El-P

Indeed. But to me this has nothing to do with workrate. This is the definition of a spotfest. And a spotfest can also have terrible workrate, meaning sloppy execution, useless stiffness, bad selling, contrived spots, bad setups etc… That's the problem I have with this whole question, I feel like we're confusing spotfest and workrate a bit here (and that is my issue with a lot of exemples you gave in your first post when you refered to what the word "workrate" makes you think about, Matt). I think the issue there is whether workrate can actually mean "to work slower if it is appropriate to work slower," a balance. If that's the case, then I don't think it's ever used that way. "Proper and balanced workrate." Workrate isn't used as "to work at the appropriate speed for a match." Maybe it should be used that way but I don't think it's generally used that way. I don't think it was used that way in the statement I was countering. To me "workrate" has taken a negative connotation in the late 00's following what I like to call the "Post Benoit trauma workrate guilt", which came more or less at the same time when if you wanted to enjoy the current product, you had to find ways to like the"storytelling oriented" matches of John Cena + the heavy pimping of some 80's guys like Lawler at the time following the Memphis set (pardon me if the dates don't all match-up, but all of this was around these years, more or less I believe). This is when workrate became a bad word I think.

Indeed. But to me this has nothing to do with workrate. This is the definition of a spotfest. And a spotfest can also have terrible workrate, meaning sloppy execution, useless stiffness, bad selling, contrived spots, bad setups etc… That's the problem I have with this whole question, I feel like we're confusing spotfest and workrate a bit here (and that is my issue with a lot of exemples you gave in your first post when you refered to what the word "workrate" makes you think about, Matt).

I respect that and I know you have a very precise, definite and specific idea of what you seek and enjoy in pro-wrestling. Which isn't mine, but that's fine with me. I spent so much time revisiting the 90's (WCW from 89 to 2001, ECW and SMW) because I wanted to check that one last time before I finally put it to rest. I don't think I'll ever come back to watch that stuff, ever. What do I want out of pro-wrestling at this point ? I dunno. I enjoy a lot of little things. A good angle. A good promo. A good announcing spot. A solid match. A fun vignette. A great nearfall that I didn't see coming. A stupid but fun and unexpected line during a promo. A manager/valet doing good work at ringside. I don't think I'm looking for the great matches anymore. When I stumble onto one, that's great (like rewatching Eddie vs Rey at Havoc, which is one hell of a "workrate match", if I might say so), but I've been enjoying more the characterization aspect of the US wrestling of the 90's. SMW was all about the promos and Dirty Dutch at the announcing table for instance. I really don't have a definite idea of what I want. But I know what bothers me and what I don't want. Kinda like in life actually.

No. If it looks like shit, my perception of it will be : it looks like shit but the other guy is selling it like crazy because he's John Cena. Giant Baba's offense looked like shit, but people were bumping hard for it because it was Baba. It didn't make his offense look any good. And it didn't change my perception of it looking like shit. Of course you can accept it and even find amusement in the fact it looks like shit yet it still sold like crazy. But it will change neither the fact it's badly executed (and the work of a pro-wrestler is also to make his shit look good) neither the perception that I have from it, which is that it looks bad. Yeah, I get the symbolism. But I don't watch a pro-wrestling match to get symbols. I want two guys who are pretending to fight, and if their execution suck, I don't care how "great" the "storytelling" is (and yeah, I'm putting storytelling under quotation marks, because in all honesty, the storytelling of a pro-wrestling match remains pretty damn basic at best), it's a bunch of goofs doing awkward looking stuff that just isn't very fun to watch. There's a reason why pretty much all the guys who are considered great workers are guys whose shit looks *good*. Would Lawler be loved as much if he punched like RVD ? Hell, not just the punches, but Lawler is a guy whose execution is terrific in general (and I don't love Lawler nearly as much as other guys around here). This is workrate too. The moves, the selling, the facials. And when you move like John Cena, punch like RVD and make facials like Edge, you're a pretty shitty worker to begin with in my book.

Looks interesting. I wonder how much credit he'll give to Sullivan for the early success of Nitro.

Awful debut for Bret. I'm sorry but he doesn't look like that big of a deal. Guest referee during the Larry Z vs Bischoff match. Fuck. Bret should have come out, cut a venimous promo about the WWF, dragging them in the dirt, then turn his attention to little Shawn's big friends here, Hall & Nash, that he made stars himself in the past, and Hulk Hogan whe fled in 1993 instead of facing him like a man, and that he would be at the Starrcade to ensure no one was gonna get screwed, and that if there was anything left of Hall, Nash & Hogan after that point, he would take the reminder of the nWo down piece by piece, not for WCW, but for himself. And then you have months of programs, throw in a big Flair feud and a big Savage feud at some point, and you're set. And you book fucking Nitros and one or two PPV in Canada. Meanwhile, you try Sting on top and you build Goldy so you get to something nice and easy for Starrca de the following year. It was so basic and easy.

This is exactly how the luchadors should have been used every week. Hell, WCW could have created a tag team cruiserweight title at this point and use all the mexican guys in a positive way instead of making them do jobs on Saturday Night. Terrific Nitro match. And I loved yellow La Parka.

Damn ! Where's Mike Oles when you need him ?

Okay, the dummy turning into Sting was a nice touch, but I don't think Hogan's promo was too good, and although he looked worried, he certainly looked scared shitless like he should have. Decent angle but after weeks of beatings, it felt a bit goofy and not that great to me. Efficient on the cute side, which is not exactly what the Starrcade build should have been.

This is so random. That Flair mentionned Hall & Nash vs Steiners shows how out of the loop he was. Booking himself in a cage match with Hennig when he basically already had transitionned into a feud with DDP. Jeez. The Bret Hart part of the promo was the good part, but damn they are already fucking up Bret's momentum coming off the biggest newsworthy event in modern wrestling history by mentionning him as part of the nWo without even showing his face. Starrcade has been extremely poorly built up thus far, top to bottom.

Problem is with these two promos : Nash looks cool and kinda has a point about Giant challenging him while he was out injured. Meanwhile, Giant looks like a giant sweating goof. CHOKESLAAAAAAM !!! Yeah, I had to do it too to underline the fact Nash looks a lot better here.

So he's a racist and general scumbag with or without alcohol? Does WWE not realise the potential for continued PR nightmares having someone like this in a prominent production position? Isn't Hayes a goner as soon as Stephy & Trip get full power anyway ?

I've been pleasantly surprised by Hennig thus far, but in this match he didn't work too hard, like he was just waiting for the eventual beating at the end. They had a better match on Saturday Night. Another nWo beatdown. Yawn.

Ditto. And it's yet another nostalgia buil-up with a 50 year old guy who retired more than ten years ago. But that's what WM has become anyway. Since Taker will most probably never work again, they have to rely on the last few huge names they can still drag from their last golden era. It won't be pretty once they really all get too old to show up. Austin is ONE OF THE BIGGEST WRESTLING STARS OF ALL-TIME God, I hate to sound like a dick, but some of the reactions to the idea of Austin @ WM are so myopic and "in the bubble" You don't even watch or like WWE anyway, jeez How am I in the bubble if I don't watch WWE ? As far as not liking it, I was more interested by WWE as I've been in 15 years last year around Mania. And in a matter of a few weeks, they drove me off like they usually do, except this time around I really thought for a moment I could be back following them, to a point at least. As far as Austin goes, thanks for pointing to me he was a huge star. I really missed that piece of information before making my statement. Austin is 50. Hasn't worked in years, probably shouldn't work again. Yeah, it could make for a really cool moment. Probably some really cool promos, although there's no way Austin can be as abrassive now as he was during his peak. And there's the risk of putting on a shitty match that will tarnish the good memories. Taker had one match too many (well, a few too if you ask me). Bret Hart should have never done this pathetic "match" with Vince a few years back. I don't really want to see Austin in anything but a great moment, and having him work a match at 50 after years of layoff just doesn't sound like the greatest idea. He had a great sendoff a few years back. So yeah, Austin working another match will make a huge WM and create a lot of excitement. For a nostalgia pop, again. It reminds me the streak of big retirement Tokyo Dome shows NJ put on for Inoki and Choshu around 97/98. At one point, there won't be anyone left to call back.

You can't just think about it like it's all happening in a vaacum. Pro-wrestling has changed, but the world has changed too. Not only people have seen everything imaginable in pro-wrestling, including the worst nightmare-inducing stupidity (WCW 2000, Katie Vick), but they have seen everything period. You can't compare the reactions of the audience of today with those of yesteryears without comparing the audiences themselves and the context in which they are reacting. In the past, we can't ignore that US pro-wrestling was also deeply rooted in very strong nationalistic, basic views of good (the USA) vs evil (Japan, Russia, Germany and whatever country that was or has been a threat to its economical and cultural supremacy). That it was marred by obnoxiously racist and homophobic clichés. That it cattered to the lowest common denominator to get huge reactions. A lot of stuff that worked before just couldn't be done today. Although the scene of Mark Henry litteraly crying like a bitch while listening to the US National Anthem before his match with evil Russian monster Rusev really brings us back to these formulas of old. Whether it works or not is another matter entirely, but as fun as it can look as far as working a throwback angle goes, it's still kinda embarrassing to get this kind of stuff in 2014 and I don't see how anyone can enjoy it apart from looking at it from a meta-pro-wrestling point of view. I mean, this kind of stuff wouldn't fly in any half-serious TV show or movie today without being justifiably ridiculed. And what does it say about the pro-wrestling fans of today ? Are they really "smarter" than the redneck of the old days, or are they just more informed and saturated at the same time ? Anyway, just ranting... Also we can't ignore that not *everyone* was a great crowd manipulator, and that, like it's been said, the idea that the workers of yesterday were all those amazing guy who would deeply analyse the crowd reactions and adapt their match on the fly is vastly a bunch of bullshit that the old guys like to tell. We can watch the tapes. A lot, a whole lot of matches were boring, ultra basic stuff that only worked because the audience hadn't seen shit. Yeah, it was maybe smarter, but it was also much much simpler. We only remember and rewatch the good stuff. The bad, the hideous stuff we would rather forget, and compared with the bad stuff of today, in term of working, yeah, it looks even more embarrassing. And I'm the guy who doesn't like how current wrestling works and is presented.

Really good promo, but the killer is the altercation with the granny at ringside. This was hilarious and Hogan was great here.

Hell, get Francine. She was around for the whole time and she probably had more interesting stuff to say since she wasn't getting wasted every night and saw everything that happened in that damn company. And was involved in a shitload of major angles too.

Saturday Night was so frustrating, these match just don't amount to anything. The action is nice, but… Pretty much all the luchadors were wasted in WCW.

Awful angle to follow another awful angle. Yeah, this could be part of my Death of WCW thread. The more we come close to Starrcade, the more it's obvious the company had already jumped the shark. Pitiful.

Larry has been really good all along this angle, cutting strong promos, and Bischoff is efficient here too. The flyer are a nice touch, good trolling from the nWo. The shit's on.

The matches themselves are always unwatchable, but the ending of the 96 one is actually really good. Just fast forward until the last ten guys are in the ring and from there it's really well done.

What Dan said. Oz ! The bitchiest.

The booking of Madusa in WCW in 97 just made no sense. They build her as the ace of the promotion fighting against the evil japanese devil Hokuto, but she never even got the belt and finally lost a retirement match and said goodbye, never to be heard from again until she was brought back as part of team Savage two years later. Just odd.

You gotta love Savage. He jumps right into the arms of the Giant. Then he gets a Diamond Cutter. Then a chokeslam. Then gets eliminated. Outside of that, yes, the Giant looks totally blown up. And the ending is complete garbage, I mean 1999 like garbage. Hogan gets to bodyslam the Giant and Diamond Cut DDP. Of course. The announcer think Sting is 7 feet tall. Well, if it had been Barry Windham, maybe I would have popped somewhat, only because it would have been a nice and idiotic throwback. Complete utter garbage. WCW has totally jumped the shark already. You can see whatever great build they did before for Hogan vs Sting was gonna end up in the crapper eventually in the end. Scott Hall winning made no sense either and was only a way for Hogan to eventually cut his evil promo in the beginning of 1998 : "The title doesn't matter, Hall can manage that stuff.". Awful awful awful.

Ditto. And it's yet another nostalgia buil-up with a 50 year old guy who retired more than ten years ago. But that's what WM has become anyway. Since Taker will most probably never work again, they have to rely on the last few huge names they can still drag from their last golden era. It won't be pretty once they really all get too old to show up.