El-P

Sak was a very good micard talent. Period. That's not Hof material. End of debate.

The style was not more legit. It "looked" more legit, but it was bullshit too. Severn was a pro-wrestler in indies before he even step foot in the UFC. He was the NWA champ for goodness sake. He said it himslef in interviews, he made money doing pro-wrestling before making money doing MMA. Severn worked indies, IWA Japan, NJ, UWF-I, WWF. Severn was a pro-wrestler who also did MMA. And he said it himself, these are two different profesionnal realms. Which is complete bullshit since it's not a MMA Hof but a pro-wrestling Hof and what you did outside of pro-wrestling just shouldn't count for shit. They're switching between the too becaus eof their fighting background, not because they were "pro-wrestlers". Those who did because they were "pro-wrestlers" without solid fighting background got their asses kicked. As soon as it becomes "real", it's not pro-wrestling anymore. It's like saying porn and prostitution are two exact things. It's not. Sorry for bringing back the pron analogy, but a porn actress and a whore aren't the same thing. No. Like Severn said, it's two different professionnal realm. One day you do a pro-wrestling match, the other you do a MMA fight. It's just not the same thing, how hard is that to understand. A porn actress who would whore out herself on her days off is doing two different activity, even though one ressemble the other very much. It's been a huge draw at some point, but to say that Japanese wrestling is alla bout worked shoot is just wrong. And Inoki wasn't all about worked shoot either. He was also all about fighting Bruiser Brody and Tiger Jeet Singh and Hulk Hogan. And UWF was also all about working pro-wrestling style matches against NJ. And UWF-I was also all about having Sheiky baby and Vader working pro-style. I mean, It's like saying japanese wrestling was all about workrate and such, it's just wrong. That the business part of it are comparable is one thing, but still. Pro-wrestling isn't and has never been a sport. Period. You have to draw the line somewhere. Go a little further and you can say that cinema is the same thing as boxing and pro-wrestling because after all, it's all about getting stars together (good guys vs bad guys in most big mainstream entertainment movie) and drawing huge crowds in theatres and sell DVD's. With that line of thinking, you can go very far.

Moolah also does extremely well with active wrestlers, so I think part of the difference is historical perception, unless she taught the modern day Divas how to whore themselves out to management and all the top stars. Also, many of Moolah's female peers hated her guts for the same reasons Daddy's peers hate his. Moolah has been pimped for the last 20 years as a legend by the WWE machine, and her later days as a comical figure with Mae Young probably altered the perception of active wrestlers who only knew her as the though and funny (well, to Vince and the WWE office at least) granny instead of a shitty egoistical asshole who pimped her trainees and destroyed any chance of success for women's wrestling in the US.

Don't be stupid. His matches were more legit than Onita's. In what way ? They were about two guys collaborating in a fake fight. And Sakuraba doing pro-westling never drew shit, while Onita drew huge. SAkuraba doing MMA drew huge. This is a pro-wrestling HOF, or at least it should be. That's what they actually were. They weren't pushed as such because UFC was in the US, and there's no way they would have been taken seriously if promoted that way. But that's what they were. It didn't kep Severn from bringing his NWA belt to a UFC fight. Pro-wrestlers doing MMA. Tamura should be in the hall for being the greatest shoot-style wrestler ever and being a reasonnably big star in later days RINGS once Maeda faded. What does "being a pro-wrestler" mean anyway? Of course he's a pro-wrestler, but when he's doing MMA fight, he's not doing pro-wrestling, it's not hard to understand. It's like saying Dennis Rodman's inclusion in the NBA HOF (if there's such a thing) should consider his pro-wrestling matches as a plus because it drew big PPV numbers and TV ratings, and he was a basketball player damnit. Except when he's tagging with Hulk Hogan, this has nothing to do with basketball. When Tamura fights Gilbert Yvel, it has nothing to do with him working a pro-wrestling match with Gary Allbright. The disciplines are closerin style and spirit, but one is a performance, the other is a sporting event. Of course the problem is that PRIDE did promote some wrestling matches too and presented them as legit, which is a problem. Apart from Inoki and UWF which derives directly from him, no, there's no "large chunk of Japanese pro-wrestling history" that is about faking shoots. AJ sure was never about that. Neither was 90% of NJ, which was about juniors, gaijin monsters and Choshu throwing lariats. Neither was 90% of joshi save for the occasionnal martial art bullshit, neither was FMW (which was basically making a spoof out of it at first) nor lucharesu... Worked "shoot" existed in the US too, with the occasionnal gimmick boxing match and such. That it's promoted, or should be promoted as pro-wrestling, well, maybe. But sorry, MMA has never been pro-wrestling and won't be as long as it isn't worked. PRIDE blurred the line but like you said there's that cultural thing in Japan with martial arts and Inoki pretending to shoot, but really, there's no way anybody can say that MMA is pro-wrestling. It's the closest thing to pro-wrestling you can find, but it's just not the same thing at all. It's closer to boxing or any other legit fight sport than it is to pro-wrestling. Which is why the supposed accolades in MMA is bullshit as far as a pro-wrestling HOF goes. FTR I do think the HOF is bullshit anyway and I really don't care one way or another, but that argument about Sakuraba making it thanks to his MMA career just sounds absurd to me. I guess Akebono should go straight into the pro-wrestling HOF then. (I guess you'll tell me that Akebono is still a sumotori and not a pro-wrestler...)

Well, it's the way it is, but it really shouldn't because it's irrelevant to what the guy did in pro-wrestling UWF-I was pro-wrestling. His matches weren't more legit than Onita's. There was no "illusion". He was a pro wrestler. But he was doing MMA, not pro-wrestling. As it is, he was a MMA fighter, with a pro-wrestler gimmick and personna. Does Dan Severn success in UFC and amateur wrestling makes him a HOF too? After all, he was a pro-wrestler before doing MMA, just like Ken Shamrock. Shamrock shoud be in a HOF because of his UFC accolades too ? Tamura's MMA fight should be considered too ? It makes no sense to me. Of course, if Sak matches were worked, then I understand, because it would be pro-wrestling then. But as far as I know, these were legit MMA fights. It all goes down to Meltzer nonsense about MMA being pro-wrestling, because I guess there's a legitimity complex there.

So Sakuraba should be in because he was a pro-wrestler being great and famous at doing something that isn't pro-wrestling ? That makes real sense...

Good analogy with Moolah.

I think wrestling was really big in France in the 50s-60's or so, big stuff on TV. Yet, I never heard a thing about it online. Probably because the footage is very rare, and it's french, and I don't think any of the big star toured anywhere. From the french wrestling scene, only Eddie Carpentier (who became a canadian citizen) and Andre really became big in the US (and the world in the case of Andre). The rest of the history of french wrestling pretty much disapeared.

Sounds pretty bad indeed, and the shoot-angle stuff is surprising considering how much he blasted Russo for it. Maybe Corny is really out of touch whenever he tries to actually build something, as opposed to making fun hateful rants on how the current product sucks.

JR, get out of this body.

Yep. Ric Flair owes money to... Highspot.com Jeez, making fun of Shane Douglas wasn't a very good idea after all, Flair. At least he's not whoring out himself at 60+ in most probably über embarrassing matches with Hogan to give money back to freaking Highspots.com.

Heard several workers talk about how great of an athlete Billy Gunn actually was. I think JR couldn't keep mentioning it because he's a mark for legitimate athlete, kinda like he always mentions college football.

Road Dog was still employed? And did I miss something, but weren't Shane Douglas and Raven coming back at some point ? Didn't they vanish pretty soon too ? Can't wait to hear Cornette talk about TNA now that he's not employed there...

Love it if only for the masses of pissed off WWE fans that will scream bloody murder on Flair coming back after his "emotional" and "real" retirement. Flair is a true pro like Funk and Onita.

Yeah, you're probably right, I'm being unfair because *I* feel the workers they're defending with that line of thinking are crap. But this is still one of the easiest way to defend poor workers to me. That and "Oh, he plays his role well".

Sure, it's not *always* a cop out. But some people genuinely like crap too. So...

Ok, so let's play... Here's one : athetic ability is overrated. How many "great athlete" ended up sucking at wrestling. Billy Gunn was refered for years as the "best pure athlete yaddi yadda", and it was certainly true. Didn't keep him from sucking, like a whole lot of "great athletes". I agree with Dan on "it's not what you do, it's the way that you do it" being overrated. It's a bad cop out to excuse some poor workers who have the right idea but just suck at execution to me. Kinda like "Size doesn't matter, what matters is how you use it.". Same thing. The "playing your role well" has been ridiculously overrated too, maybe since the Mark Henry pimping days. It's not because you play "your" role right that you become a good worker. This can pretty much excuse any big stiff around who know how to play the role of a big immobile stiff. It's easy to play a role when it doesn't take much talent. Overrated quality. I'd rather watch a worker who's still searching himself and makes mistakes but shows good stuff in the ring.

Sano or Ultimo Dragon? Sano's peak murders Ultimo's peak. His transition to shoot style was smooth and successful as hell, and he got a lot of mileage out of the style in the 90's. Ultimo has had his moment of shine in the mid-90's, but the post injury work, from what I've seen, just hurts him. Genichiro Tenryu or Randy Savage? Both have been involved in absolutely great matches. Both had period of lazyness where they got boring and/or underwhelming. Tenryu's longevity gets him the nod, although Savage's peak in the 80's might be more impressive than Tenryu's. Ted DiBiase or Rick Rude ? To me DiBiase was always the supposed great worker that never had any great matches. After the Mid-South viewing, it became obvious that as good as he was, he just was never that *great*. Rude had performances DiBiase just never had. Rude's best matches are better. Rude. 1980s Ric Flair or 1980s Jerry Lawler? Flair, not even thinking about it. Jumbo Tsuruta or Harley Race? Not seen enough Race, and although I find really absurd the "Race was Kurt Angle" lie of thinking, I'm not sold on Race as one of the absolute best of all-time. Jumbo without even having to think much. Rob Van Dam or John Morrison? From what I've seen, Morrison is Nova 2009 with better production. RVD was never a great worker or anything, but at least he had his own style, got his own niche and did work good matches. RVD. Kimala I ("Kamala" Jim Harris) or Kimala II a.k.a. Uganda ("Botswana Beast" Ben Peacock)? Kamala. One of the "played his role well" kind of good worker. I haven't seen anything notable from Kimala II, although working comedy matches in AJ with Baba certainly isn't easy to show much. Head Hunter A or Head Hunter B? Head Hunter B. I really don't have to explain, do I? Stan Lane or Dennis Condrey? Condrey. Very good old school worker who could bump, stooge, work, and look good doing anything. Lane's kick were goofy (to be polite) and he just wasn't that good of a worker by himself basically. Tom Prichard or Jimmy Del Ray? Pritchard. Same things as Condrey. Del Ray was really good though, and looked dirty as hell, which is a plus when you're doing this gimmick. Brian Blair or Jim Brunzell? Brunzell. Blair was dull as dirt, I don't see anything remotely notable about him. He was better than Jim Powers though... Dustin Rhodes or Barry Windham? Windham, in a landslide. At his peak, Windham was one of the best ever. And when he got fat and lazy, he was better than when Dustin became fat and lazy. Dustin got a longer career, but he never got as high as Windham did. Randy Orton or Edge? If there's something I absolutely don't get about today's wrestling, is why Randy Orton is considered a good (when not great) worker. To me he's a black hole, he's a one move wonder (and when you picked it up from DDP, really, it's not very creative...) and his matches are complete borefest. Edge wins by default.

Was Konnan a good worker at any point of his career ? I ask because I don't think I've seen one match when I though that he was even decent or put on a good performance.

I love this thread. In a few days pretty much everything quality a wrestler can have will be considered overrated.

Edge was decent as a smart ass clown, but for anything "serious" he's just terrible. There's nothing remotely credible in his acting, even by modern "soap opera let's pretend wrestlers can act" wrestling standart. What's Dave issue with Murdoch ? The fact that he was maybe a racist (that has been said many times). ?

I think he would have gotten old and boring and vanilla. Kinda like Kanemoto. His career has been a lot more interesting than a lot of juniors who have stayed at the same place. Unless they graduate to heavy and get somewhat of a sustained push like Hase and Koshinaka, and unless their name is Juhin Thunder Liger, most NJ juniors end up stale and boring at some point.

Ok, so... (Whatever his first name is) Sano or Ultimo Dragon ? Tom Zenk or Scotty Riggs ? Brad Armstrong or Jim Brunzell ? Genichiro Tenryu or Randy Savage ? Ted DiBiase or Rick Rude ?

Not everybody can be a headliner. Being a Roh main eventer means shit anyway in the grand scheme of things. Oh, whatever... He'll probably get more roids in his body so he can look like a headliner now...

NAh. CM Punk already had a look to him that made him stand out. He's been successful more than anyone could have expected though.