El-P

This is not the point. WWE doesn't pretend to sell anything else but WWE wrestling. You seem to have a problem with UWF-i selling "shoot-style" wrestling, under the guise of realism which was supposed to be the roots of "shoot-style", while having a guy not realistic enough (or not good enough to be realistic) as their top star. You seem to imply it should be a problem to the viewers, yet, the native audience of the second UWF and UWF-i apparently had no "realism" issue with the product that were sold to them as "realistic", nor with Takada's style obviously. So, for whom it is an issue really, except people like you who have decided that Takada wasn't "realistic enough" ? It's like criticizing a movie for not delivering what *you* expect, even though it was not the point of the movie to begin with. I point to the fact that it did great business because it contradict your point that Takada's lack of realism was a problem in a promotion that was supposedly sold as "real". It wasn't an issue at all because UWF-i was just another style of pro-wrestling, period. Takada's "lack of realism" is just a bullshit line to me, especially coming from someone who pimp Fujiwara, who's about as pro-wrestling as anyone I've ever watched, as one the greatest shoot-style worker ever. Let's not have double standarts here. You can criticize Takada as much as you want to, but the "lack of realism" just doesn't cut it in any way shape or form. This doesn't make any sense, sorry. What is a "faux" (en français dans le texte) work shoot ? It's a work to begin with ! How can it be "faux". This is entirely a matter of aesthetic at this point, but if we talk about aesthetic, it opens a huge can of worms. And really, are there some "faux" brawling matches too ? Some "faux" barb wire matches were the guys don't bleed enough ? Come on. I get the feeling of "purity of style" here, and we're getting closer and closer to Mike Oles's old "wrestling as figure skating" argument. I'm sorry, but Takada vs Vader sure didn't look like Tamura vs Volk Han, but both were awesome *pro-wrestling* matches, and that's about where I draw the line. In what way RINGS or PWFG were more *serious* ? Some would say that PWFG was dull. RINGS had shitloads of just terrible shitty matches with godawful martial artist who couldn't work a lick, matches looking like contrived work-exposing turds, and you had to wait for Han, Yamamoto and Tamura to work against each other to get that pearl in a middle of terrible comically bad matches. RINGS card were a chore to sit through most of the time, especially before Tamura joigned. And the idea that Fujiwara is more *serious* than Takada is funny in itself. Again, shitloads of goofy headbutts and maneurism. He was working shoot-style. Now you can argue as much as you want why you think he wasn't a very good worker, but the "realistic" argument just has no place anywhere. I love the "It wasn't comletely realistic". No, indeed. Really a drunk Sandman smashing a bamboo cane on someone's head is more realistic in a real fight setting than Fujiwara's funky submissions (don't get me wrong here, I love Fuji's funky submissions) and goofy headbutts (which are as goofy as anything else I've seen in pro-wrestling). Fujiwara worked what we call "shoot-style". He didn't look much more realistic than Takada or Maeda to me. Like Takada, like Han, like Gary Allbright. You would admit neither of these guys work the same way, but that they work in the realm of one style that is more "realistic", quotations marks matter here, than your average modern US or Japan style. Again with the aesthetic argument, and that's where you open a huge can of worms. Because the words "aesthetic" and "these guy took this shit seriously" brings pictures of ROH matches with people chanting "this is awesome" at some moves exhibition, which can also be considered an aesthetic without selling nor drama. So, are we saying here that since it's all about aesthetic and the workers taking this shit seriously, the spot monkeys of the 2000 have created a new style that is worth digging into ? I can see how some people would be lost in shoot-style, I never got that much lucha myself, so... Still both are pro-wrestling, and I don't see how it's more a departure from traditionnal pro-wrestling than FMW was. Yes. And *your* point is ? I'm saying "realism" is not a factor of how good you are or aren't if you work shoot-style, that is all. Because "realism" just isn't a factor in pro-wrestling. Neither do I, but really, now you're implying that pro-wrestling doesn't have to be necesseraly *worked*. Which, basically, is wrong. Pro-wrestling has always been and will always be a *work*. Takada promoted PRIDE by doing worked matches in a MMA show. He did look like an idiot doing it. Well, it worked because it launched PRIDE, but Takada looked like a goof. You're not making any sense here. Tamura is part of my personnal pantheon of wrestlers. I never said his ability was a gimmick. Selling "shoot-style" as the real thing was a total gimmick. It gave birth to a new and beautiful style, which I loved, but that's all there is. There's nothing more specific to it. Most of the shoot-style workers also worked in other promotions. Fujiwara worked in FMW. Yamazaki and Takada worked in New Japan. Naoki Sano used to work NJ junior, then worked heavy in NOAH with a his "UWF shoot-style" gimmick. Tamura obviously wasn't interested, that's why he choosed to not take part in NJ's feud with UFW-i, which allowed him to keep his pure shoot-style aura intact and become RINGS new native star instead of a NJ mid-carder. I love his matches with Han and Khosaka to death. But really, I couldn't give a flying fuck if those matches really look "realistic" or not. This is not the point. The point is to have great *pro-wrestling* matches. I don't love those match because I find them "more realistic". Hell, most real fight bore me to death, so if you would really want to do a realistic worked shoot, it would be a chore for me to watch. Hell, who in the hell could find Volk Han "realistic" ? Let's be serious, Volk Han is flashy as hell, he sells shots to the gut like Steamboat and does crazy submission shit like Regal, all in the realm of his own style, but still. I know you think Takada is no good, but the argument that he was no good because he wasn't "realistic" enough just doesn't make any sense to me. Because if we're going that route, then Yoshiaki Fujiwara and Volk Han must be some shitty shoot-style worker too in their own way.

Since Takada became arguably the biggest draw in the 90's in Japan, either UWF-i fans were satisfied with the believability of Takada as the big star of their "worked shoot" promotion, either they didn't care about realism that much to begin with and had no problem with Takada not being "realistic" enough. No, these are not valid reasons for criticising Takada at all. UWF-i was pro-wrestling, period. It's like criticizing some mexican guy because is style is not lucha libre enough and does too much american style pro-wrestling spots are psychology while working in Mexico. If it works, that's all that matters. And Takada's style worked in spades, and drew shitload of money to boot. So, whatever the claim of the UWF and UWF-i being "realistic", their fan embraced Takada and didn't see any problem wih his "lack of realism". You really think Fujiwara is realistic ? Goofy headbeat galore. Nah... Shoot-style is just another form of pro-wrestling, like garbage wrestling, lucha, european. Who was working in the first UWF ? Tiger Mask, who was doing moonsaults in the mids of "realistic" matches. Hell, they all did tons of traditionnal pro-wrestling moves in the first UWF, dropkicks etc... Second UWF had matches with Backlund. UWF-i had Vader, Dan Severn, the Iron Sheik, Bad News Brown, they worked in NJ and WAR. Hell Dan, you're the one telling me that PRIDE was the best pro-wrestling promotion in the 2000. PRIDE. So, if PRIDE was "just another form of pro-wrestling", the entirely worked UWF-i certainly was as pro-wrestling as Jerry lawler working Bill Dundee, Abby working Terry Funk or Sabu working the Sandman. Just a stylistic difference, that's pretty much all there was. "Realism" was a gimmick. Some worked the gimmick feel speed (Tamura, Yamazaki), some didn't (Anjoh, Takada).

I wouldn't call Hokuto and Kandori exchanging a few shoot punches once masturbatory. I would call most of Foley's bullshit about getting potatoed by Vader or talking 10 unprotected chair shots to the head by Shane Douglas and redoing it with the Rock in front of a bigger audience (and his family) masturbatory and stupid. Lioness Asuka vs Yumiko Hotta "shoot" match was a total masturbatory match. If you don't know how to make a shoot-style match look good without killing yourself and shoot-punching each other in the face, it doesn't mean you are tough and ballsy, it means you suck and are stupid. Low-Ki kicking people as hard as he can because he's a mark for japanese yough style is masturbatory. A great quote about from Rick Martel about Booker T (a notorious "dangerous" worker) "You need to convince the audience, you don't need to convinve me !". He talked about how Meng and the Barbarian who are two of legit toughest guy ever in the business being light as a feather in the ring, to the point you wouldn't feel them if they didn't want you to but still made things look great. This is also a criteria totally foreign to us when we judge workers, but a criteria that matters a lot to the actual workers. It's interesting to hear that Koji Kanemoto is considered one of the best worker in Japan by everyone because the guy, despite doing stiff kicks, is *safe as hell* apparently. Should that criteria be used also when discussing the greatest workers ?

`So basically John Cena is the new Roddy Piper.

Hokuto was pretty much a great worker as a Marine Wolf already.

Wasn't around for half a year though in 98.

Yep, he fucked up his back in late 89 I believe. He was never the same afterward.

I mentionned Fujinami. He was tremendous in the 80's, so if you've seen mostly that part of his career, lately, I understand you would put him that high, Fuji was as good as anyone then. Rey, I guess I'll have to really dig deep into his WWE career to give an accurate opinion, and that's something I'm really not willing to do based on the scattered vision I had of some of his big matches there. The issue I have with Rey to begin with, is that rewatching his matches in ECW and lots of WCW, I find myself not that involved with Rey overall. Kinda like some of the NJ juniors, I think some of his work hasn't aged that well. Granted, he was better in AAA anyway, and that is something I would need to see more too, but outside of a few great matches in WCW, basically I'm not blown away by Rey Rey's work retrospectively. And since I've been less than enthousiastic about the big WWE matches in which he worked that toned down and quite frankly annoying style based around a goofy spot, I really would not consider Rey as one of the greatest wrestler ever. It's bizarre, it's like at the same time I wasn't sold at all on the "Rey is better in the WWE because he's a great storyteller" argument, I found myself not being blown away anymore by most of his earlier matches either. I still like Rey, I still think he had some great matches with Eddie and Juventud, but I would say he's a guy who's stock has dropped a bit in my book overall, and not all of it because of his WWE career which I just don't care for. So, yeah, my answer would be no, but not for the most obvious reason.

Maybe, but last time I watched lot of joshi she's one whose stock dropped. Not that she became "bad" in my eyes, not at all, but certainly not as good as I thought she was. And I've never seen her in a great match in which she was the best of the two (or the four). Yamada's stock dropped a lot more. She's a girl I used to think was great, she dropped to "good". And Hotta dropped from "good" to "sucked donkey ass since day one". I know it's not relevant to the conversation, but I like to repeat how much Yumiko Hotta sucks. Back to Toyota, I don't dislike her style, but Kyoko Inoue does it better. So. I wonder what I would think of the infamous 95 match you mention. I loved it when I fist saw it, but it's been like a decade ago.

Thanks for the clarification Dan. Makes sense now. As far as UWF-I being flashy, I agree with Ditch, I don't see it at all. UWF-I was maybe flashy compared to the second UWF or PWFG, but it was still pretty straight forward shoot-style. I agree that Takada was flashy though, but was he flashier than Maeda ? I'm not sure about that. The fact that UWF-I was the biggest thing in Japan for a short time also played a part in the style being popular, it was pretty hard to ignore it. I don't think it was *that* popular though, people were way more in NJ juniors, AJ heavies, joshi and FMW and MPro as far as indies go. I don't remember that many talks of straight UWF-I matches or cards, most of it was the Vader matches and the feud with NJ. As far as RINGS goes, well then I would agree with Dan, RINGS was the least flashy promotion you could get. I can't think of any promotion that was less flashy than RINGS.

I admit I'll never understand how a wrestling style can be "passé" (en français dans le texte). I mean, I understand, but aren't all style dated anyway ? Whose opinion ? The majority in a subculture of a subculture of a subculture's opinion ? Im not being snarky, I just wonder what does "opinion has changed" mean. I know my opinion on some workers has changed. My tastes have evolved. But does that mean it has evolved the same way the majority of a sub of a sub of a sub's opinion has evolved ? I don't think so. So, I don't really get what that sentence means...

He's 61 and she's 21. Not exactly the same thing.

Well, Toyota does murders Michaels, but at this point Michaels just doesn't belong in any "greatest anything" discussion to me, except the "biggest non-jobbing unprofessionnal douchebag" category. But yeah, Dave should have dropped the names Hokuto, Jaguar, Chigusa, Devil, Ozaki, Aja, Bull here instead. But hey, he dropped Kobashi's names instead of Misawa and Kawada. It's not the sama hiatus, but still.

That's where you lose me. Toyota was never even the best woman in her own promotion, at any point of her career. And I like Toyota, always did. Bt when I think "best woman of the 90's", last time I checked, Toyota sure had no shot at it. In the top 10 of the 90's, maybe. I'm not sure but maybe. But the best ? Not a chance.

Unlistenable. Lance Storm really buried Bruce on the following edition of the show.

Yep... Classy indeed...

I admit this kinda my case, not in that I haven't watched anything new, but in that I haven't rewatched any Takada in like 10 years. So I'm speaking based from my memories alone. I've changed opinion and taste about many wrestlers in the last 10 years. If I ever get to rewatch Takada and finds him not holding up to the memories I had from him, I'll have no problem admiting I was wrong. I admit that would be a shocker to me, but I guess it's possible.

You're getting me wrong, I'm an old school puro fan. I'm refering to Anjoh having a bad rep back as early as the late 90's. No one would have pimped him as being anything special back then, and I guess having goofy matches with Fuyuki in NJ didn't helped his case as a shoot-style worker. Getting killed by a Gracie kinda hurt the perception of UWF-I too. So, what I'm learning here is that new fans love Anjoh and think he was as good as Takada. Then again, since new fans don't think Takada was anything special, it brings back to the point of Anjoh not being anything special at all in the grand scheme of things. Interesting. Personally I always enjoyed Anjoh more than he was pimped "back then", he was a great douchebag and a fine worker. His match with Tenryu in WAR was gold. But Anjoh "great shootsyle worker", I have trouble with this notion. Really this talk about shoots-style worker reminds me how much I loved it.

He's not 40 years old anymore. He grew more mature I guess... Well, there's that too I guess. Only thing is that it's a lifelong trend with Lawler. How bizarre to think a man who grows as old as 61 and never was with a 30 or 40 year old woman. I mean, yes, there's something definitely disgraceful somewhere.

Haven't seen enough of early Kohsaka to judge, but at his peak he was clearly one of the best ever, right up there with Han and Tamura. It seems I have missed another rehabilitation, but since when did people like Anjoh ? I always liked him a lot, but he did have a poor rep at one time. I never thought as Yamamoto as being in the same league as Tamura or Khosaka, which is not a knock on him. But I think he got banged up rather quickly too. RINGS has always been very overlooked anyway. Not as much as PWFG, but still never got much attention.

I agree. It was exactly that way for people who showed up on the internet during the Monday Night Wars. First thing I read back then was the Raw/Nitro reviews. Then I stumbled onto Quebrada/DVDVR and so on, and yes, the way things were presented is exactly what you said. I'm pretty sure tons of people got their first taste of puro with the Super J Cups, the IWA deathmatche tournament (thanks to ECW) and bought When Worlds Collide as their first (and often only) "lucha" tape. I don't think either. Now shitloads of wrestling is available in a snap of a finger, without even having to pay. It changes everything. When you can only buy a few tapes a month, you are very selective and follow the gospel of what's supposed to be great. This is gone, and this is better. I wish I was ten year younger in that sense, that would have saved my some serious money... If I had the passion I had ten years ago with the availability of wrestling now, I would get crazy. Totally agree. Availability of a wide range of wrestling from all eras and territory make things totally different. Bt like Loss said, it's a subculture of a subculture of a subculture.

This is mostly correct, but I'd expect Takada to drop more than the others. Most of the sifts are 'positive', that is, discovering the volume of greatness from great talents. Takada's case has really been obliterated over the years. Between the '80s sets and the increasing respect for shoot-style that wasn't UWFi, what support Takada had as a Top 5 type is now either going to shift to other shoot-stylists (ie. Fujiwara, Tamura, Han, maybe Yamazaki), or he'll just flat-out drop. I never really 'got' the case to begin with, and in recent years I think it's almost become a boogeyman. It's mentioned more my people who don't hold the opinion than by people who do. As an old shoot-style fan, I never though Takada was great at straight shoot-style. Don't get me wrong, I thought he was really good, but not *great* at working the style, but it was not what Takada was about. He was all about working pro-wrestling epics with opponents as varied as Vader, Maeda, Backlund, Tenryu and even stiffs like Allbright. I always thought Yamazaki was superior in shoot-style, but then again, Yamazaki is the great lost worker of the 90's. As far as RINGS goes, Tamura, Han and Khousaka are also vastly superior to Takada in the straight style. I wonder why Khousaka doesn't seem to be pimped as much as Tamura or Han BTW these days. Back then Tamura and Khousaka were linked together as the two great shoot-style workers. I guess RINGS was never really popular and people are discovering it today or something, because the fact that a top 5 shoot-style workers "shifting" toward Han and Tamura is rather amusing to me when these two were always at the top of the rankings to me as far as the style goes. I guess waching RINGS 12 years ago put me in a ultra small minority. I wonder what people think of Yamamoto.

I'm surprised to hear you say this, because you always strike me as "Oh, so this isn't liked anymore, when did THAT happen?" guy. Maybe that's unfair, I don't know. I guess that's what I'm projecting these days, maybe because I've been very vocals about trends. But really, looking at the big picture, and outside of the guys I mentionned, I don't see a big shake up. Guys like Tiger and Dynamite were already harshly criticizes twelve years ago by some people, so there weren't any big concensus on them, ever. Maybe I said what you mentionned a lot, but I do think I repeated it over and over again over the same two or three topics. Oles was the "pro-wrestling as figure skating" guy. Man, at some point I will really have to revisit Takada, because I don't remember him lacking emotions at all. This anti-Takada trend has been the oddest to me. Hearing that Takayama, in 96 no less, when he still kinda sucked (and really, Takayama was very overrated to me during his peak several years later) outworked Takada just boggles my mind. I dunno, I changed my minds before about workers I thought were good or bad, at this point I've heard so much about Takada that I just wonder what I would think of this guy now, after hearing all this criticism that doesn't seem to fit with the memories I have at all. Takda being stoïc ? He never struck me that way at all.

Well, at least he's consistent.

Just for the record, I always loved Backlund and thought he was better than *good*, and the WWF SC poll complete with watching tons of Backlund matches from the 70's and 80's convinced me that he was a great worker. So, I may be on the "He's overrating Backlund" wagon, but I've always been a fan, I just wasn't aware he had so many excellent matches in his prime. DiBiase surely never worked harder than he needed too, especially in Japan. Terry Funk as the best wrester ever ? I'm ok with that thought.