El-P

Depends of who you're talking about. For instance Neil Young is still amazing at his age and after his accident. That said, Tenryu was never better than after he passed 40.

You're missing John's dry sense of humour. And I echo what Jingus is saying. Especially when getting up the ass is both natural and enjoyable (supposedly), while getting your forehead sliced up by a razorblade or getting launched in the air and landing on your hip is neither. Of course you could make analogy with old rock bands writing the same song 20 year after their hits period, but it doesn't work as well and the physical side of the activity we're talking about. Porn is about as accurate a comparison you can make.

No, I said I found the idea of it being "dated" was silly.

Wait, where is that 60 year old Ginger Lynn money shot picture so we can get the right comparison idea?

Talk about old stuff. At this point I really have no time or energy to get involved into over detailled argument about this or that worker. Really, I've got past that point. But I do follow what's said, what's liked or not, and if something seems right, wrong, interesting, intriguing or just plain stupid I'll drop some thoughts about it. Some recent trends have delivered some interesting points or enlightments about somes workers, others seem quite bizarre to me. Plus, there's a point when you have to agree to disagree. I know me and Dan will never see eye to eye on some stuff. Ditto Dylan, with whom I can't share his love for the current WWE product, no matter how hard I try to watch and try some positive stuff to say about it. Lawler, I'll have to watch ever more Memphis than I did but I highly doubt that my opinion will change very much at this point (although I do like him a lot more now than 10 years ago). I've never watched wrestling with a more open mind than I do now actually. I find other thing to enjoy than what turned me on 10 years ago. Still, some trends of thought, some insane pimping of certain workers, I just don't get, and I won't get shy about pointing it whenever I feel like it. I don't take offense to the fact that Dan would say that Marufuji is everything bad about puroresu right now for instance. I've cooled off a whole lot over the years. If people took exception to my use of the term "trendy", well, too bad. I re-read those old thread, and I admit I found pretty amusing that my not-so serious post were dissected with such detailed attention.

I want the same analogy with Shawn Micheals. And Hulk Hogan.

I wonder what kept Lawler from getting more major programs in the WWF, especially in the mid 90's. I guess size and shape. He was getting serious heel heat, and he could very well have been a good opponent at the WWF title level from 93 to 95 against Bret or Diesel. Seems like Vince never saw him as anything more than a special attraction, which in a way is sad. I'm not sold on "Lawler is one of the greatest US worker ever" at all, but for one I thought he was terribly misused in the WWF setting.

Holy shit.

Holding onto 93 opinions? What? If I believe right now that Takada was a great worker, that makes my opinion "dated". I find this pretty silly. Anyway, denying trends of thinking is pretty silly to me too, there are trends everywhere, in every domain. Music, cinema etc... At this point, I'm more interested in seeing of those trends are evolving rather than debating workers to death. Wrestling analysis historiography entertains me more than wrestling analysis itself these days. Then, there are some new line of thinking that I will agree with, and others I won't. I don't see what the problem is.

Is it wrong to study Althusser when you're studying philosophy ? Of course not. (for those who don't know, Althusser was a structuralist philosopher, who ended up strangling his wife). Is it wrong to enjoy Robert Blake in "In Cold Blood" and "Lost Highway" ? Of course not. Is it wrong to listen to Noir Desir, arguably the best french rock band ever ? Of course not. (leader Bertrand Cantat killed his girlfriend actress Marie Trintignant, although he hit her without wanting to actually kill her) There are tons of instances like those, in pretty much every domain you can think of. Trying to erase Benoit from wresting history is pretty stupid to me. What if we erased everything Phil Spector produced ?

The last really entertaining match I can remember from Lawler was the SummerSlam brawl with Bret. Everything I've seen in the WWF since then from him has been mostly mediocre to downright embarrassing. Ok, so... Dustin Rhodes or Shiro Koshinaka ? Raven or Sandman ? Abdullah the Butcher or Bruiser Brody ? Shane Douglas or Eddie Gilbert ? Sid or Kevin Nash ?

Of course it's trendy. The Dustin Rhodes stuff was trendy too. Don't get me wrong, it had a lot of positive (like all the DVDVDVR sets), but there's always the will to get the vaunted "forgotten great worker" from under a rock, and it leads to hyperboles. Same things with music and cinema. Burn what you worshipped and get some new Gods. It's human. I don't think objectivity and measure are prevalent in wrestling analysis.

Maybe. That doesn't make it less valuable. The idea that Fujiwara was one of the greatest workers in Japan is very trendy. Doesn't make it more valuable than the other. It has became trendy to praise Fujiwara and Lawler. I echoes the feeling MJH expressed early in the thread, I'm absolutely not convinced by Lawler's case, and although Fujiwara was ridiculously underrated for a long time, I don't see the "greatest japanese worker ever" argument at all, just like I don't see the "Takada wasn't a great worker" argument at all.

Man, this is a comparison that no longer means much to people. Their loss. It's funny how out of fashion certain things go while others become the talk of the day.

Ok folks, Hulk Hogan or Dusty Rhodes ? Steven Regal or Fit Finlay ? Marty Jannetty or Davey Boy Smith ? Atsushi Onita or Mick Foley ? Mima Shimoda or Takako Inoue ?

What a tragedy that was. TAKA was one of the 10 best wrestlers in the world in 96. The WWF killed his work ethics and will to have great matches. The WWF killed the work ethics and ability out of a whole lot of workers. It's been apparent in every era of the promotion.

Hansen was already great in the 80's, carrying the no-selling Brody to great tag matches by doing the workload. He carried old Baba to super matches in the early 80's. Hansen was basically excellent for 15 years, from the late 70's to mid 90's. Vader has been great for a few years in the 90's (90/95 and then good again in AJ but not nearly as good as Hansen was there for 15 years). Don't get me wrong, I like Vader a lot, but I also agre with some of the criticism that he'd bump too easily and that he'd try to cram to much "big spots" for the sake of it. How is that a criteria, especially for a guy for worked basically his entire career in Japan? Hansen beating the shit out of Luger in 90 was fun. But like Dan says, and I mostly agree, Vader worked basically the same way everywhere, including UWF-I. People that are big on stuff like Rey adapting greatly to the WWE style should hold against Vader the fact that he couldn't adapt once he was deprived of working super stiff. Not that I would personnaly agree, but it seems like a big criteria these days.

I knew you'd catch me on that one Dan. Rey has become an efficient but typical WWE worker. Kudos for him for adapting to this dull style (and getting roided to the grill in te process). Doesn't mean I have any interest watching any of his stuff.

Hansen, easily. Longer prime, better matches, better seller, better psychology. Eddie easily. Rey WWE stint is obscenely overrated (ok, send the hate;). Eddie was better than Rey pretty much at every point of his career. Bret easily. Shawn is one of the most overrated worker ever, right next to Kurt Angle (althougyh much much better than Angle and has been excellent in his prime). Marufuji. Much more creative, in a good way, which is rare, than KENTA and more a total package in term of being able to work with difefrent kind of opponents.

That I can agree with. His WCW character was a lot worse than what he did before, because it was forced as hell. In a way I think he made the country singer gimmick work much better than the "pissed off" Jarrett which never seemed natural to me. Jarrett was at his best from 95 to 97. The "Choosen One" gimmick was terrible and didn't suit Jarrett very well to me (basically, it was HHH's real life gimmick), Jarrett was much better as a chickenshit. He did way too much compared to the actual amount of heat he recieved at this point, and the fact that he was never made to be a regular main-eventer was the killer (although I'd argue that HHH is just as bad in that respect, only he was pushed down everybody's throat forever and fed every biggest star of the business at the time). Jarrett was a very good upper mid-carder to me, but I never bought him as a main event guy.

No, not even close. Well, I don't think Angle ever worked a smart match where the smart was coming from him. The Chyna match is Jarrett's masterpiece, but maybe Patterson was here to help a lot too, although I do think Jarrett didn't really need him. Jarrett was so good in WCW in 96 and the fact that the audience didn't want him as a Horseman was what made the thing work. Jarrett had better match with Benoit and Deano than these two had working together, and in that respect, that makes him a great go along worker. And he could carry weaker people to solid matches too. Not main event potential, but I take Jarrett over HHH any day as far as who I'd enjoy to watch the most and who's the smartest and best worker in the ring.

Tricky. Of course Hardy does cool spots and insane stunts falling off ladders, but I never bought into him being a good wrestler nor a big star. Luger sucked for most of his career, but the way he worked hard against great opponent in his younger days produced much more excellent matches than Hardy ever had. Plus I loved his Total Package stint with Liz, his most fun years to watch purely because he was so good at being the character. Luger. Angle is the most overrated wrestler in history probably, and Jarrett has been criminally underrated especially since the TNA years. Jarrett all the way, I can't stand Angle's idea of a "great wrestling match". Malenko could be dull, Candido could be spotty, but Candido was much more fun to watch overall, thanks to his goofy antics and dynamic ways. Malenko was too set in his ways which on occasion took matches down (like with Rey or Benoit). Candido

Funny, I agree with all three points you make here. I'd rather watch Luger at his best than Jeff Hardy at his best, without any doubt.

At this point we can only wish that the worst doesn't happen to Angle, or to someone else because of Angle. The kids and Karen are much better off with Jeffrey than with this raving lunatic. It's mind-boggling that he hasn't been suspended at least after this shit. But no, let's keep the belt on this guy. Angle is unhealthy and fucked up in the head.

Sure, having your company represented by a complete nutcase who gets arrested for stalking and drug posession is not a problem at all.