meant most to the company? Hogan. Nothing that comes after Hogan means anything if Hogan doesn't come first. (16) Which world champion had the worst run? Kevin Nash/Deisel seems a safe answer. (17) What do you consider the high point in WWF or WWE history? Wrestlemania X7. It's true, sports entertainment done right can be massively entertaining to watch. (18) What do you consider the absolute low point in WWF or WWE history? From a wrestling/angle standpoint: Take your pick from a number of things that were being done in the attitude era before WCW decided that Vince Russo knew something about wrestling. Not a business lowpoint, but they ran some angles that led me to really question if I wanted to be watching pro wrestling (or their version of it as I was getting into Japanese stuff by then). Examples such as the Terri Runnels gets shoved off the apron miscarriage angle, the Steve Austin holds Vince hostage and theatens to shoot him with a gun on national TV only to have it pop out a BANG! flag and Vince "pees himself" on the air... stuff like that. I mean, nobody is saying wrestling is high art but some of it was so tasteless it made me uncomfortable to watch, and I basically switched to being primarily a Nitro viewer for a time. From a much bigger picture standpoint of real significance: Owen Hart's death. Benoit's was pretty awful as well. (19) Looking at things from their point of view, why do you think WWE frowns on employees being big wrestling fans? I guess Vince is operating under the idea of not wanting people who can't see the forest through the trees, I guess just wanting an outside perspective that can try and tap into other markets of fnas. I don't really know though, I think it's a really fucking dense policy myself. (20) Do you think the WWF has ever done a good job at booking tag teams in a meaningful way? If so, what time period? I think they've built up some teams at points that are "well received" as a unit, but booking them in a meaningful way, not really. Tag team specialists have always been portrayed as being job fodder by comparison to a top singles worker, and nobody ever makes it big without the tag team split. And if you do get a superteam of two top singles workers, they always make a point to put over how they are both still top singles workers that just happen to be doing the tag team thing. (21) What is the best non-main event feud the company has ever produced and why? I'm really drawing a blank on a "great" non-headlining feud that made me really care for longer than it took me to change the channel. Hardys vs. Edge/Christian in the TLC matches and others, I guess? I dunno. At least it was a feud built around (pseudo, ladder based) wrestling and beating the crap out of each other and respect and toughness and all that good stuff. Not some stupid thing that had nothing to do with wrestling at all. (22) What is the worst main event level feud the company has ever produced and why? Undertaker vs. Undertaker was seriously awful on pretty much any level you want to name. (23) What do you think was the single biggest contributing factor that caused the end of the 1998-2001 boom? Loss of big stars with the fact that crash TV gets really, really old after a while, and a bust was inevitable. But mainly the number of big names that said bye-bye. (24) From your personal experiences, is the WWF a company that delivers house shows where you feel you get your money's worth? Not really, it's never been a company built around great wrestling so you take all the TV glitz and angles away and what's really left? I haven't watched them in any format for years, and they bring pretty much nothing to the table that makes me think I'm punishing myself by missing out on the things that make wrestling tick for me. I think I went to three house shows, and really they had nothing from a wrestling perspective I couldn't get for like $10 at a Prarie Wrestling Allicane show. There's no question which of the two options gives me more in ring bang for my buck. (25) Where do you think they'll be in five years? Unless there's a massive change in the competition, meaning a national opponent that actually means something, probably about the same that they are now. There's no reason to think they will suddenly change their ways until they need to, like when WCW lapped them originally.

I think some guys had their passports (among other personal belongings) stolen which is a real pain in the ass with the European tour right there, as it put WWE into a bit of a scramble to get them replaced in time.

Rankings and thoughts, disk 6: 1. Butch Reed vs. Dick Murdoch (9/22/85) [bW-1] 2. Butch Reed vs. Dick Murdoch (10/14/85) [bW-6] 3. Ted DiBiase vs. Ric Flair (11/6/85) [bW-8] 4. Butch Reed vs. Ric Flair (10/11/85) [bW-4] 5. Jake Roberts vs. Ric Flair (11/24/85) [bW-12] 6. Hacksaw Duggan vs. Buzz Sawyer (11/11/85) [bW-10] 7. Ted DiBiase vs. Bob Sweetan (10/13/85) [bW-5] 8. Ted DiBiase vs. Bob Sweetan (Taped Fist) (10/11/85) [bW-3] 9. Butch Reed vs. Ric Flair (11/8/85) [bW-9] 10. Butch Reed vs. Dick Slater (11/22/85) [bW-11] 11. The Fantastics vs. Dutch Mantell & Bill Dundee (10/4/85) [bW-2] 12. The Fantastics vs. Buzz Sawyer & Dick Slater (10/27/85) [bW-7] MVP: Butch Reed takes this with his name in 3 of the top 5 (and 2 of my new top 3 overall). But wow this was one loaded disk. Stock going up: Call it a near co-MVP for Dick Murdoch. Both the matches with Reed are awesome. Tremendous talent. Stock going down: This is really kind of harsh, but of the available options Dick Slater I guess. His match with Reed didn't do much for me, and the 12th place tag is the only match on the disk I think is pretty blah. I know Slater can do better than this. General thoughts: Wow, this disk pretty much rewrote my top 20. 5 matches landed in it, and Sawyer/Duggan is also in my top 30, so this disk was pretty awesome. Only the 12th place match really does nothing for me, everything else here has details that make it a fun match or better. What a great disk this was. Probably the showcase disk for the set, I assume. I mean if disk 7-10 top this one I'd be surprised, this is probably Mid South's peak for work.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing what Sawyer can do... he's one of the guys that falls into the group of I've heard a lot about him but not really seen him much before now.

Isn't that always the thing with common sense? It's not nearly as common as it says on the label.

Rankings and thoughts disk 5 only: 1. Ric Flair vs. Butch Reed (8/10/85) [TSGDIA-10] 2. Ted DiBiase & Dr. Death vs. Jake Roberts & The Barbarian (7/14/85) [TSGDIA-4] 3. The Fantastics vs. Bill Dundee & Dutch Mantell (9/22/85) [TSGDIA-13] 4. Ric Flair vs. Wahoo McDaniel (7/12/85) [TSGDIA-3] 5. Al Perez & Wendell Cooley vs. Dr. Death & Bob Sweetan (8/30/85) [TSGDIA-11] 6. Ted DiBiase vs. Butch Reed (7/25/85) [TSGDIA-8] 7. Ted DiBiase vs. Terry Taylor (7/3/85) [TSGDIA-2] 8. Jim Duggan, Dick Murdoch & Bill Watts vs. Kamala, Kareem Muhammad & Skandor Akbar (7/28/85) [TSGDIA-9] 9. Ted DiBiase vs. Jake Roberts (7/22/85) [TSGDIA-7] 10. Dick Murdoch vs. The Nightmare (7/14/85) [TSGDIA-5] 11. Rock N Roll Express vs. Midnight Express (6/30/85) [TSGDIA-1] 12. Dick Murdoch vs. Dr. Death (9/20/85) [TSGDIA-12] 13. Hacksaw Duggan & Dick Murdoch vs. Kamala & Kareem Muhammad (7/14/85) [TSGDIA-6] MVP: Butch Reed's only in a couple matches, but a lot of this stuff didn't rank high for me and he had one match was my new #1 (until Dick Murdoch showed up in the very first match on disk 6 and did way more than Flair with the same opponent). That match was such a great Butch Reed showcase that I think it's enough to give him the nod. Stock going up: Steve Williams. He's in a couple decent matches here and seems to be growing more into his role as time goes on. Stock going down: Hacksaw Duggan. Earlier in one of my match reviews I said despite having Terry Taylor/Flair way up my list, I still don't think Taylor's a great wrestler, just a good Flair opponent. I pretty much am thinking the same thing about Duggan, for Dibiase. A lot of his other work is him bulldozing people, throwing one of the worst clotheslines in wrestling (I stand still and hold out my arm, please run into it now, thank you), and doing his taunts a whole lot. He's still "entertaining" enough but I don't know if I'd call it great wrestling. General thoughts: This wasn't my favourite disk thus far, but the two matches up top were really good, and the last match on the disk at least helps it end on a good note. Flair vs.Wahoo is also fun, in a DEAN-approved stiff kind of way.