MJH

I an "on any given day working to the best of his ability he reaches the highest; therefore he's the best" sense.

I like Finlay, I like Bryan, obviously Rey's great, I like a lot of guys, but I don't think there's honestly anyone out there right now (and there really needs to be a handful or more) at a level where being called "best in the world" actually means anything.

People need to get over the Superman Comeback. It's just a part of being a top US Babyface.

I'm not as big a fan of the 'Bloodbath' match as some people are (though I still think it's very good), but I think it's pretty clear that Shawn became a more polished, confident wrestler later on. He wasn't 'green' or 'lead by the hand' or anything like that - it's a fucking good performance from him - but to suggest he didn't get better from that point on as an individual performer is silly.

So, stumbling onto the Doc/Kawada '93 Carnival match in full on YouTube, and knowing that the full Misawa/Gordy match is out there, etc, is anyone keeping track of what classic AJ stuff has been unearthed on the Samurai shows or...?

Even ROH wouldn't do that (I hope).

WM25's run of near falls is really well put together as far as your-turn-my-turn near fall stretches go, but the match as a whole still boils down to 'do some little/big shit to kill time, reset on the dives, near falls'. It's very good, it's hard to imagine them doing it better, it saved a dire show, but one of the best matches in WWE history? No.

Yes. I remember watching his cage match with Jarrett/Kennedy a few years ago, where he damn near died, and the finish to the first fall was a slick counter into an armbar for the submission. There was a short time towards the end of his WWE run were he (at their enforcement?) toned his act way down, but that went to hell as soon as he switched to TNA.

I think the double clothesline in worse; especially when, as is most often the case, guys jump into it to get the big bump. The thing with dropkicks is, with a few exceptions of course, it's not as if guys jump up straight, hit the dropkick and turn, they often jump up sideways leading with the higher leg, and so they're already turning onto their front; it would actually be more athletically remarkable if they were to jump up that way and turn against themselves in the air and land on their back again.

By the same way a guy can take a monkey flip/backdrop/hip-toss/etc and counter by landing on his feet; he's athletic and has sufficient body control to do so. There're some spots where that idea does apply, but I don't think that's the best example.

'Objective' is the wrong world, and 'consensus opinion' (the closest I guess we have) is much less definite. James Joyce is/was a better writer than Dan Brown. There's no definite, factual way to prove that, it's not a scientific theory or what-have-you, but... I mean, how do you 'prove' one dissertation is better than another? An essay isn't a general knowledge question where there's only one correct answer.

You wanna know the best fuck up I ever had? Armdrag drills... I hit one, he hits one, I hit one, etc... anyway, at some point, I think we'd done about 10/15 each, we forgot who was bumping and who was hitting, and we both took the bump. Now, here's the thing, it felt no different to either of us, we didn't know anything had happened 'til we bumped and they laughed, and by all accounts both of our movements in the air looked like a guy getting armdragged (albeit more angled than a straight flip bump). The worst part is, try as we might, we could never do it again, it would've been a great comedy stand-off spot.

Short Answer: Probably 'yes', but in the lower regions, if only because, given how long he was in WWF/E, given how visible he was, and how many of his matches I've seen (and for the most part been entertained by) over the years when compared to most other guys, his name would come to my mind quicker than most '75-100' people, and unless I was trying to make a point (see '100/200/x wrestlers better than Shawn Michaels') I don't really care too much about placement and being too specific and accurate at that end. The problem with Shawn is the marketting. He was never the best worker in the WWF/E, though always up there for the most part, but because he could deliver the big melodramatic shit that's their bread and butter, and to a degree because they had him there from so young and could mince his growth, he was 'the guy'. And, to be fair, he has a lot of strengths, to go back to the question earlier in the thread: he's the best working 'face-in-peril' the company ever had, he moved around the ring as well as anyone, his bump-feed was as good as anyone anywhere (he might have the best/quickest straight flat-back-bump ever), he could stooge great (albeit knowlingly, but then so much of the company is to that sense) and make guys look great, he had good charisma, and he was a strong 'performer' (in the WWF/E sense) and seemed a guy naturally suited to the big arena/stadiums rather than smaller venues (perfect for WWE), and was always very visual/etc. Of course, he has plenty of weaknesses, too, some of which he himself admits (I've heard a few interviews where he admits to never being a good offensive wrestler and always being more comfortable underneath). The whole nip-up thing I find overplayed, I mean the 'SuperHuman Babyface' is a staple, y'know? I mean, sure, I much prefer the prolonged Misawa comeback, and am awed no-one has really copied it, but it's no different to the Hulk Up or whatever, and it's hardly like he'd take the top-heels finish and nip straight up (see Savage's Elbow). The reality is that the nip-up, and the Hulk Up, work in that setting. I hate the 'tune up' for Sweet Chin Music, not to mention how so many faces do a clap-along set-up for finishes now, but that, too, works in the WWE setting. And, for the record, he would sell the damage after doing the nip-up, albeit only when the previous damage/injury was to factor into the finish (smart guy ). But, yeah, I probably have Shawn in the Top 100...

Well the first to my mind is Hokuto, Dream Rush to TLTB '93 (OK, so that's about fifty-four weeks), though it's not as though she was nothing before (moreso) or after. Doc's Carnival 94->Bust is a run far-and-a-way above any other part of his career, too, as mentioned in the Yearbook thread. He was good in '93, and had moments for the first year of his return (the 3/97 match with Misawa was dire and it didn't get much better afterwards), but he stepped it up big time with his push.

I think you're over thinking what people mean when they use the term, Loss, it's just a generic term for a part of the match where one guy/girl is on offense for a stretch of time. There's really nothing more to it than that. It's useful, at least to me, precisely because it's so catch-all, whereas "shine" is specific to the babyface's control at the start of the match and "heat" to a heel's run in the middle. Besides, whether you call it "shine", "heat", "comeback," "finish", etc... you're still breaking the match down into segments; and I don't think anyone (who use them) reaches a star rating by breaking a match down into its composite parts like that, rating each individually, and then finding the mean for an overall score or something.

I don't get the talk of Dolph turning heel, myself. For a start, his bumping, to take up something Will said, is absolutely best suited for a heel - it's right out of the old stooging playbook. His character is good, and much better suited to a heel. And with the bleached hair, etc, (and remember how generic he looked when he dropped it), it all screams heel to me. But, I know what you mean about his (sorry, Jingus) control segment. There's a theory that the heel-control ought to be boring, and it then makes the crowd want the babyface to comeback even more because they're more exciting. I think that's bullshit, and a match should never be boring (Foley notwithstanding). The problem is, the WWE do seem to go along with this theory, at least to a point - even in short TV matches they'll have the heels work a g-up spot out of a 'resthold' when the workers hardly need to rest. I mean, that spot works, but that style of teaching doesn't lend itself to having heels develop ways of working an interesting (because it should be interesting, as you need to keep the people interested to keep them into the match) control. Now, I don't think Dolph was terribly exposed or anything, it was better than those First Heel Run Shawn Michaels heel controls where he'd lay in a chinlock for forever and a day (Dolph at least tries to keep them interesting with the headstands, etc), but it's something in his game that needs improving. ** Add me to the 'Cody does nothing for me' crowd, too. His facials are beyond-forced, and take me out of it immediately. In the ring, technically, mechanically, whatever, he's fine, perfectly good, and can have solid matches with a good babyface worker (which Christian certainly is). But those facials are Kelly Kelly-level.

"Getting Heat" hardly applies to face-in-control though. And no one ever said the jargon has to match, I'd sooner call the basic shine/heat/comeback-finish "three part" (for many reasons) rather than "seven points", etc... and besides, "Control Segment" is a simple, easilly understood title for "the part of the match where one guy takes over on offense", so I don't see what the problem is with the term.

I take it you noticed the boob job, though, Jerome...? But, no, I guess this is OK, and enjoyable enough in the setting as something pretty rare. I don't see much differene in quality between this and the Big Egg match, though, aside from the Dome audience had much higher expectations of women's wrestling.

Oh, if Kawada was booked to go over I'm not saying they couldn't have made it work... I just don't think, as a story, the rivalry was at the point for Kawada to win when he hadn't even come close before - Misawa couldn't have any further 'put him in his place' in their previous TC match, he didn't bother trying to beat (an admittedly injured) Kawada in the Tag League and focused on letting Kobashi get the win, etc... I mean, sure, Kawada won the Carnival, but they had a tonne of mileage left in the feud before Kawada winning was the only logical move. I'm not saying you go to 5/98 without Kawada beating him for the TC, and, like I said, I agree with you that they'd've found a way to make it work in the match itself, but you miss out 'Kawada coming close... but not quite', and 'Kawada getting his first win... in a tag match', which are big moments (and two [/three] of the best matches ever). Kawada pushing Misawa further than anyone but just letting it slip from his grasp was the right chapter at this point. Aside from Misawa not being the best guy in the world at working the knee, I wouldn't change a thing about this.

Not really. Tenryu won the TC from Jumbo. Jumbo won it back, and was still the Ace. In specific relation to the match as they worked it: Kawada gets the best of the early exchanges; Kawada takes the first serious control; Kawada (iirc) has the first run of near falls; Kawada battles through Misawa's big flurry that had beat him before; if, instead of the rolling kick that knocks Misawa out of the ring into the staredown, Kawada then hits another powerbomb to win, it's been a pretty dominant and decisive win for him. The jump from 7/93 to that (with Kawada over) is massive; Kawada didn't really come close to beating him before; there was more mileage in him losing. Where do they go from here in singles with Kawada going over? Misawa 'gets his win back', but the story is done. I don't have any problems with how the story plays out through 7/95. I'm not saying it was perfectly done, nor that you couldn't re-jig a few things so they get to that point sooner (and then to Kawada's eventual win sooner). But then from 7/95 you have another 17 months before Kawada gets a big win (which was even less of one than the first), and then a further 7 months before their next TC match, by which point it's mid-97 and they haven't progressed much at all in three years... that's what killed Kawada as a 'substitute' when Misawa went down; not him losing here.

No...

Kawada shouldn't have gone over. He hadn't come close to pushing Misawa to his limit in singles to this point. This was the match where he did that. From a story-telling perspective, this was the match where Kawada should have got the job done: Misawa was hurt, Kawada had the momentum, carried it over to this match, and was far more dominant/successful than he'd been remotely close to against Misawa at this point; Kawada eventually 'lost his head' again in the showdown and paid for it. Him going over here would have made it an almost 'changing of the guard' type thing (which it shouldn't have been, obviously). But anyway, yeah, this is sublime.

I'm much less into Fujiwara than a lot of people - I recall not liking this much at all a few years ago, nor am I too keen on the Choshu match - but, yes, I loved those Sayama matches in particular.

They were too obvious not to be known ahead of time...

Going into a match cold or 'not understanding the history' is so overplayed, but it's true of anything: the more you know and understand the wrestlers, the company, the feuds, etc., the more the matches will resonate with you.