MJH

Whose not sleeping around whilst at uni/college? What's the next big revelation, that she 'experimented with marijuana'? More to the point, does anyone care about that now? Edit: Maybe he dislikes Stephanie? Maybe he's repeating the quote moreorless as it was given to him? "Everybody else did" is know about it, too.

I like Drew fine, he's improved greatly, but standards aren't quite that low.

Maybe he did in Hustle, but you can see him calling spots in All Japan. Don't forget Kawada's not exactly known for his ease with gaijins, either.

Well All Japan's main events were clearly planned out in advance. That much is obvious just from how they work. Even in Flair/Steamboat, guys who've worked together "on the fly" as much as anyone, you just don't get sequences that complicated without planning it. It's physically impossible to call an elaborate transition like they did on the fly, and even if those spots were coming out of lengthy headlocks where the guys can talk almost freely, Kawada'd be asking Misawa to remember 12-points on the spur of the moment. It's just not feasible in any way. Were they entirely planned out spot for spot? No. Besides the obvious fact that you can see them calling spots, it's a waste of your memory to memorise, say, a standard control segment on a spot-for-spot basis when it's easilly called or cued. There's exceptions of course. Misawa/Kobashi 10/97 is clearly orchestrated so as to "mirror" each other. I forget who actually goes second of the two but it's crazy to suppose he'd call his own spots whilst having to recall on the fly the spots that the other had given him (not to mention moreorless following the same order). Taking 6/3/94... the opening sequences are planned out beforehand, there's no doubt in my mind. Everything through Kawada countering a waistlock into an armbar (I think that's it, definitely an armbar). By the deliberation he takes in manoeuvring into the wristlock, it's also clear he's calling the next spot. That spot being the head-flip into an elbow and then I think a dropkick where he powders. It's a simple 2-point sequence that he could call really quickly and easilly without giving Misawa anything much to remember; "flip, elbow, whip (more likely cued), dropkick". Kawada being Kawada, he does his trademark collapse on the elbow (clearly an ad-lib by Misawa's reaction, although he reacts quickly enough and it's hardly awkward, he knew what he was doing). The spot on the floor would be planned, too, as Kawada "winning" these sequences is clearly a focal point of the match/its story/etc. Maybe the deliberation on the armbar is a rouse (sp), as it seems odd to have what appears an ad-lib in the middle of two planned sequences. I'm fairly sure it's called, though, maybe Misawa forgot the spot, maybe Kawada's just re-calling the planned spots and pacing them an extra 10 seconds... and you might as well have one of the guys go over the next spot or two anytime you grab a chance to talk. But then when you get to Kawada working the neck and Misawa working the knee (for the first time IIRC... that might be were Baba came?), they're both fairly generic control segments that hardly set the world on fire where nothing complicated is going on. Between the sleeper, the facelock/chinlock etc from Kawada - where you can see him calling spots and then covering it - it's ad-libbed. However, the majority of the match is clearly planned-out. It's pretty much (amongst other things) the height of All Japan transitions, and like I said, those are not being ad-libbed. The overall "arc" of the match, of Kawada pushing Misawa a lot further than before, of getting the better of much of the match, surviving what put him away before, leading to the big staredown and losing his cool before Misawa pulls out the trump card. All of that is clearly composed. As for how much of it is Baba and how much is them... short of specific instances (the most controversial being the backdrop driver with Kobashi/Doc), I don't believe Baba is telling them on a move-by-move basis. I would say, though, that the ideology, for lack of a better word, is probably Baba. The "big picture", as John said, is Baba. For 6/3/94 something like "Kawada pushes Misawa much closer than before, but loses his cool/falls short in the end". Leaving them to go about doing it. He might have a short conversation with them on the day of the show, amending/discussing what they have planned, et cetera, but Baba had far too much on his plate running the company and the shows as a whole to spend the whole day with them going over every detail. And, really, what does it matter? It's like the whole George Martin debate, how much did he bring to the Beatles music etc... who really cares so long as we get the great music as the end result?

Actually that was Jerad (JHM). We just happen to have similar initials... .

I think - with the exception of Bret/Austin (see below) - we're actually arguing in agreement, John. My point isn't that "callbacks" or "playing off" doesn't exist. It does, very much so, and I love it when it works well. My point is that some people take the idea way too far. Hell, I've been guilty of it myself in the past. ... As far as the Bret/Austin thing goes, I think calling it a "submission" match is something of a misnomer. It wasn't even Angle vs. Benoit in that sense. Austin was never going into that match trying to submit Bret with a hold. I'm foggy on the TV build up, but I'm 99% that Austin was building his side of the match that he planned to "beat Bret into submission". Ultimately, it's a minor thing one way or the other. Personally, putting myself in the Patterson role, I wouldn't've done that spot were it suggested by someone (and it quite possibly was). If the goal's for Austin to come out as the sympathetic figure, I would not have any notable amount of time with Bret as the sympathetic figure in the match. Nothing that people would remember (which I think they definitely would with that spot). Austin would have his time on offence, of course, but I'd give Bret the majority of the stretch. And, aside from a real moment of desperation, and even then only perhaps, I wouldn't have Austin use a submission as a serious threat. I don't think it fits in with his gimmick and character by that point. The same reason I wouldn't have Hansen use a figure-four or whatever. I'd've maybe got a kick out of it had they done it (especially with the bell already being involved as a double WM8 callback too), but I wouldn't have scripted it in the match. Like I said, though, it'd be a very minor thing one way or the other. It's not "should Shawn have nipped-up" or whatever.

But... the goal of Mania is to make Austin come out the sympathetic figure. Had they done the Dream spot, that's a big spot in the match where Bret's the sympathetic figure. Presumably, as well, it would have to feature down the stretch. Now, it's a No DQ match, so making the ropes even is not an option. The only way out of the spot is for Bret to counter. In a different company, perhaps, the idea that Bret was able to counter and is the superior wrestler, whereas Austin, whilst the inferior grappler and as such unable to spring a counter, was too tough to quit, that might work. In the WWF? They just want Austin is too tough to quit. Besides, Bret's turning heel in the stretch and afterwards, so why the big babyface spot for him in the midst of that? ... On the subject of the tag league "finals" five years apart, I'm generally in agreement. And whilst I'm not a particularly big fan of their matches, Ohtani/Liger is an example where I fully believe it's intentional as well. A better example of the happenstance might by how the powerbombs supposedly figure up in Tenryu/Jumbo and Misawa/Kawada. Or maybe that's the Dark Side of the Moon/Wizard of Oz of wrestling. In the same match, though, I've read people bear great significance into the backdrop from Misawa. There's a 'chance', perhaps, that, after losing the opening strike sequence, it's a way for him to re-establish himself using a move synononmous with the "ace" role, but in all likelihood, he just needed move x and that was emphatic enough whilst being mid-level to fit the bill. There's plenty of examples, of course. If people want to do it, great. But wrestling's fundamentally simple. The idea that All Japan didn't have faces/heels, that Kawada wasn't playing the chickenshit role at the start of 5/94 tag, etc... there's often a strong stench of "we must glorify this as serious art" about it, y'know? It's wrestling.

Well there's obviously a world of difference between a "progression" of matches in fairly quick succession, and spots that resurface in a similar manner. Only a few months ago I read something alone the lines of Kobashi's match with '03 GHC defense against Honda (or at least a sequence down the stretch) played off his '99 match with Mike Awesome. The instances of matches "playing off" one another years later is a short list anyway (I'm thinking the '03 Misawa/Kobashi ramp-spot onwards as one, but that's a match they wanted to have years earlier anyway), the idea that Kobashi would play off a hardly-well-known match four years earlier is just... And, of course, you also have instances were people are so enamoured with the idea of matches "playing off" each other that they call for it where it wouldn't remotely fit. The idea that Austin/Hart at Mania is a lesser match than it could've been if they'd only repeated the Survivor Series finish and have Bret trapped because pinfalls don't count. Ignoring that that particular spot wouldn't have remotely fit into what they were trying to do at Mania. Like so many things it's cool when done effectively as part of a bigger idea, but not much on it's own, and actually a rather silly thing to purely base a match around. What's the Ebert essay regarding Travolta/Thurman dancing for no reason other than it "plays off" Pulp Fiction?

The best learned psychology I ever read about was to do with Punk/Joe. Punk dodged the Ole Kick in the second match (so he learned to dodge a kick to the face, basically), and Joe finally figured out a headlock counter of some sort? (some ace).

Hasn't it always been somewhat in vogue? Or, y'know... overstated? It probably grew out of the whole Anderson thing where the commentators would constantly harp on about "picking a body part and going to work on it". But it's really pretty silly. If all your match has going for it story-wise is "a guy works the arm/leg/whatever" than it's not really much of one. And, of course, the "best singles match ever" Misawa/Kawada has a 10-minute (ish?) section of a "neck" control and a "leg" control that they "blow off", but I don't think I've come across anyone criticising that match on account of it.

Must see high flyers match: Even were I not critical of it, and loved it as much as most, I'm not sure if Ohtani/Samurai fits the bill as "high fliers" match. I still think Rey/Eddy is the closest we have to perfect "high flying" juniors math, as oposed to just a spectacular straight-ahead spotfest. Must see match with blood: Have to agree with Hokuto/Kandori. Must see mat work: I'd have Destroyer/Baba as a "must see '60s match" rather than specifically for matwork. I'd put the Han/Tamura series and Tamura/Kohsaka. Must see gimmick match: Thunderqueen? HBK/Razor I is very important in terms of WWF/E gimmick matches. TLC I (SummerSlam) is too. I'm not as big a Vader/Sting fan as others, really. Must see world title bout: Of course it's Misawa vs Kawada. Must see 1970s match: Again I've gotta agree with John on Terry/Jumbo. Must see 1980s match: The best match is Jumbo/Tenryu. One of the Flair/Steamboat matches have to be seen for reputation, my favourite being Clash. Maeda/Takada is vital for Japan. Must see 1990s match: Must see tag match: One is 6/95 the other is 12/96. Must see cage match: See previous post about LCO vs. Ito/Watanabe.

The only link between homosexuality and paedophilia is how they've essentially swapped places in society over the last 100-odd years. But chalk me up as another one surprised by Kenny. I knew he was religious, but not to that degree.

The notion that England is a 'liberal' or 'tolerant' country in relation to the rest of the world only speaks badly of the rest of the world.

Oh, and people in England are too busy focusing their prejudice and hatred on Muslims, Eastern Europeans, Asylum Seekers, Benefits Cheats etc... to spend any focus on (much smaller) anti-black racism.

Eh, words are only as offensive as their context. Is 'Woman Is The Nigger Of The World' remotely racist? Besides, aren't we all African anyway? I digress, I mean, whatever Anarchist may or may not have said in the past, finding Scorpio overrated is hardly grounds for accusations of KKK membership, nor would that bare any relevance to a wrestling discussion. But whilst we're on the subject of PC (the last page or two are going to be sliced soon anyway), what's the status on "Negro" now? Have we turned Atticus Finch into a posthumous racist?

Well, let's be honest, women just do hate better than men. . You really have to see the '97 tag though. The finish is more brutal, and the match is more dramatic than the wild chaos of Bull/Aja. I preferred the tags in that feud, to be honest.

Oh, God, I haven't watched that show in years... though I recall it being a really good show and the best top-to-bottom card of the NJ/AJ feud. I guess there's a chance of confusion there, but Muta/Hase 90/92 are very different matches to Muto/Hase 01, and are also significantly more well-known over the years. Like John, I always thought they were famous for the blood/Mutascale primarilly. A point on Hase, though, and maybe it's me, but I've always found him one of the most dynamic wrestlers. 'Dynamic' might not be the correct word, but he always came across as superbly athletic without doing the flying spots we associate with that. In a New Japan setting in particular, it works really well.

I didn't like the match with Hashimoto at all the last time I saw it, so I'm in the same boat as Res in that regard. I always preferred Liger as the dominant force, anyway, rather than as an underdog.

I never really thought the matwork was anything other than your standard fare for New Japan, and partly for that reason I always preferred Hase's match with Chono because they got out of it far sooner. Then again, I'm so apathetic to New Japan's obligatory opening/time-killing matwork at this point that there's a chance I just zoned out on it. I really like both Hase/Hash matches, mind, though like John I prefered the '94 one. I wouldn't call either more than bordrline/outside MOTYC, but they were both key factors in the NJ Heavyweight Re-evaluation when most people soured on the juniors.

For Takako, I'd recommend 1/24 vs. Kyoko, vs. Harley (the rib injury), there's the w/Hotta vs. Kansai/Ozaki tags, the Dream Slam I tag, the 9/5 tag w/Hotta vs. Hokuto/Minami... I'm not sure there's anything else off the top of my head. The Dream Slam II 'clown-punt' trios is great fun. It seems with every notable Joshi match on the yearbook we're talking about matches x, y and z that should've gone on though. At the end of the day, I don't think the exact goal is the have "The 100 Best Matches From 1993", otherwise we're talking about a very strong domination by the two AJs. But, Loss, if these matches have perked your interest, or anyone elses, the good news is there's plenty more, so it's probably a good thing. When's the last time people have been talking about even classic Joshi, anyway?

What's funny about the DX vs. Miz/Morrison match now is how they're clearly selling Morrison as the breakout of the team. But, yeah, all considered by WWE standards, they did make Mix/Morrison look good.

Takako just wasn't on the level of some of the other girls. She also suffers because unlike Shimoda, Takako's team with Kyoko emphasised her lesserness as a workrate machine, rather than emphasised her strengths.

Yeah, the idea that having money somehow means a person can't be upset/angry/whatever is rather silly. It'd be one thing were Brock to exploit his fame in the media, sign magazine deals etc... and then turn around on them. If you're a naturally private person (as all signs point to Brock being) then all the money in the world isn't going to make it a pleasant experience.

One of the rare times I totally agree with Alvarez was, I think, in their recap of last week's show. "Luke's by far the best contestant left, but can he do anything that Alex Riley can't? Isn't he just a smaller version of Alex Riley?".

I'm right in thinking you discovered this much later, Ditch? IIRC, your 'tag' on your site read something like 'I thought I'd seen all the great AJPW matches from 1993... then I saw this'. My discovery of it was fairly similar, I found it tucked away on a very very grainy "History of AJPW Volume 3" VHS (or something to that effect). It actually listed the match as "Misawa and Kawada SHOOT ON EACH OTHER!" and given the intensity with which Misawa and Kawada go at each other in the middle, I'm surprised this didn't have a bit more fame. But, yeah, All Japan is the only company where a match this great could fall by the wayside. I guess Zenjo, too, but this is a better match than any US match on the set.