El-P

OK then you have horrible taste in pro wres and you write huge TL;DR columns about it like you were getting a PhD in it that a handful people read and all of them are people who post on DVDVR (which is the worst board on the internet in terms of people with horrible tastes in pro wres). You sound exactly like me circa 2001. Well, I see this thing turned ugly in a heartbeat. For those who don't seem to get it, what I'm saying with trends, is that a handful of people are pimping some workers and a mass of posters follow. It's not that hard to understand, and I don't even see the issue about it. It's human, it happens in any kind of realm, music, movies, politics etc... Nobody said that you Dylan, were a follower. I'm not even talking about Chris Master since I haven't seen *any* matches by this guy. Just talking about trends. It's so funny to see you and a bunch of people deny it. QUite frankly, if I was a trendsetter, I would probably be kinda glad to be one. Well, probably not, but that's just me being me. But you get the drift, it's not even a "quality" judgement on my part, although sometime some trend just make my eyes roll (Takada hate for instance), it's just a simple observation.

I know, I feel the same way about Mark Henry and plenty of other workers who have lots of fans around various places. You just stated your point in an awkward way, as if Watching The NJPW Set = Tiger Mask Is Meh like it were some kind of mathematical equation with only one possible correct answer. I really didn't want to mention Mark Henry because it's like the own Godwin Point of the DVDVR boards, but that's a great exemple of the anti-moves trend. The Mark Henry craze was really laughable to me, and it all about one or two trendsetters and a crowd following the trend. Because it was "cool" to think Mark Henry was a better worker than Jerry Lynn. Or something.

Aww come on, Dylan, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's been going on for a few years now. I don't even see the point of denying the obvious. I don't know why you would even argue about that anyway. No, it's stupid, because no one ever said Holly was a great and influencial wrestler either.

Cool down and read my post Dylan. I'm not talking about YOU being anti-moves. I'm saying it's not surprising that the vast majority of the people watching the set hates Sayama because there's a trend. I'm not a Tiger Mask fan (as far as NJ goes, my deal is rather Choshu you see), but I can totally see his appeal, particulary in his timeframe. I don't think you'll ever come across anyone thinking Tiger Jeet Singh was a great worker. Stupid analogy really.

If Samaya was that bad, how was he considered an innovator and the icon of junior wrestling for so long in Japan, and elsewhere for that matter ? Don't tell me the Tiger mask does it all, because although the gimmick was gold, if the worker was that awful, he just wouldn't have became so big of a star. As far as the people watching the set being majoritary indifferent to Tiger Mask, it's not exactly surprising considering the "movez is bad" trend going on over there. I mean, let's be serious, it's not like this is happening in a vacuum, there's a predisposition to hate a guy like Tiger Mask these days. Now, the fact that he was nowhere as great as he has been pimped to is hardly a new opinion either, it's been said for years, it's not like the people watching the set discovered anything new. Dylan can't even see what people would like about Tiger Mask ? Well, I guess there's something he doesn't get about japanese wrestling in the 80's then, because the NJ audience and shitloads of junior wrestlers that got influenced by Sayama sure found a whole lot to like about him. And I don't particulary care about Sayama to begin with, and agree that Gran Hamada was a much better worker, but I just roll my eyes at some of the stuff here.

That made me laugh.

WWE did have two Chris at the same time, and apparently it was complex enough to fuck the mind of the "greatest announcer ever" JR to the point he wouldn't know who was Benoit and who was Jericho. Funny how Schiavone never seemed that troubled about that fact.

His face when he sees Hennig and Hall stepping out of the pool is priceless. "Ohhhhh". Nick Bockwinkel did a better rap than anyone else, this old asshole ruled so much. Add New Jack and Missy...

I love this thread.

Cornette still cuts a better promo than anyone currently employed in any wrestling promotion.

Vince should be happy to be in the "rasslin'" business still, because if he was considered as a legit Hollywood entertainment company, shit like this probably wouldn't fly. Funny to see the word "WRESTLER" too...

It's too bad because it was awesome. Tatanka & Sherri vs Bam Bam & Luna would have made for some great little mixed matches. It just occured to me, but all my favourite female valets are dead. Liz, Sherri, Woman, Luna. It's depressing enough to rewatch old stuff from my teen yeras and think about all the workers that died before they reach 45, but now I can add all the women too.

Missy's article on Luna is quite good. It's so sad she was never used to her full talent in the WWF, they never even gave her a cup of coffee with the belt while she made Sable look like a million bucks. She deserved better.

This is really sad her last days must have been so stressful and bleak. RIP Fuck ! Not Luna ! I loved the girl the first time I saw her, which was in 93 at WM 9. Great character, good little worker for the US. Man, it's depressing... Repose en paix Luna....

Booker T was anything but safe. Ask Rick Martel. As far as axe kicks, it's a tricky move. Mima Shimoda (who I love still), had a pretty shitty looking one, but I doubt she ever hurt anyone with it.

The lack of evolution in WWE's product presentation is amazing. Think about how different things went from 84 to 97. The thing is about wrestling history, is that wrestling has become post-modern during the last decade. It's become totally self referencial. The funny and odd thing about it, is the more MacMahon is acknowledging wrestling history on one hand (and rewriting it), the more he's trying to distance himself from anything that evoques "pro-wrestling" at the same time. It's totally schyzophrenic.

I hadn't noticed it. It's spooky.

But of course, WWE still has no responsability in its employees (oups, FORMER employees, don't forget to get the dates right in the eulogy) dropping dead at young ages.

I thought this was by far the best match of the night, the best Taker vs Austin match ever, and the closest thing to a legit MOTYC the WWF could deliver. Yeah, the heat was down because the crowd had been drained by the ladder match (which wasn't very good when you think about it, and although Rock was over like hell, he wasn't a very good worker at that point), and because a face vs face match wouldn't draw the same heat but that wasn't the fault of Austin nor Taker. It was a rare no bullshit wrestling match, which I guess is why Russo hates it, but as far as the work goes, it was great. Russo and his idiotic booking then saw fit to re-book Austin and Taker for the two next PPV with the addition of Kane and stupid overbooking, which led to terrible boring matches.

The behaviour of a WWE employee *outside* the realm of his work has nothing to do with "reminding every chance you get" that it's fake. It's not like the straight edge girl is showing up wasted to work, is it ? So, anyway, I think it's petty bullshit, as always. There's a huge difference between exposing your product as fake on your own TV show, and wrestlers not living their gimmick in public when they aren't working. You think kids really are able to get to the places where this girl is partying ? I think not. Since it's for KIDS mostly, who cares about what she does in bars, since no kid will be able to see her drink anyway.

Undertaker is a unique case. He's a 20 year old gimmick, that was created in a time were there was still some kind of kayfabe. Really has nothing to do with him not making appearance in the last decade. At best it's a cutesy post-modern gimmick in itself. Everybody knows that Taker is good old Mark, the biker guy who had "Sara" tattoed on his neck before he fucked some diva, and not some mystical creature. Which makes no difference whatsoever. There can't be "a little" kayfabe. Either there is, of there isn't. It's like a magic trick. Once you know the trick, you know the trick and you can't go back. I love how WWE try to distance themselves from the very notion that they are "rasslin'", yet they still fire people over that old carny kayfabe concept that has no meaning whatsoever in 2010. I don't think my nephews who are 7 and 5 year old care about how the wrestlers act in public, because they just aren't aware of it. Only the little kid can "believe" in a kayfabe way now. Really, do the people who see this girl party care that she's not living her gimmick ? Will that prevent them from enjoying, if they do, that part of the WWE product ? I don't think so. They're also "cleaning up their image" by distancing themselves from all the workers who died after spending years busting their balls from them. There's nothing in all of this that the WWE should be praised for.

What ? In 2010 ? In a public shared entertainment company ? She *portrays* a straight edge girl but does not act like a straight edge girl when she's not working, and that's sufficient to fire her ? Does Randy Orton has to live his gimmick in pubic too ? It's ridiculous. Not that I care, but it's ridiculous.

So basically, she's fired because she is breaking kayfaybe. In 2010. In corporate WWE. Nice...

After all these years I'm still amazed by how much a bunch of dirtbags the McMahons are.

SummerSlam 98 was the apex on my WWF fandom. There was some stuff I didn't like with the new direction of course (for instance, the retarded use of Kaientai), but all in all the build to this show was terrific and it delivered. After, it was a painfull downward spiral, with the Survivor Series being the first extremely Russoesque show with zero good matches and all stories and swerves. The Royal Rumble 99 ended my relationship with WWF for ever. I stopped being a fan right there, never looked back since.