El-P

The idea that Jericho worked light is pretty funny considering his rep. That he was sloppy and thus didn't always hit, yeah, but Jericho worked pretty stiff, and it showed too. And I really don't see any Shawn Michaels in Jericho either. Jericho was a guy who "watched too much Japanese shit", dixit Jim Cornette. Early Jericho is a sloppy version of Benoit * Ultimo Dragon. He's one of the WCW guys that actually got better in the WWF (as opposed to most of them), but maybe he was also working much lighter in 2001 once HHH and such complained about his stiffness, but I haven't watched that stuff in ages.

One of the best, I dunno, but certainly far from the worst. He sure was better than a bunch of them. No mention of Vampiro yet ? Shit worker, shit promo.

Sue me, I enjoyed this for what it was.

Sloooooooooooooooooow climbing up the ladder. And for the first time in a WWF ladder match, chairshots on the ladder, which I never understood how it was supposed to hurt more than chairshots directly on flesh. Amazing heat, but a far cry from either Michaels vs Razor matches (I'm typing this from memory, haven't seen this in at least 10 years if not more). As far as significance goes, very important match as both guys are over big time and look like the future of the company.

Worst ever, I doubt it. One of the most annoying ever, he has a shot.

Nah, Ice Train was green but showed some potential. He never got the chance to developp. Poor Big E Langston would be a more fitting description actually. He wasn't that bad and actually had some fun little matches here and there.

The EWF episodes from Eurosport... I forgot about those. Regal, Owen, Benoit, Iizuka, HERODES and random superworkers showed up, on the other hand you had Flesh Gordon, who was horrible, and gimmicks like TRAVESTI MAN. Yes, his name was THE TRANNY. He was a fat short dude wearing polka dots who actually was a tremendous bumper. I never actually saw that on Eurosport, only saw a few episodes on national TV TF1. Damn, I missed some stuff that seems awesomely random. Here's a vintage match with Flesh Gordon & Prince Zephy, the two babyface "stars" : (and yeah, you've got the French equivalent of rednecks in the audience) (damn, there was actually some pretty good stuff here from Zephy & Jessy Texas. The valet holding the ropes each time his guy makes a tag is a great gimmick too).

I saw him in France too in a shitty promotion that had a few episodes on TV in 91 or so. I remember guys like Carlos Plata, Johnny Saint or Doc Dean showing up too, along with some French wrestlers (the "star" and owner of the promotion was a guy named Flesh Gordon. Yep.)

I did. I'm surprised Tiger Jeet Singh hasn't been mentionned yet. Well, okay, he drew, so maybe we can't say he was worthless. Still. The ony guy who I've seen got something, anything semi-watchable out of this load was Fujinami. Dave Sullivan was indeed pretty worthless in the ring.

Crusher Maedomari. Yep. Definitely. Even Shark had a few moments where she would look half competent. But Crusher has always been godawful. On every aspect.

Watched the few part I could be interested in. Yeah, those Bella girls did some decent stuff aout there, especially during the ending stretch. Nice knee, nice missile dropkick. Some awful acting on N's part too. The tag match was pretty disjointed, but some good stuff from Dustin. How old is he by now ? Damn, this guy is good. They need to bring Terri back just once for the nostalgia kick though. I still associate Goldust with the entire act. And speaking about male/female act, glad to see Rusev is still my favourite part of the show. I'm not sure how I feel about hearing "please show some respect and rise for the playing of the Russian national anthem" in 2014. Part of me finds it kinda sad that the best part of the only game in US pro-wrestling today is basically the best Nikolai Volkoff ever. Part of me finds it cool. The fact Rusev got better in the ring and delivers an actual good power match here helps. So does Lana, who's not only one of the hottest valet ever, but her maneurisms totally crack me up. She's great. Considering the diplomatic relations between US and Russia won't get better anytime soon, they might as well push this act to the moon. Of course John Cena will get the last word and that will be a bummer, but Rusev as the best Taz ever (yeah, also) works for me. And Lana's as.. act, is really awesome. Yeah, that too. That main event was garbage. Straight out of late 98/99 WWF. Yipeee, they jumped out of high places in the first third of the match. Hey, an ECW chant. The only thing missing element there was Kane. I guess Bray Wyatt will do now, since he's the recipient of all shittiest-corniest-goofball "creepy" angles now. Yeah, he's definitely the new Kane character. And people thought Taker's ghost at Rumble 94 was dumb. So yeah. Rusev and Lana and stuff like Goldust being so good might be enough for me to fast forward through the load of crap and select just a few little things here and there.

A hologram ? Bray Wyatt really is reprising the role of funky cartoon Undertaker from the mid-90's. They need to bring back the freaky kid too. A fuck finish in a HITC ? So WCW 99 indeed. Rusev vs Big Show ? The only thing that looks appealing to me reading the comments, as Rusev (and LANA, be real), was the only act I really enjoyed when I stopped bothering months ago. I may look at this one quickly, and the hologram, just for the hell of it.

No. I'm just a little bit surprised by the enthousiasm, considering the backlash Benoit got (and again, some have been vocals around here about the fact they haven't been able or willing to watch Benoit since the murders, while I could, so...). My initial post also had a part of sarcastic black comedy in it, but it got lost in translation I think. Then it got all real serious, which is a good in the end thing since I believe it's an interesting point to discuss.

It's really not a matter of caring for Brody himself. It's a matter of "Do I want to actively seek out matches from a guy who most probably murdered a guy and get enjoyment out of his work ?" My personnal answer is no. Like I said, it's a case by case matter, as I know of (and understand) people who can't watch a Benoit match anymore, while I've been able to (in a broader context, again). Now if you're talking about caring about the victim, indeed I have no emotional link to Brody at all while I was a fan of Woman. Plus, I am very sensitive to the issue of violence against women, so in all logic I should have had more issues watching Benoit. Like I said, my own personal question here is "Do I want to willingly search for some new entertainment from a guy who killed ?". The key points are *willingly* and *new* to me. At this point, I'd rather not.

Yeah, that was like the most shocking thing that Kudo the workrate fans darling and beautiful woman was married with that sleazy looking shitty garbage wrestler Hido. Well, I guess people were jealous, as Hido was not that bad and actually quite fun at times. Still, quite the odd couple for FMW fans. Nah. Sullivan was not a bad looking dude when he was younger, and was in terrific shape too. On the other hand, Stacy Keibler and David Flair. Never quite figured it out. I guess he was a charming young man in private.

Just to add a last word on the matter, which is extremely complex, for me it's less a matter of drawing a line that would work for every case than deciding and judging for each case depending on the whole context (the context of the crime and of my own relationship, or lack thereof, with the guy's work). I would include Benoit for the simple reason I watched him and considered him a great wrestler before. If I knew nothing about Benoit today, I wouldn't go out of my way to watch him and would certainly not include him because in the end, I would just not have seen much of him except when opposed to someone I'd be really interested in (and even then, my enjoyment would most probably be tainted). Watching Benoit in the context of going through ECW and WCW made it a small part of a whole (just a few months in ECW and late 95 to 99 in a 89-2001 WCW timeline), and I admit that I was glad whenever he wasn't on TV and also fast forwarded a lot of stuff that weren't important angles/matches, not because it bothered me to watch him, but because I didn't really wanted to watch him anymore. Totally forgot about Sasaki. That's a good example, as the circonstances have been quite blurry (same thing happened in the Sumo world a few years ago, with a trainee dying because he was abused in the dojo). The very positive image change he went through in the 2000's mostly put that dark cloud out of everybody's minds. Some go so far to say his new approach in life and will to developp and take young guys under his wing was a way to "make up" for his past actions. Didn't something happen with Great Khali too BTW ?

Since I'm basically responsible for the existence of this thread, let me rebound on this : Yeah, that is my personnal experience I was talking about. Benoit was for all I know a decent guy who was also s great wrestler. Then he snapped and went insane and killed his kid and wife. At this point, I wasn't even following wrestling anymore, I had not watch much of his WWE career (expect for the big PPV matches preparing for the SC poll). Benoit was already a done deal. So when I had to rewatch his stuff on ECW and WCW during my 90's project, it was all rewatch and only part of a much broader context. I also couldn't watch a match of his without thinking "he killed Nancy" at some point, no matter how great the match was. Some times it was straight away sometimes it was later on. Some stuff was awkward as hell to watch (like when he's arguing with Nancy at ringside during a WCW angle). I've had no "issue" watching it back, but I have no desire to seek out his matches now that I'm done with this era. I probably won't ever watch a Benoit match again until I go back to watch some 90's NJ at some point, and I'm perfectly happy about it. The Invader case is different because I'd have to actively seek out his matches. And I have no desire to watch or even try to enjoy his stuff, with which I have no relationship to begin with. Benoit was part of my wrestling fandom. Like with most of us, as we watched him and praised him before the abomination he commited. Invader isn't, except for maybe El Boricua on this board. So yeah, there are hundreds of guys I can enjoy if I want. And I don't see the point in studying a guy who "alledgedly" stabbed a guy and let him bleed to death. Of course you could extent that feeling to guys like Carlos Colon, in asking what responsability they had in covering this mess. Likewise I'm not at ease with watching Snuka to be honest. That's my personal viewpoint on this case. As far as Zumhofe goes, I'll never bat an eye on this guy. I don't need to, and he's a human piece of waste. It's not even "alledged". It's a fact. And yeah, I realize that there are a lot of dirtbag in this business, likewise in pretty much the entire entertainment business, that we don't know off. But those I know about, I'd rather not have to deal with them. Yes, it's a personnal choice, and probably a question of personal sensitivity. Moral I dunno. Probably, to some extent. On a different yet parrallel topic, I'm not sure I want to watch one of those late AJ/NOAH head-dropping match ever again, since we know that it directly led Misawa to his death. There you go, that's my take on the whole thing.

By preventing mods from abusing their power by deleting posts that are neither insulting nor out of line or out of topic (considering I believe talking about should or should't we consider Invader 1 as "just another guy" is a valid question), while a the same time continuing to insult and talk down (acting like a five year old / personnal meltdown) without even letting a chance for a reply. This is abuse of power and censurship. So there.

What about Keiji Mutoh and Don Muraco then ? Muraco especially, who's the greatest laziest wrestler ever. I'd be hard pressed to put him on the same level as some not so "great" but way more consistent workers.

(oh, whatever. This doesn't even warrant an answer from me. It speaks for itself.)

I dunno. It seems odd to me to hear people in awe of a guy who actually killed another man in cold blood. Hopefully no one starts a Buck Zhumhofe thread… Anyway…

After my 90's watch I came to the conclusion that Brad was overrated in the sense he's been declared underrated all his career. He was perfectly fine where he was, and was the definition of "a good hand". Scott was the best promo but not so good in the ring. Steve was decent but easily worse than Brad. Road Dog had the best mix of all brothers, plus the size, it's no wonder he's the one who had the most success. All in all, the infamous "great" Armstrong brothers were a little bit overrated overall if you ask me. And Bullet Bob was the best promo guy of the family too. Butterface Tim Horner was better (although with a lot less charisma, hell no charisma at all), and Barry Horowitz was more interesting when he was given something to do. The Candido feud is more fun than pretty much any Brad Armstrong stuff.

So, he's everyone favourite murderer now ? Has Snuka been nominated yet ?

Love it to this day. Great dog and pony show by Raven, which gets great heat and terrific nearfalls.

The most offensive thing during this whole angle of its many followups was the upmost misoginy with which Terri Runnels was pictured. 1/ She's a slut because a mother shouldn't dress sexy for God's sake. 2/ She's a slut because she's having an "affair" with another man despite the fact her and Dustin have been effectively separated for months after HE dumped her on live TV and humiliated her in the process. Wait, what ? And don't get me on the upcoming "Terry is pregnant but gets dumped by Val who's getting cheered then gets a miscarriaged after being manhandled then admits her miscarriage was a fake like all bitches do then gets revenge on guys by putting together a stable named PMS" angles. To quote Terri herself in her shoot interview : vomit. And yeah, the Val Venis character sums up everything wrong about Russo's influence on the product.