MJH
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Basically, if hockey is played/televised prominently in that country, it's Gretzky. He's the best player ever and his stats are so far ahead of everyone else that it's ridiculous (doesn't he even have more assists than the second placed guys have goals and assists combined?). But he wasn't a Michael Jordan/Tiger Woods figure, either, who completely transcended his sport. Not to anywhere near the same degree. People are more likely to know the Mighty Ducks than they are the Oilers.
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You're overestimating the popularity of NA sports worldwide. Even Jackie Robinson is a non-entity here from experience. Ruth's about the only baseball player people know. The NFL's popular enough, but I don't think there's a name known in the mainstream. Basketball has Jordan, and I'd say you're more likely to find people who know maybe Kobe, Shaq and LeBron to figures from other sports. Every time I've mentioned hockey I've gotten an "oh, you mean ICE hockey" so I don't think Gretsky's anywhere near as well known as Bret. Bret's hardly a mainstream figure, of course, but just about everyone between 22-27 would know him from the early '90s boom and presumably their parents too. He's behind the various WoS names who people remember (Daddy, Haystacks, McManus, Pallo, Les Kellet etc) and behind Hogan, Rock, Austin... but he'd be significantly more known than Gretsky. But St. Pierre hasn't a hope of a case.
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I thought Del Rio looked (understandably) tentative at times during the ladder match actually. The show was good top-to-bottom though, superior to WrestleMania. I'll second that comment about "compromised to a permanent end" line, too. He's not the biggest mass murderer since WW2 though, that'd be Mao, although who knows the actual figures for innocent civilian casualties by US/UK and various other armed forces? Why not "captured dead"? I'm assuming what with Taker that "dead" is an ok word.
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'Cheap heat' works purely because it is (at least in theory) 'offensive'. Using Lance's rationale, if more things than ever are construed as offensive, then there's more stuff to be used for cheap heat, rather than the reverse. Of course there has to be a line (and burning a flag is really nothing) but it's only an audience who don't get offended (and, say, laugh at the attempt) where cheap heat doesn't work. I don't remember precisely but were the Dudleys ever actually 'hated' for their spiels in ECW, or did the crowd not find it more amusing? I don't think it's a 'loss of kayfabe' thing. I mean, supposed 'genuine' heat, sure, like a heel getting stabbed or shot, that isn't going to happen (thankfully). But no one goes to a wrestling show who isn't in the spirit of getting "into the show" anyway...
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The 1/24 trios and 9/5 tag are two very notable omissions. I've always been quite partial to Hokuto/Toyota vs. Aja/Sakie from 11/12, though it falls apart a bit. If the idea is a strong Hokuto focus on the Joshi front though, I'd've included both that and the 8/25 Kazama match ahead of this tag. But it's a question of what's available. I think I outlined it in another match discussion, but there's maybe 20 (25 max) matches of here's on tape for the year. 8/21 vs. Toyota is to come. I'm not as keen on the second Kandori match as some, but the 12/10 Tag Final (double match) is possibly my favourite Joshi tag ever. I'm not denying that her year hasn't been somewhat overrated over the years given you're very right to say the AJPW three have a larger collection of "great" (or thereabouts) matches for 1993 (and years after). But it's an impressive output worthy of acclaim either way - if you're going to use one woman's year to say "hey look what these Jap girls can do" then it's probably the best.
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Totally agree, it's really his match more than Bret's given the nature of the story.
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He (or she) would be an all-time great worker, they always come in handy.
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Well, OK, we obviously don't need an Angle debate. One thing a lot of people pointed to after WrestleMania is that the company shouldn't be reliant on Taker to deliver the strong match on the show (whether or not you think the match with Hunter was great or awful, it was the only one designed to really be memorable). It's much easier to just label it the "good hand". People who you can plug anyone into a match with and it'll be good, who younger guys can work with and develop, who can be relied upon to deliver good matches almost time-in, time-out, etc... I don't think it's that barren. The thing with the WWE, too, is that there's a large safety net. Between the agents mapping out the matches and the company "style" being what it is (regardless of your thoughts on it), there are a few guys who can be relied upon to have "a good WWE match" every time. I think Danielson's wildly overrated as the "great worker of his generation", but he's delivered relatively strong matches when given time on PPV. His matches also, crucially, get over when given time, even if he's not "over" in the sense of getting a big pop on his entrance. There's also Punk. And Rey, obviously. I wouldn't call any of them "great" because of the silliness of the paint-by-numbers matches, but within the WWE setting I think they fit the bill. --- Incidentally, when was Lesnar face?
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Well he didn't get a single Grammy nomination until 1998 off the back of that album... . The 1992 cut-off is probably a bit late, anyway, as Loss pointed out. Mainly to incorporate the Rumble and the stuff with Savage (though I don't think that is "great"). But there is no way I'm buying Flair as a "top level" worker beyond that. Of course there's good stuff, but Flair's not a Top 10 worker in 1993, or at any point thereafter. The more interesting point to me, if you're arguing longevity, is when you start your date-line; how far back into the '70s can you say he was "great"? As in, on the level of the top workers like Terry, Jumbo, Billy, Bock, Harley etc... he's great by '83 at the absolutely latest, probably a couple of years by that point (and probably peaks around the middle of the decade rather than '89, I'd argue), but fifteen years as a top level worker isn't exactly mind-blowingly longer than others. To use the obvious comparison, we can confidently say Jumbo was Top 5 by 1976 and that lasted until 1992 (and he probably had a few more in there but for the illness).
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I thought their house show match (ie; Barcelona) was a better actual match, but this capped a hell of a 1-2-3 night for Bret. One of my favourite ever shows for predominently that reason.
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I've always thought this was one of the best matches ever in the WWF/E. I'd flip-flop between this and Owen as Bret's best match. But, at the same time, it's not even close to being a MOTYC.
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I never thought this was *that* bad, but then again, I've always liked Yoko and thought the Taker Casket match was a really fun five-minute match before the angle.
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I've always preferred this to their Rumble match, but it's nothing on the match with Hennig. Semi-related note, I've always loved the setting of this show. Maybe it's my own nostalgia but it seemed, 'colourful', I don't know.
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But, again, how can you include promos in the discussion when talking on a world-wide level? Even if you're fluent in both Japanese and Spanish, they're just not as important there. If you're limiting yourself to a US-based field, then sure. How does Kobashi's notoriously-awkward interviews affect him in any way?
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No one is going to roll their eyes at Flair as the default response as much as, say, the WWE using Shawn (which even he seems to disagree with), but calling it a "slam dunk" is silly, even just within the US. Flair's longevity as a "top level" worker was fifteen years at best (definitely ends in 1992; depends how early you want to start but it doesn't go too far back into the '70s) which isn't any greater than a lot of guys, and it's not as if people haven't been making very strong arguments for other people for years (Terry probably being the strongest, for me, though I can see cases for Eddy and Austin if one wants to figure drawing too, he's not *that* far down a list of "workers"... Lawler'd get his fans of course). Flair's Top 10 (though you can pick apart his work easilly enough if one wanted to leave him out of that level), but I'm not the only one who wouldn't have him Top 5 much less an "obvious" #1.
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Eh. For me Benoit and (to a lesser extent in Japan) Eddy are the two '90s juniors whose work holds up to roughly what the consensus was at the time. I also have the '96 BOSJ-Semi as the best juniors match of the decade. I've got no problem calling myself a "Benoit fan" still and I've never had a problem watching his matches since the murders. I still love Phil Spector's Christmas Album, I still love some Roman Polanski films, and had Brian Wilson done something similar when he was out to lunch it wouldn't make me love Pet Sounds any less, ditto had Pete Townshend been convicted or if Dylan/McCartney whomever decided to do a Gary Glitter either. I really doesn't bother me and I feel no "moral" incentive to distance myself from commenting positively on him. I would not argue Benoit for "best ever". Best Canadian/Top 5 NA? Sure. The same arguments that've always been levelled against him still stand, at least to a degree as I define "charisma" as different to "showmanship" and he got over well everywhere. Nor do I factor promos (even if you speak fluent Japanese/Spanish, they're not as much of a focal point in Japan/Mexico). There're others who have more great matches, but Benoit was *blatantly* great for years, and at his best, no-one touches him for delivery.
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I don't remember the crowd being particularly dead... but the Toyota/Fukuoka match right before this (I think?) was very run-of-the-mill. I recall the match being very good, but a tad routine. The Joshi selection is a bit... strange, I guess, at times on the set. The notable match on this show, for me, was the main event. I can understand 60:00s getting left off unless essential for the sake of space, but whilst this match is probably better than a lot of matches on the set, it's not as if Hokuto got the big win here or something to make it notable beyond that.
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I agree completely. You could also plug just about anyone into a match with him and it would be "good". But I suppose the point we can come back to (and God knows it's not a new one) but technique is only half of it. Heck, not even that. I mean, to go back to music, Hendrix sure as shit wasn't the best guitar player 'technically'. In fact, he was downright sloppy and unorthodox as hell. Clapton was much "cleaner", not to mention the post-EVH "shredders" who can play Flight of the Bumblebee note perfect at 250bpm [i suppose they'd be the musical Davey Richards?]. Because that's the product, the output, the "song", the artist's work, etc... I'll agree with you to a point, though, concerning your argument about vs. Arn. 1995 Kawada is not going to be having great matches with scrubs. He'll look like the great fucking wrestler he is but the "output" won't be great. The same way the best singer of all time singing shit will still be a crap song and Dylan singing Dylan is great. And I don't think the matches should be the sole, singular criteria. But, at the same time, it really isn't. No one says Kawada was great just because he had that match (be it whichever obvious choice you want). I don't actually think people are disputing that DiBiase was "great" (or at least, nothing less than "very good"). But if you take the matches with Bret, with Shawn, they're nice safe matches. It's not as if they didn't have the time to have a great match. Between, I don't know, the schedule, the setting, the run-in finishes, whatever it was, they just set out to have a "nice" "good" match, did that, and were fine with it. I think DiBiase's argument against the All Japan guys might actually reveal more about him. "They work harder than they have to". I mean, I know what he's saying is what ultimately happened and you reach a point where the fans are disensitised (sp?) and the majority of stuff that could be finishes aren't over at all, etc... but it's still a strange choice of words to use. I think he was just happy having as good a match as was required without really pushing himself and going all out to have a "classic". Could he? No one's going to say he wasn't a very talented worker. But the reality is we just don't know. And we can't call him an "all-time great" as a result. Which is hardly a massive critique.
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Yeah. I didn't mean they weren't trying to have a great match. Perhaps the actual argument is better illustrated with Misawa/Kawada in singles, where they probably could've done, say, a more spectacular and even match the first time out. It might not have exactly fitted into the storylines but that wouldn't stop people nowadays having their best "five-star" spectacular match. But they leave themselves somewhere to go. You can say the same about Misawa/Kobashi 1/97. That's a much bigger, grander match, but you've the entire story of Kobashi overtaking Misawa to play out later. Where have, I don't know, KENTA and Marufuji had to go since their first match together? It's not the same situation exactly (and they're not in the same league outside of athleticism and execution) but... my point is they worked the match knowing it was the first of many and didn't blow their load right away. I don't know how many people have had that patience since.
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Flair and Michaels have done much better jobs at "carrying" Rumble matches. If you take Shawn out of the 1995 one, it's half the length of the others but would seem to drag twice as long. I do, however, really like the DiBiase/Michaels match from SanAntonio. I found it about twelve years ago on a "WWF's Hottest Matches" (I think?) CHV. It's a strong house show match, but it's not the basis, by any stretch of the imagination, for any claims on DiBiase as an "all-time great" worker. No one makes the claim for Hennig anymore (if they ever, really) but his stuff with Bret, especially the KOTR match, was significantly better. I mean, if someone says "Ted was great", then I'm not going to labour the point with them. He was clearly a real strong talent, and I enjoy watching him work almost every single time he's on my TV whether it's as a skit, an interview, an angle, or a match. All-Time Great? No. But he deserves a strong rep.
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The problem for this match, obviously, is the same as for any second/third 'tier' All Japan. It's just lost in the shuffle, even though it's their first match which normally gives something an extra touch of fondness or whatever. It probably cracks the Top 25 'Tag Matches Of The Decade', but then the same 4/5 guys are in 15 matches or so above it. What is worth noting though, and I don't think you'd get it now, is their restraint. They didn't go out there to have The Best Match Ever. They stuck within the framework of the company and their characters and storylines etc and so they had somewhere to go with it later.
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Savage was a star, Elizabeth (or Sable) would not have overshadowed him. He'd've been a top guy in 1998, 2008, or any time.
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Volk Han/Kiyoshi Tamura
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Why on Earth would you book at match at any show but WrestleMania? I'm not saying you announce it 364 days ahead of time, but that's a different question...
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Don't forget that Luger's push didn't exactly set the world on fire, either. Your point still remains, of course, it's not as though Angle was pushed as a face and they quickly turned him due to an apathetic reaction or whatever. And 1993 WWF audience is vastly different from their audience of five years later. Duggan was always over working a similar gimmick, of course, but then you have to figure nostalgia into that, too.